NE Penny Indiana Hoard..~ 1.5 Mill now (Coppers Gone)

[EthanA]

Just talked with him and I have new pictures.......

No ...never into die varieties....asked him if he looked for 72 DDO, nope only 55's was his answer.

[Madwest]

...
*** For the copper only buffs, he has about 640,000 coppers from 1959-1982 in 5 gallon buckets!
. . .
... He says that needs to go to the bank...
. . .

Really, advise him against taking the pre-83 to the bank for face value. There are buyers for that in any qty. He can get something over face value for sure and will not have to tote it to the bank.

[TheJonasCollegeFund]

Crazy pictures.

As for the 09VDB's, if you look at the market value as seen on feebay....a lot less than you see in book prices.

I am curious of what the "grey sheet" has for 09VDB's?

[TheJonasCollegeFund]

Also, where are the key dates???? Odd to have SO MANY of everything?????

[hobo finds]

Also, where are the key dates???? Odd to have SO MANY of everything?????

Looks like smaller boxes for some of the early ones....

[hobo finds]

OK
What is the face value of wheats, Indians and coppers that are rolled?
What is the weight of the coppers that are not rolled, including Indians and wheats?
What is the face value of zincs rolled?
What is the weight of the zincs that are not rolled?

Yes some of them will be worth a lot more due to condition, heck even some zincs... but you need to establish a base amount, and I am sure that amount is well above face and melt...

[Catfish4u]

...
*** For the copper only buffs, he has about 640,000 coppers from 1959-1982 in 5 gallon buckets!
. . .
... He says that needs to go to the bank...
. . .

Really, advise him against taking the pre-83 to the bank for face value. There are buyers for that in any qty. He can get something over face value for sure and will not have to tote it to the bank.

I think many of us would be interested in those! I am guessing 'the 1982 coppers' are all coppers as about half that year were zinc?

[EthanA]

Here is an update...


He has asked me to back off this for a time as he is negotiating with the dealer and his offer. It was at least $10k higher than anyone has even mentioned so far, including pick up. The dealer will make money on this one..

It was worth a shot, but it seems he was right from the start.

I think they are now talking about the 'rest' of the collection.


I will post an update in a few days.

[highroller4321]

The problem with this whole deal is the seller is trying to sell this without giving a price. I almost guarantee that that my offer would be $1000+ better than the dealers offer. My guess is the dealer is not valuing the copper and is doing 50-60% of greysheet. I am sure there are a few gems in the lot that are being undervalued as well.

If the seller named a price instead of giving out spreadsheets that are hard to read and fully understand what you are getting one could make an educated offer.


The buyer can not be asked to name a price a price and also buy the item. Doing this causes the buyer to make an undervalued offer based on the risk.


If you get real about selling this then name a price and let us decide.

[EthanA]

It seems that many here are ticked at the no price. Well that is on me and not the owner. So to appease those that want to know, I will tell you the offer is way north of $35K, its considerably higher but I will not say the exact amount. Those that are seriously interested already know that.

There, now the copper hunters can drool elsewhere...this is not a copper sale. It has copper but the numismatics outweigh that by a considerable margin...I know, odd thing to say in a copper thread. Don't worry, it is also on a coin thread.



So using this it should be easy to see...I can do no more. Those with the spreadsheet can figure it however they see fit. As can be seen it is north of 3 cents for 2 million pennies. Keep in mind the original offer did not include the 600K in copper pennies.

I can give no further updates until I speak with him again, he told me to stop and I guess I will. He does not see this as working, I think he actually read the thread. He did not want to see the PMs.

Good Night all...

[Diggin4copper]

What a bizarre thread...

[brian0918]

What a bizarre thread...

I could tell by the first page this was probably never going to happen. Nice pictures but vague numbers, vague prices, vague location.

[barrytrot]

Even though EthanA may have dropped off the thread, I'm curious as to the thoughts of people here about not starting with a price?

Can someone here explain to me how that will yield "better pricing"? I haven't really sold all that much in this area, but I do sales as my actual "job" and we always say, the price is X. Sometimes the buyer says, "no I want to pay 75% of X" (or something) and then we negotiate.

But when you start with NOTHING it seems that people would be encouraged go low. Am I wrong and it would actually encourage people to aim high?

[Madwest]

The problem with this whole deal is the seller is trying to sell this without giving a price. I almost guarantee that that my offer would be $1000+ better than the dealers offer. My guess is the dealer is not valuing the copper and is doing 50-60% of greysheet. I am sure there are a few gems in the lot that are being undervalued as well.

If the seller named a price instead of giving out spreadsheets that are hard to read and fully understand what you are getting one could make an educated offer.


The buyer can not be asked to name a price a price and also buy the item. Doing this causes the buyer to make an undervalued offer based on the risk.


If you get real about selling this then name a price and let us decide.

Even though EthanA may have dropped off the thread, I'm curious as to the thoughts of people here about not starting with a price?

Can someone here explain to me how that will yield "better pricing"? I haven't really sold all that much in this area, but I do sales as my actual "job" and we always say, the price is X. Sometimes the buyer says, "no I want to pay 75% of X" (or something) and then we negotiate.

But when you start with NOTHING it seems that people would be encouraged go low. Am I wrong and it would actually encourage people to aim high?

I think I've sniffed it out...

- The owner (Ethan's buddy) decided to sell his hoard.
- He got an offer from a dealer. Most LCS will make an offer without you giving an asking price. As actual dealers generally do, the dealer offered the minimum that he thought would not alienate the seller (expecting a counter offer).
- Owner and Ethan decided that the dealer offer was too close to low-ball territory and brainstormed of ways to validate or disprove that offer. That brought Ethan here (and likely elsewhere as well).

Remember Ethan is not the owner/seller. I think he was sincere in everything he did here but the owner/seller was only loosely interested (at best) in the goings on. Because of that, no one here had a real shot at getting in on the deal. If that wasn't the case, someone like highroller who is known to have the resources to make a deal would be allowed to "bid" against that local dealer. If Adam is cut out of the deal, there was no deal to be made.

That's my perception anyway.

[hobo finds]

I still like the pic of the state quarter boxes... Lots of money tied up there. Not sure how much more you could get for them....

[EthanA]

What a bizarre thread...

I could tell by the first page this was probably never going to happen. Nice pictures but vague numbers, vague prices, vague location.

This is my fault and mine only. I tried to do what I thought was right.

Even though EthanA may have dropped off the thread, I'm curious as to the thoughts of people here about not starting with a price?

Can someone here explain to me how that will yield "better pricing"? I haven't really sold all that much in this area, but I do sales as my actual "job" and we always say, the price is X. Sometimes the buyer says, "no I want to pay 75% of X" (or something) and then we negotiate.

But when you start with NOTHING it seems that people would be encouraged go low. Am I wrong and it would actually encourage people to aim high?

Well I am still here when I can be. I can not talk with him so I am on hold. I will discuss the concerns here when I can.

I started with no price. Yes that encourages low bids so to speak. That enabled me to move on as a collector would not do that as they could see the owner knows what he has, that is why I went and got better pictures and more detail. My goal is to get him the best price I can for an amazing collection. What harm is there in that?

I think I've sniffed it out...

Ok I can see that you think you do...nothing wrong with that.

- The owner (Ethan's buddy) decided to sell his hoard.

Sort of, but 2 months ago it was not an issue.

- He got an offer from a dealer. Most LCS will make an offer without you giving an asking price. As actual dealers generally do, the dealer offered the minimum that he thought would not alienate the seller (expecting a counter offer).

What the dealer offered was more fair than I originally thought considering but I had to run the numbers and educate myself on pennies more than I was.

- Owner and Ethan decided that the dealer offer was too close to low-ball territory and brainstormed of ways to validate or disprove that offer. That brought Ethan here (and likely elsewhere as well).

The brainstorming was me, not the owner. The dealer knows of this thread now and he knows what he offered and why he offered what he did. I am not angry with him at all. Yes a couple of other spots, but they were collector sites, not a one such as this. This site was recommended by someone on one of the coin forums. I still am glad I came here as I have learned some things...

Remember Ethan is not the owner/seller. I think he was sincere in everything he did here but the owner/seller was only loosely interested (at best) in the goings on. Because of that, no one here had a real shot at getting in on the deal. If that wasn't the case, someone like highroller who is known to have the resources to make a deal would be allowed to "bid" against that local dealer. If Adam is cut out of the deal, there was no deal to be made.

Oh that is were you are wrong, as far as I know anyone can still make a sincere offer. Once that is done within reason, then I would have the two talk and I would be out of it. My intent was to put the owner in touch with someone that was seriously interested in buying a collection.

That's my perception anyway.

You are so entitled and for the most part, in the ballpark.

Look folks, there was no ill intent here on my part. the best way I can explain it in is terms that I understand. If I have a Accented Kennedy half dollar in cameo that I think is a PR67, then I know that it sells for greater than $250. If I have to sell it and am offered $150, then why would I not look elsewhere to see if I can get at least $200.

Those that wanted, pm's me and got the updated spreadsheet. Then it was a matter of plug and chug the same as I did and come up with a figure. Whether the figure was reasonable is subjective I know, but if lowball, then easy to move on. I have some folks that are interested for sure, and some have asked questions that I have done what I can to answer in an honest way. My purpose was to get my friend some contacts, serious contacts...that is it. Ultimately he decides not me.

[EthanA]

I still like the pic of the state quarter boxes... Lots of money tied up there. Not sure how much more you could get for them....

Well that is true, did not notice when I took that picture. Yes, there is more but the pennies are his passion and what he wants to sell first. The quarters? I do not know much about them.

There is more to the story but it is not my place to enlighten. If he tells me I can then I will, until that time...its the pennies.

[natsb88]

I don't like ad-stomping, but with somebody so new to the forum advertising such a large deal, and it going seemingly downhill, I feel a few things need to be said.

Nobody is going to buy a lot this big (and with this many duplicates) purely as a collector at anything close to a book price to simply re-stack it in their garage.

Selling it as one lump sum limits the pool of buyers to a select few: dealers who are going to look at flipping the entire lot (which is a ton of work), and collectors who would sort through to keep what they want and resell the remainder (they must have the means to make the purchase and the time to process it, same as a dealer, and would be thinking in terms of a return on their investment).

The seller has a decent chance at getting a better offer here than from someone who is strictly a dealer, as a buyer here would likely be looking at keeping at least part of the collection for them self. I can guarantee that there are at least a half dozen members here with the means to pull it off, and I would bet that at least half of those are sincerely interested.

However, the format of this sale (?) has worked against an actual sale from the very beginning. It reminds me of an episode of Shark Tank I saw once... The guy purposely undervalued his initial request to see what kind of offers he could get. Like two minutes into it he had an offer for 5x what he was asking. Instead of even acknowledging that shark, let alone engaging with her, the guy started asking the other sharks for offers. That ticked off the first shark and she dropped out. The rest of the sharks then asked him for a real valuation, since he clearly sandbagged his initial request and was fishing for way more. But the guy absolutely refused to disclose his valuation and just kept asking for offers. Instead of throwing out a starting point and negotiating, or engaging with a shark who made an offer, he was hoping to get a blind offer higher than his undisclosed goal. Due to his strategy and behavior, the only subsequent offers he received were lower than the first offer, and he walked away with nothing.

You have sincerely interested and capable buyers here. They are experienced with copper, with numismatics, and with negotiating. But they aren't going to waste their time taking shots in the dark on a gigantic lot that is not very well defined when the intermediary is so wishy-washy about the price. My suggestion to EthanA would be to disclose the dealer's offer (through private messages) to the handful of folks who are seriously interested in the lot. Then if anybody is interested in making a higher offer, put them directly in touch with the seller and let those couple people negotiate with the actual decision-maker. I think EthanA's efforts are sincere, but this thread isn't going to accomplish anything more than it already has without hard pricing and if the poster can't do the negotiating anyway.

[TheJonasCollegeFund]

I'm just pissed....I wanted to go see this in person!

[EthanA]

I don't like ad-stomping, but with somebody so new to the forum advertising such a large deal, and it going seemingly downhill, I feel a few things need to be said.

Well as I said, this board was 'recommended' to me, as the exact quote was they LOVE pennies. So I came over..shoot me. I am known on the coin forums I frequent so I really don't care if that irks you.

Nobody is going to buy a lot this big (and with this many duplicates) purely as a collector at anything close to a book price to simply re-stack it in their garage.

Well you very well could be right. To be honest if I had the money and of course the time I would buy it. This really is a variety collectors DREAM. Lots and lots of dupes, 1909 all the way to 2014......(Forgot the small amount of IHC)

Selling it as one lump sum limits the pool of buyers to a select few: dealers who are going to look at flipping the entire lot (which is a ton of work), and collectors who would sort through to keep what they want and resell the remainder (they must have the means to make the purchase and the time to process it, same as a dealer, and would be thinking in terms of a return on their investment).

Well I can not answer that all the way but I can find nothing wrong with the logic. My goal was to get it in front of collectors, in some ways I have done just that. It would have never had near the exposure otherwise. In that regard It was a success.

The seller has a decent chance at getting a better offer here than from someone who is strictly a dealer, as a buyer here would likely be looking at keeping at least part of the collection for them self. I can guarantee that there are at least a half dozen members here with the means to pull it off, and I would bet that at least half of those are sincerely interested.

Well then , SPEAK UP, PM me and quit whining!

However, the format of this sale (?) has worked against an actual sale from the very beginning. It reminds me of an episode of Shark Tank I saw once... The guy purposely undervalued his initial request to see what kind of offers he could get. Like two minutes into it he had an offer for 5x what he was asking. Instead of even acknowledging that shark, let alone engaging with her, the guy started asking the other sharks for offers. That ticked off the first shark and she dropped out. The rest of the sharks then asked him for a real valuation, since he clearly sandbagged his initial request and was fishing for way more. But the guy absolutely refused to disclose his valuation and just kept asking for offers. Instead of throwing out a starting point and negotiating, or engaging with a shark who made an offer, he was hoping to get a blind offer higher than his undisclosed goal. Due to his strategy and behavior, the only subsequent offers he received were lower than the first offer, and he walked away with nothing.

You really are reading to much into this. It is as I have presented with some information left out that is NOT bearing on what is presented here. That information is private. (Between the owner and I). I can tell you. HE IS SERIOUS. THIS WILL BE SOLD AND SOON.

You have sincerely interested and capable buyers here. They are experienced with copper, with numismatics, and with negotiating. But they aren't going to waste their time taking shots in the dark on a gigantic lot that is not very well defined when the intermediary is so wishy-washy about the price.

Well, see it as you may. I have defined as best I can at this point with what I was given. I went back and got more. I wish I could elaborate but trust me I am not trying to be deceitful. This from my point of view is no different than when you go to a garage sale and see something your interested in and you ask how much and the owner says 'Make me an offer'. Granted the scale is much larger.

My suggestion to EthanA would be to disclose the dealer's offer (through private messages) to the handful of folks who are seriously interested in the lot. Then if anybody is interested in making a higher offer, put them directly in touch with the seller and let those couple people negotiate with the actual decision-maker.

Well well, hmm I have done that to a certain degree in some pm's. The answers I have given are very good ball parks. Some are even within $5k. So there....I know those that are serious and I have been discussing this with them. As I have said, my goal is to get a buyer in touch with the seller. That is when I walk away....I have not been shy about that from the beginning. Look this was my idea, if it does not pan out, then so be it. He was not going this route anyway. What did it hurt? To be honest, I do think I will be passing some phone numbers soon at least as soon as I can if he wants to do it.

I think EthanA's efforts are sincere, but this thread isn't going to accomplish anything more than it already has without hard pricing and if the poster can't do the negotiating anyway.

I guess either I did not make it clear enough. My part was to get the serious bidders. They can negotiate with the owner. Those that want to bid $20k/$30K/ and yes $40k are not in the ballpark. Serious bidders already realize this. The list is there, the spread sheet has been given and the numbers crunched by many. My part is not to say "He will take it". I can however assure you to the best of my ability, if I come across that person, they will be the first in line to talk with the owner. That after all was my goal.


Thanks

[EthanA]

I'm just pissed....I wanted to go see this in person!

Why be pissed? Nothing is decided yet. I can not even get a hold of the owner yet.

I have about 4 folks, maybe 5 that have convinced me of their sincerity. As soon I can , I will be passing this information to the owner. At this time I do not know when that will be. I am hoping on Friday or Saturday.

[EthanA]

I actually think it is funny how so many think I am up to no good. I guess I can understand it but it is what it is...


When I can, I will divulge more of what is going on. It is not needed. For right now, there is a boatload of pennies for sale collected over 30+ years. The owner wants to sell and has contacted a dealer who made him a fair offer. Is it the winning offer? I do not know yet and nothing against the dealer, I hope someone else gets it, a collector I hope. I want to come back in year and see what hidden things were in it. True, there might not be one but come one, what are the odds?

I search Kennedy Halves. Would I like to look through a bag of 64's for errors? You bet, that is my thing. I think I have less than 50 pennies in my collection, just not that interested in them. Sad part is that is what got me started as a coin collector. In the early 70's my dad would get a $50 bag and a flipping we would go. When he passed we probably had a $50 bag of Wheaties with $40 in it. I gave them to my brother in trade for something else. I wonder what was in it? Who knows. To this day the most exciting one I found was a Panamanian penny. Thought I had found a treasure and my Dad sure did not tell me any different.

There is no hidden agenda other than I want to help my friend get the most that he can for his life long hobby. What is the harm in that?

[Thogey]

I actually think it is funny how so many think I am up to no good. I guess I can understand it but it is what it is...

First, thanks for bringing this here. This is not the kind of thing we see daily.

Being the third wheel in this kind of deal a bitch. You are actually acting as a broker for a very tough kind of deal.

This lot is the only one like it on the Earth now. It is unique. You contacted one of the few groups of folks who understand it.

What we understand is that you are offering a job, and time consumption must be compensated

But it has to happen face to face with the owner, and the lot has to be examined first hand.

I hope your friend will compensate you if you are able to make this happen. Again, It's a REALLY tough deal.

I don't think our membership truly believes you are a bad guy. Purely by the nature of the deal, there are many unknowns. We all fear and dislike that which we do not understand.

Stick around and you will find great value as a member here.

[EthanA]

First, thanks for bringing this here. This is not the kind of thing we see daily.

Thanks - I have never seen anything like it either....that is why I thought a collector would freak. I mean someone could become a big time one in one instant if so desired.

Being the third wheel in this kind of deal a bitch. You are actually acting as a broker for a very tough kind of deal.

Not a broker I hope - A friend yes....I am doing what he can not.

This lot is the only one like it on the Earth now. It is unique. You contacted one of the few groups of folks who understand it.

Thanks - the coin forums have not been so interested but this is a lot of pennies.

What we understand is that you are offering a job, and time consumption must be compensated

Not following you here....whose time?

But it has to happen face to face with the owner, and the lot has to be examined first hand.

Oh by all means 100%, it is what I have been saying all along. The whole problem is whom do I send to the owner? Only the serious is my goal.

I hope your friend will compensate you if you are able to make this happen. Again, It's a REALLY tough deal.

Well, I was going to say there is no payment wanted or expected. Then I remembered. I asked or a 6 pack of good beer. That is it.

I don't think our membership truly believes you are a bad guy. Purely by the nature of the deal, there are many unknowns. We all fear and dislike that which we do not understand.

Agreed, and I am trying to avoid causing fear and misunderstanding. That is not the intent at all.

Stick around and you will find great value as a member here.

I think you could be right, will check some of the other threads....scanned them earlier but I have so many forums now and so little time.......I wanted to get back to playing my Naval sim, "Command: Modern Air / Naval Operations". New update out and all. This however is more important to me.

[TheJonasCollegeFund]

Might be interesting to get a live look at these coins. I know Gene (pennyguy) is an hour closer than me. And I bet a few Ohio and Michigan members are also closer to me. Maybe a nice group outing?