The real threat... I am sticking to eagles going forwards

[fusscharles]

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/59841 ... ilver.html

[SilverDragon72]

Well, that is why I would buy from a trusted source, such as an LCS or reputable PM dealer online. Of course, none of us RealCenters would ever sell such a thing, would we?

[mflugher]

Sorry but search ali baba a little better, there are ASE replicas for sale too...

No coin/bullion/bar is "safe" from counterfeiting. just learn how to use your scale and calipers (I can't think of the right name for the tool but it slides open and shut and has a dial to measure to the 1/10th mm... sorry) for an excellent first check, or be super paranoid and only buy mint sealed rolls/boxes. that of course will mean higher premiums and the assumption the govt isn't going to decide to rip you off someday too...

If you ever held one of these coins you would probably be able to feel the difference anyway. I've handled a few counterfeits and thousands of genuine and something just feels wrong, they are a little lighter, a little off color etc. If you aren't buying Numi's then it would do the criminal no good to counterfeit the item in the correct metal alloy, and if it is actually counterfeit who cares because you are buying for silver content anyway.

[68Camaro]

Sorry but search ali baba a little better, there are ASE replicas for sale too...

...just learn how to use your scale and calipers (I can't think of the right name for the tool but it slides open and shut and has a dial to measure to the 1/10th mm... sorry)

Caliper... you've got it right.

Micrometers generally twist closed rather than slide, and generally measure to another decimal place better than calipers.

[brian0918]

Another reason to stick to junk silver - minimal incentive for counterfeiting.

[brian0918]

When you measure with calipers, what part of the coin are you measuring the thickness of?

What brand/model of scale and calipers do you use?

[Copper Catcher]

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/60438 ... ilver.html
Did you notice the 10 oz bar they were selling too?

[Copper Catcher]

I looked and searched deeper not just on the site listed but lots of others and could not believe what I found. I am not going to post the links but I am finding all type of brands of "silver bars" 1 oz and 10oz that have been copied.

They are making them in brass to the exact standards and plating them with silver. I can get 5 "1oz silver bars" sealed in plastic for $21.99! Everything someone thinks they can make money on will likely be copied. EVERYTHING!

The American Eagle is not protected....I am not sure what you could do to protect yourself unless everyone is going to walk around with an X ray machine!

[JobIII]

Do these "replicas" have any markings to ID them as replicas?

How do you tell they are fakes? Is the weight off, or would it be the dimensions?

[brian0918]

Stick to junk silver!

[mflugher]

Sorry but search ali baba a little better, there are ASE replicas for sale too...

...just learn how to use your scale and calipers (I can't think of the right name for the tool but it slides open and shut and has a dial to measure to the 1/10th mm... sorry)

Caliper... you've got it right.

Micrometers generally twist closed rather than slide, and generally measure to another decimal place better than calipers.

yeah I knew it wasn't a micrometer... I personally use a leveredge brand dial gague which I also use to measure diamonds as my tool of choice, however they tend to be much more expensive than calipers.

Calipers, thanks 68camero, area relatively cheap tool (under $20) at harbor freight or ebay, you don't need to go nuts on them, the tool is relatively sound like pliers or a screwdriver, you will see when it starts to wear down, just make sure if any of the little gear bits start to slip its time to replace them. Personally I'd avoid the digital ones, but thats just personal preference I have no evidence to say they are less accurate, I however like the mechanical ones better with the dial gague, I know you have to learn to read the decimals on a different place than you read the Centimeters, but frankly if someone isn't smart enough to figure it out they have no business buying questionable gold/silver in the first place...

as far as the scale:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Pocket- ... 3f15c77e3f

Its cheap as heck, and its accurate to .05dwt, its use for diamonds is a bit questionable, since 1/100th a carat(.002gram) can make the difference in a major price break at the even numbers, but for gold/silver/drugs its more than sufficient. I keep one in my car, my partner keeps one in his briefcase. We keep like 2 more in each of our locations in addition to the high end mettler brand certified scales, but frankly for measuring gold the additional accuracy of the $1600 mettler scale is insignificant. When I sell to refiner I use this scale as the Mettler can only measure 60 dwt (3ozt) at a time while this scale can measure up to 300 (15 ozt).



All said I have seen very few of these come through, they aren't as prevalent as the fearmongers would have you believe. If somone offers you 1000x ase be wary and measure some of them. Keep in mind these companies on alibaba want to sell wholesale, you have to deal with people who barely speak english, they want payment in full up front in most cases, and the 100x minimum order by this company is way out of the ordinary, most want 10k or 100k min orders, so the little petty criminal doesn't have the cash to pull this off, and the people with the cash to pull this kind of importing off generally have better ways to illegally make money, see viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18434.

[Copper Catcher]

If someone is running this type of operation to this detail then I think it is safe to say they are going to measure and weight everything to make it as exact as possible!

Short of an X ray I'm not sure how to really protect yourself and junk silver is not the be all end all answer either. We have all seen fake silver dollars and I have seen fake half dollars as well and quarters...If silver keeps going up we will see more of them soon.

[Copper Catcher]

mflugher I differ with your assessment...The criminal does not have to spend tons of money....I am not going to share this link that I found for obvious reasons but you can order a 20 piece lots of 999 Silver Plated Sunshine Eagle Bullion Bars i.e. their newest design in the plastic for $58 with free shipping!

$34 X 20 = $680 for a $58 dollar investment. I would like to think everyone is honest but this company also listed a feedback section and there is a long list of american buyers commenting on how great the "product" is and I am sure they are not buying them as decoration!

The threat is real and I do not have a solid answer. I have no idea if bullion companies are now scanning ALL silver bars and round no matter the size, but I serious doubt it!

[Copper Catcher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inn8iVASxLY
This is a 2011 video...

Fake Silver and Gold Flood Global Markets; 100,000 Coins From A Single Counterfeiter!
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-gol ... =Mac+Slavo

[brian0918]

So assuming that they make them to the correct dimensions, which should be easy, the weight would more difficult to get right, so a very accurate scale would be the most important investment.

What other tests are there? Would an acid test work work if it's silver plated? How about a sound test?

[68Camaro]

I know that at least some of the major bullion dealers (Miles Franklin, for one) are going to 100% x-ray inspection on silver from any sources that aren't tied directly to the US Mint. That's not to say that x-ray is required - it isn't - but it's just one of the cheapest ways to do this en masse.

If you get an accurate weight and measure of each coin (the government coins are the most well known), then you are essentially doing a fine measure density check. It's very difficult - if not impossible - to exactly and cheaply duplicate the density of silver (or gold), at least out of inexpensive and easy to process metals.

[68Camaro]

$6.09 with free shipping from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Weigh-MS-500-BLK- ... B000P1NYE8

[68Camaro]

Note that if you do the math to verify specific gravity, and use the calipered dimensions, you won't get the actual correct volume (or therefore the correct specific gravity) because the reeding and surface designs make the calipered dimensions larger than that of a perfect cylinder.

But that's not necessary for quality control, at least on well-known designs which aren't worn. You just need to verify the correct dimensions (with reeding and coined design) and the weight.

If you want to actually check specific gravity, you'll need to get the (relatively simple) equipment needed to do an archimedes experiment. But that's not required unless you have something that you don't know the correct dimensions on, or which is worn such that the measured dimensions don't match the original.

[brian0918]

$5.52 shipped from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1kg-0-1g-500g-0 ... 0785316945

Funny, China sells the disease and the cure.

[SilverDragon72]

I guess one really has to be careful out there when purchasing PM's. If the price seems too low, it probably is. I will only buy from folks on here, the US mint...or other reputable online dealers.

I sure hope my coppers are genuine

[68Camaro]

To precisely duplicate the specific gravity of silver, you would need to create an alloy (or laminate) of the right precise proportions of two other cheaper metals that have specific gravities on either side of silver.

This can be done, for example, with lead/molybdenum, or tungsten/copper, (I just did the calcs) but the proportions would have to be exact to at least 3 places. In those cases, x-ray would be the best quality control choice. However, you're not going to get these cheap copies described above made of these alloys for less than $5-$10 each. Tungsten and Moly aren't cheap, nor are copper or lead, not the work required to alloy or laminate. They wouldn't (yet) be than much cheaper in the final form than silver.

The cheapies are probably made with iron/lead, or some other combo. They would either be magnetic, or of the wrong dimensions.

I'm not sure that a really high quality, non-magnetic, density-checked counterfeit could be made that would be cost-effective.

Anyone want to prove me wrong?

[68Camaro]

$5.52 shipped from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1kg-0-1g-500g-0 ... 0785316945
...

Good price. Keep looking. At this rate they'll be paying us to take them! Coin dealers should be buying these by the boxload and giving them out free with each order over $500

[mflugher]

while not as dense as gold, silver is still on the upper end of densities of metals.

copper 8.92 g/cm^3, brass/bronze will be lower density as its copper mixed with zinc/tin
Silver 10.5 g/cm^3

An electroplated copper coin will be about 15% lighter than an equivalent .999 silver coin.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metal ... -d_50.html
for tons of other metals.

I suppose a lead/copper alloy could be made to somwhat mimic the density properties of silver... however it wouldn't even come close to passing the ring test.

Short of going to gold/platinum (more expensive), Mercury alloy (would be very maliable, and pretty expensive) Molybendium or depleted uranium/copper alloy (not likely to happen, expensive), or using antifriction metal (no idea what this is but it sounds expensive) you are going to find either a weight or size discrepency.

No amount of careful polishing or machining is going to make a brass coin the same size/weight of a silver coin sorry.

Silver plate doesn't look like silver either, a trained eye will be able to notice it pretty quickly.

None of these metals will pass the ring test, a trained ear will be able to notice it quickly.

Some people can even smell the difference between metals, I don't claim to be one of them, but I know a lady that can differentiate 10/14/18k by smell with about 80% accuracy, copper is way off, I can even smell the diff between copper/bronze and PMs...

But they do exist yes...

[mflugher]

To precisely duplicate the specific gravity of silver, you would need to create an alloy (or laminate) of the right precise proportions of two other cheaper metals that have specific gravities on either side of silver.

This can be done, for example, with lead/molybdenum, or tungsten/copper, (I just did the calcs) but the proportions would have to be exact to at least 3 places. In those cases, x-ray would be the best quality control choice. However, you're not going to get these cheap copies described above made of these alloys for less than $5-$10 each. Tungsten and Moly aren't cheap, nor are copper or lead, not the work required to alloy or laminate. They wouldn't (yet) be than much cheaper in the final form than silver.

The cheapies are probably made with iron/lead, or some other combo. They would either be magnetic, or of the wrong dimensions.

I'm not sure that a really high quality, non-magnetic, density-checked counterfeit could be made that would be cost-effective.

Anyone want to prove me wrong?

These specific ones are made of brass, its right in the item description, otherwise I agree, apparently we were typing the same thing at about the same time...

non magnetic density checked counterfeit of silver would not be cost effective in any way I can think of...
Keep in mind these other metals are also hard assets, so if silver shot up to say some ridiculous number like $500/oz most likely these other metals would also follow, and counterfeits would be slightly more feasable but I doubt it would ever make sense. Such time/effort would be better spent making gold fakes.


I have seen cupro nickel copies that look much closer to the real thing when you are talking like junk silver, however the weight is off by about 25%.

Same with the ones shown by OP, they would be off by about 15%.

These fakes will fool a novice who isn't being careful, they will never pass muster in a coin shop or gold dealer with any experience.

[68Camaro]

Yep, you're right - a ring test would be the other acceptable accompanying non-destructive test that would pair well with a weight/dimension check.

Nearly impossible to fool the combination of the two, I suspect.

Of course a ring test works well for small coins/bars, not so well for jewelry or large bars.