Fake SILVER

[beauanderos]

Counterfeiting Gov't Rounds carries stiff fines and legal actions if done. Not only are you counterfeiting a govt product, your counterfeiting currency which is a big no-no.

For example if you see fake Silver Maples this may reduce the trust and popularity of these coins. You can bet the Canadian Govt and Royal Mint aint going to sit and let that happen. In fact China is the only govt in the world that does NOT care about people counterfeiting Govt coins which is odd.

I do not by any Chinese products for this reason

Really? Because China has been cranking out fake Maples for a couple years. You can buy them in bulk for less than $1 a piece.



There is also fake 90% out there, though it's mainly key dates and dollars. Still, when 90% is traded in bulk, it would be very easy for a few fakes mixed in to slide through unnoticed.

How do you even test these then? I dont even have a scale, and have some maples. Just bought a roll from a member here actually. Happens to be 2011 like in the video.

this is what I use:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AWS-600g-Gold-Silver-Jewelry-Coin-Pocket-Digital-Scale-Grams-0-1g-/380413435792?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5892685f90

[Copper Catcher]

I have talked to a few on here from time to time about all the fakes that I have seen for sale.

For obvious reasons I will not disclose the sites but I can confirm that they are selling tons of fakes.

A few examples I have seen include: 1oz silver plated brass Sunshine Eagle Mint bars. They have silver clad plated Stagecoach Bars, Pan American Bars, US Morgan Silver Bar, Engelhard 1oz Prospector Rounds, Canada Maple Leafs, Australian Kangaroos, Dragons, Koalas as well as the Kookaburra!

Oh yea, you can buy a American Eagles too!

I've also seen gold plated 1oz Krugerrands, 1oz American Buffalos! They are selling Basically you name it they are probably producting and selling it! They also are the ones who are making the 1 gram "pure silver bar" like the American buffalo bullion/American flag. Who knows what precentage of silver or if there is any real silver in them either....

[beauanderos]

I have talked to a few on here from time to time about all the fakes that I have seen for sale.

For obvious reasons I will not disclose the sites but I can confirm that they are selling tons of fakes.

A few examples I have seen include: 1oz silver plated brass Sunshine Eagle Mint bars. They have silver clad plated Stagecoach Bars, Pan American Bars, US Morgan Silver Bar, Engelhard 1oz Prospector Rounds, Canada Maple Leafs, Australian Kangaroos, Dragons, Koalas as well as the Kookaburra!

Oh yea, you can buy a American Eagles too!

I've also seen gold plated 1oz Krugerrands, 1oz American Buffalos! They are selling Basically you name it they are probably producting and selling it! They also are the ones who are making the 1 gram "pure silver bar" like the American buffalo bullion/American flag. Who knows what precentage of silver or if there is any real silver in them either....

are you saying the bigger (they're all probably tiny) one gram bar vendors here in the States don't mint their own stuff? They shop it out?
CMC? Sure hope not, I love their little pieces

[Copper Catcher]

I will send you a pm.... then you can decide.

[93_Confirmed]

This is a timely topic because I got duped on eBay last week. I've been using the strategy of sniping newly listed BINs hoping to snag good deals. So i spot a bundle of (2) 1oz bars - Sunshine & Silvertowne going for spot with free shipping. Seemed like a reasonable price and the pics and description looked legit so I purchased. A few hours later I had time to review the listing and sure enough they're clad fakes.

I got a refund quickly and confronted the seller on why he's selling fakes. The guy says he bought 15 of these bars thinking they were real and was duped himself so he's passing his misfortune on to someone else so he can buy real silver. He told to blame China not him. This nonsense is very disheartening for a new stacker and now I'm questioning the authenticity of my entire stack!

[natsb88]

I have talked to a few on here from time to time about all the fakes that I have seen for sale.

For obvious reasons I will not disclose the sites but I can confirm that they are selling tons of fakes.

A few examples I have seen include: 1oz silver plated brass Sunshine Eagle Mint bars. They have silver clad plated Stagecoach Bars, Pan American Bars, US Morgan Silver Bar, Engelhard 1oz Prospector Rounds, Canada Maple Leafs, Australian Kangaroos, Dragons, Koalas as well as the Kookaburra!

Oh yea, you can buy a American Eagles too!

I've also seen gold plated 1oz Krugerrands, 1oz American Buffalos! They are selling Basically you name it they are probably producting and selling it! They also are the ones who are making the 1 gram "pure silver bar" like the American buffalo bullion/American flag. Who knows what precentage of silver or if there is any real silver in them either....

are you saying the bigger (they're all probably tiny) one gram bar vendors here in the States don't mint their own stuff? They shop it out?
CMC? Sure hope not, I love their little pieces

CMC's ownership is Canadian, but production is overseas. They do make gold plated Krugs, Eagles, Kangaroos, etc. but they are all marked "COPY" on at least one side. And their plated silver products are marked "100 mils" to indicate that it is plated. I sent a few random samples of CMC .999 products out for testing when I first starting carry their stuff and they all came back correct. CMC also mints under the name Rising Sun Mint and makes custom products for a whole host of private "mints." I'm not going to rattle off all the names, but if they are a small brand with products in the same style as the CMC products, that's likely where they are coming from.

Factories in China often produce for multiple companies, and will sometimes use one customer's equipment to produce stuff for somebody else, or will make extra and sell them on their own without going through the brand. That's one of the ways you wind up with "grey market" brand name products. There's very much a "pirate" aspect to manufacturing and business in China...make and take what you can until somebody physically stops you. If they have buyers for fakes, they'll make fakes. So while it's within the realm of possibility that fakes are being made under the same roof, it's not under the direction, management, or distribution of CMC, but rather the factory/manager acting independently. China can make real high quality stuff, and they can also make garbage; it's all about what you order and what you're willing to pay.

To reiterate, I have never come across a CMC product, Rising Sun product, or any of the other private brands they mint, that was anything other than what it claimed to be. But obviously there are places in China making fakes as well.

[Copper Catcher]

93_Confirmed I too have questioned if what I have is all real. Most was purchased when silver was cheap and through major dealers....But it still makes me very uneasy!

[aloneibreak]

This is a timely topic because I got duped on eBay last week. I've been using the strategy of sniping newly listed BINs hoping to snag good deals. So i spot a bundle of (2) 1oz bars - Sunshine & Silvertowne going for spot with free shipping. Seemed like a reasonable price and the pics and description looked legit so I purchased. A few hours later I had time to review the listing and sure enough they're clad fakes.

I got a refund quickly and confronted the seller on why he's selling fakes. The guy says he bought 15 of these bars thinking they were real and was duped himself so he's passing his misfortune on to someone else so he can buy real silver. He told to blame China not him. This nonsense is very disheartening for a new stacker and now I'm questioning the authenticity of my entire stack!

now THATS integrity right there

i run a magnet over and weigh everything i get - do the same and you'll be fine

[Copper Catcher]

aloneibreak I wish it were that simple....Silver plated brass is not magnetic.

I think everyone is missing the bigger pictute too that 10% of China's GDP is based off of selling counterfiet goods of all types.....

It has been estimated that over 10% of the part in American commerical airplanes are actually fake!

Also......

"The Government Accountability Office, through a fictitious company, recently requisitioned parts from China in order to determine if the Chinese government was living up to its promises of battling counterfeit parts. The report from the GAO found that '334 of 396 vendors who offered to sell parts to the fictitious company were from China' and that 'all 16 parts eventually purchased by the fake company came from 13 China-based vendors and all were determined by an independent testing laboratory to be counterfeit.' The parts requested were supposedly for use in F-15s, MV-22 Ospreys, and nuclear submarines, and were requested as new parts. The report (PDF) also says that in the past three years, over one million counterfeit parts came from Chinese companies. This stands in sharp contrast to the Chinese government's promise to clamp down on the production of counterfeit parts in China."

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/03/29 ... from-china

[natsb88]

i run a magnet over and weigh everything i get - do the same and you'll be fine

Many (most) of the modern fakes are copper or brass plated with .999 silver. They won't stick to a magnet and a quick surface acid test may very well pass. They are also pretty darn close to the correct weight, within a couple tenths of a gram. That means the volume has to be larger than the real silver counterpart, and that difference is usually made up in thickness. The thickness can be disguised by selling them in capsules. They are also slightly thicker, but the casual buyer may not notice or know to look for it.

[OneBiteAtATime]

i run a magnet over and weigh everything i get - do the same and you'll be fine

Many (most) of the modern fakes are copper or brass plated with .999 silver. They won't stick to a magnet and a quick surface acid test may very well pass. They are also pretty darn close to the correct weight, within a couple tenths of a gram. That means the volume has to be larger than the real silver counterpart, and that difference is usually made up in thickness. The thickness can be disguised by selling them in capsules. They are also slightly thicker, but the casual buyer may not notice or know to look for it.

This.

My favorite auction and I have come to the agreement that I will no longer buy a coin that isn't raw or slabbed (and before you say it I know they fake the slabs too). Coins in flips, capsules, etc, must be removed and inspected. For weight, dimensions, magnetism, etc. As you get more and more experience you can start seeing that the fields look may funny under the loupe. Some of our studs here are ABSOLUTE studs at spotting problems.

Numi-coins are a dangerous game (although they can be really rewarding).

Again, were I a counterfeiter, I would just do numi coins in silver and be done with base metals.

[OneBiteAtATime]

Oh! If you're buying Morgan Dollars - carry an authentic one with you (write your name on it- I know it sounds corny but you don't want someone to think you're stealing). You can feel the difference, see the difference, especially if the weight is right.

[68Camaro]

You shouldn't be involved in this these days without a $5 scale that reads to 0.1 g, or far better a $15 scale that reads to 0.01 grams. There have been previous threads on scales, with links, if you search for them.

ASEs and Maples have extremely low variation in weight - you have to get one of the 0.01g scales to really meaure any significant variation.

90% wasn't designed to be of precise weight by coin, but rather was precise by batch average (by roll), so within each individual there is more variation - this even in MS uncirculated coin. There has been a thread or two on this topic in the past as well. In one of them I measured several types of coin and posted some typical variation in the as-minted state.

[Engineer]

To authenticate Maples, look for milk spots.

I forget what it's called but somebody sells a plastic see-saw looking thing that checks the weight, thickness, and diameter of specific coins.

[beauanderos]

To authenticate Maples, look for milk spots.

I forget what it's called but somebody sells a plastic see-saw looking thing that checks the weight, thickness, and diameter of specific coins.

It's called a Fisch tool

http://www.thefisch.com/index.html

[NHsorter]

Wow, the Fisch tool looks cool. Add that to the list of crap that I wish I had. Neat-o.

[aloneibreak]

i run a magnet over and weigh everything i get - do the same and you'll be fine

Many (most) of the modern fakes are copper or brass plated with .999 silver. They won't stick to a magnet and a quick surface acid test may very well pass. They are also pretty darn close to the correct weight, within a couple tenths of a gram. That means the volume has to be larger than the real silver counterpart, and that difference is usually made up in thickness. The thickness can be disguised by selling them in capsules. They are also slightly thicker, but the casual buyer may not notice or know to look for it.

oh great

one more thing to worry about

guess i better sell my small stack and put my money in treasuries - no worries there

[NHsorter]

Any worries when purchasing coins like this? I have a lead, and figure that they are not fakes, but just curious if anyone has seen any like this, or is it typically only more popular stuff?

[68Camaro]

Restating what Nate says above a different way... It is practically impossible within reasonable financial constraints to create an inexpensive non-magnetic alloy that has the same density of either silver or gold. If it doesn't have the same density but it does have the same correct weight then it has to have different dimensions, either diameter or thickness or both. Thus the Fischer gages (or a cheap modern digital caliper and a cheat sheet of the proper dimensions).

That's another of several reasons why I focus the vast bulk of my hoard on a few coin types for which I can easily check the physical properties, if needed.

[Morsecode]

Doesn't PCGS authenticate before grading? I would've assumed anything in an NGC or PCGS slab was at least genuine (if not otherwise labeled a copy)

[68Camaro]

Doesn't PCGS authenticate before grading? I would've assumed anything in an NGC or PCGS slab was at least genuine (if not otherwise labeled a copy)

You're presuming the grading details aren't faked as well...

[beauanderos]

Doesn't PCGS authenticate before grading? I would've assumed anything in an NGC or PCGS slab was at least genuine (if not otherwise labeled a copy)

well... someone is producing fake PCGS slabs that you can buy on the black market... and then stick whatever coin you want in them.

[OneBiteAtATime]

Any worries when purchasing coins like this? I have a lead, and figure that they are not fakes, but just curious if anyone has seen any like this, or is it typically only more popular stuff?

Buy them.

It is far better to occasionally get a fake than to be too scared to buy.

Modern Commems? C'Mon, they're real.

I think we may be freaking new folks out here. (Not you NH, you're not new.)

Fakes happen. Rarely.

I've handled fake nicks, Morgans, Pandas. Pretty sure I've never seen a fake modern commem silver dollar, I'm pretty sure I've never handled a fake ASE or CML.

Don't allow fear to keep you out of this incredible buying opportunity.

[Treetop]

I honestly think modern commem dollars are about the least likely to be faked. Premiums are pretty low on most of them, and so are mintages.

[neilgin1]

first off, i never call 90% silver pre-1965 American coinage "junk" silver.......JUNK is counterfeit coins floating around.

i know to some people i might seem kind of goofy, "entertaining" as has been put to me, whose 'analysis' is really not that worthy for anything but a laugh, but i been maintaining all along, the only silver i buy HAS to either be 90% American pre-1965 rolls, 40% 1965-70 Kennedy Halves, or 40% "blue" or "brown" (proof) silver Ike's, 1971-1974....as well as American Silver Eagles....THAT IS IT.

no foreign coins, no ignots, no 'rounds'............it has to say "United States of America" and "In God We Trust", and with the two exceptions, it has to be pre-1965....even the Morgans, the FIRST whispers i heard of those crooks playing games with the 1921's, were a big warning to me. i only got two rolls of Morgans, an 1882, and 1889, and believe me, i weighed them and danged them and dinged them...they are real.....plus thats why i always deal with the same people, and i WILL pay up, for that security....i'm not looking for "bargains"........i'm looking for the finest rolls i can find, and when i read those ebay things, i'm so cautious, if EVEN ONE WORD spooks me, or a picture looks off, or they put too many "!!!!!" with it, i NO BID.

coz stacking silver is no game or hobby, this is life or death....in this window i got, before frn's go down the toilet, i am stacking silver, nickel, copper and lead with intensity, which is why i didnt appreciate when i wished i had an extra 10 to 20k, this minute , some poster thinking they were being funny, by suggesting i "rob some a##hole"...maybe he said "rich a##hole", i forget.

and like i wrote back, "i HOPE your joking", coz there's a time for humor and laughs, but when it comes to robbing or ripping off folks, or counterfeiting, or any such wickedness, all i see is RED...bright liquid RED.