Silver - $27 going to Zero! Call your boss..beg for job back

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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby neilgin1 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:48 pm

Country wrote:Looks like $22 has held. Was as low as $21.99, now bouncing up to $22.63. $21.xx was the old high before that massive drop to $8.63. Bounce tomorrow? :thumbup:

LET 'ER RIP!! :clap:


I don't know. I think what we witnessed in silver, gold, crude oil, bonds, equities, and yes, even a pair of bombs going off in Boston, are parts and parcel of something larger happening that Is still somewhat hazy and unclear....but its not "good".

We're not even 16 days into the 2nd quarter, and already there are to me, two dates that stand as important, today, April 15th, which I can say was a very bad day on so many levels, and March 6th, when Rand Paul stood in the well of the Senate, asking for an answer to a chillingly simple question.

its going to be a while before the PM markets....and other markets shake this dislocation we witnessed today. Something foul is afoot.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby CLINT-THE-GREAT » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:01 pm

inflationhawk wrote:As the price goes down, Goldmart's markup on ASEs has gone up and up. They're now 4.49 over spot!!! They were like 2.79 over spot on Friday and 3.29 over this morning.


Just like I posted a few weeks ago stating that I thought the "ACTUAL" silver price was around $31-32. Actual being the obtainable price. So no matter how much the paper price goes down, the premiums will keep rising.

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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby scyther » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:19 pm

CLINT-THE-GREAT wrote:
inflationhawk wrote:As the price goes down, Goldmart's markup on ASEs has gone up and up. They're now 4.49 over spot!!! They were like 2.79 over spot on Friday and 3.29 over this morning.


Just like I posted a few weeks ago stating that I thought the "ACTUAL" silver price was around $31-32. Actual being the obtainable price. So no matter how much the paper price goes down, the premiums will keep rising.

-The Great

For a while, yes, they will. But eventually new supply will come to market. IF this new price is permanent, you will be able to buy at this price eventually. How long it will take, I don't know, but probably not more than a few months at the most (maybe a lot less, who knows).

For what it's worth, I bought at spot on Friday, and that was way less than $31-32.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby Jonflyfish » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:27 pm

CLINT-THE-GREAT wrote:
inflationhawk wrote:As the price goes down, Goldmart's markup on ASEs has gone up and up. They're now 4.49 over spot!!! They were like 2.79 over spot on Friday and 3.29 over this morning.


Just like I posted a few weeks ago stating that I thought the "ACTUAL" silver price was around $31-32. Actual being the obtainable price. So no matter how much the paper price goes down, the premiums will keep rising.

-The Great


Whatever the paper market does is whatever the physical does. If you don't believe that, don't look at 1000 oz bar prices today. And, don't ask Tulving, Apmex etc how they price physical.
Retail small lots from some bucket shops may try to take advantage and convince people that the "real" price is higher than it is, but then that's why they are bucket shops. They rip folks off and sell lies to justify the extortion.

Cheers!
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby scyther » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:38 pm

Jonflyfish wrote:
CLINT-THE-GREAT wrote:
inflationhawk wrote:As the price goes down, Goldmart's markup on ASEs has gone up and up. They're now 4.49 over spot!!! They were like 2.79 over spot on Friday and 3.29 over this morning.


Just like I posted a few weeks ago stating that I thought the "ACTUAL" silver price was around $31-32. Actual being the obtainable price. So no matter how much the paper price goes down, the premiums will keep rising.

-The Great


Whatever the paper market does is whatever the physical does. If you don't believe that, don't look at 1000 oz bar prices today. And, don't ask Tulving, Apmex etc how they price physical.
Retail small lots from some bucket shops may try to take advantage and convince people that the "real" price is higher than it is, but then that's why they are bucket shops. They rip folks off and sell lies to justify the extortion.

Cheers!

Any advice for people who can't afford a thousand ounces at a time?
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby fansubs_ca » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:11 am

scyther wrote:Any advice for people who can't afford a thousand ounces at a time?


Kitco still has 3 one ounce products (2 if you ignore a minor differentiation of dates),
2 1 Kg products, and 2 100 ounce products available:

https://online.kitco.com/bullion/completelist_USD.html#silver

For those outside the U.S. they have 1 one ounce product and the 2 1Kg products.
(They have an office in NY to serve the U.S. and one in Quebec to serve the rest
of the world but don't move inventory between the 2 locations.)

Generally you'll want to order as much as you can in one shot to keep the
unit cost on shipping down though.

Oddly they are not showing any 1000 ounce bars at this time, which in 2008 is all
they were down to at one point. Maybe they learned last time to keep a larger
percentage of their inventory in the smaller stuff so they had more small stuff
left when the demand hit this time around. Either that or more of the buyers on
this dip are big players who can afford 1000 ounces at a time.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby Engineer » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:58 am

Jonflyfish wrote:Whatever the paper market does is whatever the physical does. If you don't believe that, don't look at 1000 oz bar prices today. And, don't ask Tulving, Apmex etc how they price physical.
Retail small lots from some bucket shops may try to take advantage and convince people that the "real" price is higher than it is, but then that's why they are bucket shops. They rip folks off and sell lies to justify the extortion.

Cheers!


I'm not sure I'm buying your theory that prices are set only by the Wall Street speculators. They certainly do play a role, but you can't completely ignore the laws of supply and demand.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby 68Camaro » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:40 am

Yep. The principles of supply and demand also includes the form. While broad availability over time of 1000 oz bars at $23,000 would eventually drive the price down for 1, 5, 10 oz products as the big bars are converted to the smaller ones, the fact remains that the price of silver is also a function of supply and demand in the form. There are billions of tons of silver containing ore that are worthless in that form, so form matters. If 1000 oz bars are only $23 for a short period of time, the "sale" at a lower price will completely suck up all the supply of the "fractionals" and you'll see the difficulty in sourcing 90% as well as 1, 5, 10 oz bars, rounds, coins that is experienced by everyone at every one of these price dips. There is a true scarcity of small forms at this time. I ordered some, but who knows when it will actually arrive. I also picked up some small amounts of other product at greatly reduced prices, but there was a limit to what was available (it was more than I personally had available to spend at this time, but there was an earlier time - and there will be another later time - when I literally could have personally sucked up everything I found).
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby 68Camaro » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:48 am

And continuing that thought, there is a limit to the amount of 1000 oz bars available. While certainly there are far more than I personally could afford there are people in the world capable of buying the market - not to mention organizations or national bodies.

More important however, there is - as we know from observation of the recent selling action - no limit to the amount of 1000 oz paper certificates. They are being "printed" fast and furious. Eventually there should come a reconciliation, but the sad thing about this market is that it is possible for the people printing the certificates to use them to manipulate the price. Until there is a complete market failure they therefore can avoid the reconciliation at the expense of paper longs with weak hands that capitulate.

So in the meantime we've been given an opportunity to add to the physical. If you can find some in your price range buy it.
In the game of Woke, the goal posts can be moved at any moment, the penalties will apply retroactively and claims of fairness will always lose out to the perpetual right to claim offense.... Bret Stephens
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby HoardCopperByTheTon » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:07 am

Dead cat bounce.. already? :mrgreen:

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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby beauanderos » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:24 am

HoardCopperByTheTon wrote:Dead cat bounce.. already? :mrgreen:

Image

We'll see at 10AM EST if they're gonna let the cat purr or not. Not holding my breath here. What is destroyed in hours can take weeks to months to restore. :roll: If they figure that was capitulation, then they'll start refilling their shorts during our phase of mistrust (climbing the wall of worry?). If they figure there are still more suckers out there waiting to be fleeced, then this will, in hindsight, be seen as a dead cat bounce as they resume their games after a day or two. Two different agendas at play. The tactics that might be best as a profit motive differ from might be most effective as a totally devastating long-lasting demoralizing ploy to persuade commoners that fiat is GOOD. :sick:
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby Jonflyfish » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:30 am

Engineer wrote:
Jonflyfish wrote:Whatever the paper market does is whatever the physical does. If you don't believe that, don't look at 1000 oz bar prices today. And, don't ask Tulving, Apmex etc how they price physical.
Retail small lots from some bucket shops may try to take advantage and convince people that the "real" price is higher than it is, but then that's why they are bucket shops. They rip folks off and sell lies to justify the extortion.

Cheers!


I'm not sure I'm buying your theory that prices are set only by the Wall Street speculators. They certainly do play a role, but you can't completely ignore the laws of supply and demand.

I'm not trying to sell you on theory. I'm also not talking about "Wall street speculators". Price is set in the markets. Large liquid auctions. Look at how your dealers price their offerings. They don't set it based on "walk-ins" that determine supply and demand. PM's are a commodity with known properties. They are traded as such at major centers around the globe.
And if there was a basis differential between what people wanted to "believe" and set the price away from the market, arbitrage would bring it back to the market. There is no free lunch.

Cheers!
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby Treetop » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:56 am

Jonflyfish wrote:And if there was a basis differential between what people wanted to "believe" and set the price away from the market, arbitrage would bring it back to the market. There is no free lunch.

Cheers!



Confused here. didnt you just say basically the same thing engineer did?

I wonder how different the markets would be if most of the gold and silver traded actually existed. Ive never seen an argument against this altering the markets that wasnt emotional based. Its simple math.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby Jonflyfish » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:05 am

Treetop wrote:
Jonflyfish wrote:And if there was a basis differential between what people wanted to "believe" and set the price away from the market, arbitrage would bring it back to the market. There is no free lunch.

Cheers!



Confused here. didnt you just say basically the same thing engineer did?

I wonder how different the markets would be if most of the gold and silver traded actually existed. Ive never seen an argument against this altering the markets that wasnt emotional based. Its simple math.


I may be wrong but I don't think we are saying the same thing. My point is, PM's are non-perishable commodities with known properties (obvious to everyone here. Just setting the baseline). Given that, they are fungible. So, if there was an opportunity to buy underpriced at one location and sell at a premium at another to benefit from the basis diff., assuming that it nets greater than transportation costs, that opportunity would be taken swiftly and efficiently and would be eliminated. The market prices are established by price discovery. I would find it hard to believe that folks here actually think dealers operate in a vacuum. Once again, ask Apmex or Tulving how they price their goods sold. It's not driven by emotion. It is what it is.

Cheers!
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby shinnosuke » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:50 am

Jonflyfish wrote:
Treetop wrote:
Jonflyfish wrote:And if there was a basis differential between what people wanted to "believe" and set the price away from the market, arbitrage would bring it back to the market. There is no free lunch.

Cheers!



Confused here. didnt you just say basically the same thing engineer did?

I wonder how different the markets would be if most of the gold and silver traded actually existed. Ive never seen an argument against this altering the markets that wasnt emotional based. Its simple math.


I may be wrong but I don't think we are saying the same thing. My point is, PM's are non-perishable commodities with known properties (obvious to everyone here. Just setting the baseline). Given that, they are fungible. So, if there was an opportunity to buy underpriced at one location and sell at a premium at another to benefit from the basis diff., assuming that it nets greater than transportation costs, that opportunity would be taken swiftly and efficiently and would be eliminated. The market prices are established by price discovery. I would find it hard to believe that folks here actually think dealers operate in a vacuum. Once again, ask Apmex or Tulving how they price their goods sold. It's not driven by emotion. It is what it is.

Cheers!


Perhaps there is the element of emotion connected to this discussion that is causing some members to talk past each other. Here's how I see it:

You guys remember Redd Foxx's role as Fred Sanford in the TV series Sanford and Son? I used to laugh my head off at that show. My friends and I would quote lines from the show, one of them being (with hand covering heart and a staggering walk): It's the big one. I'm coming to see you, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth was Fred's dearly departed wife. Upon hearing something he didn't like, Fred would pretend to be about to die from a heart attack. We laughed at his antics.

Well, many realcent members, me included, are just waiting for "the big one." We're convinced that there are evil players in the market and that the .gov is not our friend. We point to lots of evidence to justify our beliefs. We get emotional about this stuff because we know that one day this whole grand scheme is going to crash and lots of innocents are going to get hurt.

On the other hand, JFF, who has gone on record as saying that eventually the fiat money we use will fail (JFF if I am misconstruing your comments from some months ago, please correct me), is simply saying that in an informed market, price is everything. It is what it is. If there were huge discrepancies, somebody would jump on them and make a buck.

I think it is possible for both of these worldviews to co-exist; both could be right. I procure precious metals because I'm convinced there are evil and designing men at work to destroy our freedom. Therefore, it is hard for me to even consider selling any of it. JFF may be buying and stacking and also making money churning some of the stuff he buys.

I like what Treetop wrote in one of his posts a few weeks ago: I dont know what Im doing. all I know is silver is shiny and heavy and FRNs are paper promises from liars.

That statement describes me well.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby 68Camaro » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:38 am

shinnosuke wrote:...
I like what Treetop wrote in one of his posts a few weeks ago: I dont know what Im doing. all I know is silver is shiny and heavy and FRNs are paper promises from liars.
...
That statement describes me well.


I missed that one somehow but I like it.

a) As informed as I might be (or think I am) it is always present in my head that I still barely know what I'm doing.
b) I believe I will never have enough accurate information on the market to be able to make all the correct decisions which in hindsight will be clear.
c) I believe I'm correct in my overall direction, but
d) I can easily be wrong in both detail and timing, so need to not overcommit in any sense that depends on those.
e) I look for choices of path that are safer to travel on, and avoid those that are unsafe.

I have agreed with JFF that price is king - it most certainly is, in the moment. But my overriding concern is that we are in a bubble on a bubble on a bubble, which is being manipulated by a number of players who are each trying to out-manuever each other, some on a global scale. I'm an ant in that game. So price must ultimately be slave to reality; if the system is found to be caught in a lie (or lies) somewhere (and all bubbles collapse) then price - even though still king - will literally collapse faster than I can possibly react, and I won't let myself be caught on the wrong side of that play.
In the game of Woke, the goal posts can be moved at any moment, the penalties will apply retroactively and claims of fairness will always lose out to the perpetual right to claim offense.... Bret Stephens
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby natsb88 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:33 pm

Jonflyfish wrote:My point is, PM's are non-perishable commodities with known properties (obvious to everyone here. Just setting the baseline). Given that, they are fungible. So, if there was an opportunity to buy underpriced at one location and sell at a premium at another to benefit from the basis diff., assuming that it nets greater than transportation costs, that opportunity would be taken swiftly and efficiently and would be eliminated. The market prices are established by price discovery. I would find it hard to believe that folks here actually think dealers operate in a vacuum. Once again, ask Apmex or Tulving how they price their goods sold. It's not driven by emotion. It is what it is.

I agree with this to an extent, but it doesn't reach equilibrium instantaneously. When you have a sharp drop in spot, there is a period where physical will trade significantly above paper. The 1000 oz bars you can buy on the open market do not instantly convert to 1 oz rounds in a dealer's case. The sudden increase in demand for retail physical will outpace supply for a time. The demand curve moves faster than the supply curve. Eventually, if spot levels out at the lower level, supply will begin to catch up and demand will settle down. But there is most definitely a period where the gap between paper and physical is larger than "normal." We have seen it every time there has been a big drop in spot. How long it lasts depends on how far it drops and how long it stays there.

So, if there was an opportunity to buy underpriced at one location and sell at a premium at another to benefit from the basis diff., assuming that it nets greater than transportation costs, that opportunity would be taken swiftly and efficiently and would be eliminated

Doesn't that simply describe what mints do? You left out the conversion costs of turning 1000 oz bars into retail-sized units, which is a significant factor. But if physical and paper were exactly the same thing worth exactly the same amount, no mints would be in business. Clearly there is a differential between paper and physical, 1000 oz bars and 1 oz bars. There's an entire industry based around it.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby Jonflyfish » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:10 pm

natsb88 wrote:
Jonflyfish wrote:My point is, PM's are non-perishable commodities with known properties (obvious to everyone here. Just setting the baseline). Given that, they are fungible. So, if there was an opportunity to buy underpriced at one location and sell at a premium at another to benefit from the basis diff., assuming that it nets greater than transportation costs, that opportunity would be taken swiftly and efficiently and would be eliminated. The market prices are established by price discovery. I would find it hard to believe that folks here actually think dealers operate in a vacuum. Once again, ask Apmex or Tulving how they price their goods sold. It's not driven by emotion. It is what it is.

I agree with this to an extent, but it doesn't reach equilibrium instantaneously. When you have a sharp drop in spot, there is a period where physical will trade significantly above paper. The 1000 oz bars you can buy on the open market do not instantly convert to 1 oz rounds in a dealer's case. The sudden increase in demand for retail physical will outpace supply for a time. The demand curve moves faster than the supply curve. Eventually, if spot levels out at the lower level, supply will begin to catch up and demand will settle down. But there is most definitely a period where the gap between paper and physical is larger than "normal." We have seen it every time there has been a big drop in spot. How long it lasts depends on how far it drops and how long it stays there.

So, if there was an opportunity to buy underpriced at one location and sell at a premium at another to benefit from the basis diff., assuming that it nets greater than transportation costs, that opportunity would be taken swiftly and efficiently and would be eliminated

Doesn't that simply describe what mints do? You left out the conversion costs of turning 1000 oz bars into retail-sized units, which is a significant factor. But if physical and paper were exactly the same thing worth exactly the same amount, no mints would be in business. Clearly there is a differential between paper and physical, 1000 oz bars and 1 oz bars. There's an entire industry based around it.


Valid points with respect to retail prices. Physical spot is institutional pricing and NYMEX contracts are for 5,000 ounces so that physical/financial relationship for pricing is sound without free arbitrage.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby neilgin1 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:17 pm

Let me put this all very simply...and as one who participated in the futures markets, both on and off floor; as long as man like Jon Corzine, who committed what is akin to the "unpardonable sin" ( trading segregated customer funds, and imploded MF Global) and continues to walk a FREE MAN, then you cannot consider ANY futures market in the United States as a TRUE place of price discovery.

There are too many feed lot operators, too many country grain elevators, legitimate hedgers, who have lost trust in the futures markets in this country.....chief among them...obviously is the silver market.

Anybody can say what they want, defend it, be an apologist for a totally dysfunctional trade entity....but I had the distinct displeasure to have a front row, as the most craven, short sighted greedy men this side of the Atlantic, WRECKED a good market....and that was the Pork Bellies. it might be somewhat of a joke NOW, but back in the day, many many hedgers used the Bellies to conduct business more effieciently....and in the process, they denuded the one commodity that is crucial for mercantilism to WORK....that commodity is TRUST.

There was a time when Bellies were THE speculators market, great liquidity, soild trending attributes, plenty of "action" for adrenalin junkies...late 70's, early 80's?....huge Japanese and Taiwanese money flowing into the Bellies, and some of the those guys just RAPED the Asians, I've seen more illegal trading practices than you can even imagine...and enforcement?

please...non-existent...a license to steal, and steal they did...in the process, they KILLED the market...and that's what going to happen to silver. Maybe somebody wants it DEAD....and then we'll see how you engage in transparent price discovery.

I remember when "Wall Street", the Stone film came out....Stone thought it would be regarded as a cautionary tale, au contraire! ....these guys, us....had lines memorized! Gordon Gecko was a F###ing hero!!! but i'm here to tell you, "greed is NOT good....greed DOES NOT work.....all that kind of headspace and worldview does, is just provide "FOOD" for communism and socialism.

Greed and avarice just lead to klepto-oliogarchy, which is exactly what we see today, when a guy like Jon Corzine walks a free man and its why we have the IMMENSE structural problems we deal with in a dynamic capitalistic society.

that's what I got to say.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby NHsorter » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:29 pm

Corzine is scum and the fact that he still walks free speaks clearly to the fact that our government does not answer to the people, it answers to those with the money.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $22....heading to $21?

Postby natsb88 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:47 pm

Jonflyfish wrote:Valid points with respect to retail prices. Physical spot is institutional pricing and NYMEX contracts are for 5,000 ounces so that physical/financial relationship for pricing is sound without free arbitrage.
Cheers!

IMO that makes the physical price of silver a 5000 oz contract + delivery cost + cost of converting 5000 ounces to retail sizes. The base price of a 5000 oz contract alone is not the physical price of silver. You can't walk into a coin shop with a 5000 oz contract and walk out with cash. It's a means to an end, but it isn't tangible silver without additional effort/cost. It's just a paper contract, and it's only tradeable inside a certain marketplace.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby neilgin1 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:03 pm

This Gold Slam is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks


It likely signals a big downdraft in the stock market, too

by Chris Martenson

Monday, April 15, 2013, 3:55 PM

I am very disappointed by, but not surprised at, the latest transfer of wealth to the bankers from everyone else. The most recent gold bear raid has vastly enriched the bullion bankers, once again, at the expense of everyone trying to protect their wealth from global central bank money printing.

The central plank of Bernanke's magic recovery plan has been to get everybody back borrowing, spending, and "investing" in stocks, bonds, and other financial assets. But not equally so, as he has been instrumental in distorting the landscape towards risk assets and away from safe harbors.

That's why a 2-year loan to the U.S. government will only net you 0.22%, a rate that is far below even the official rate of inflation. In other words, loan the U.S. government $10,000,000 and you will receive just $22,000 per year for your efforts and lose wealth in the process because inflation reduced the value of your $10,000,000 by $130,000 per year. After the two years is up, you are up $44,000 but out $260,000, for net loss of $216,000.

That wealth, or purchasing power, did not just vanish: It was taken by the process of inflation and transferred to someone else. But to whom did it go? There's no easy answer for that, but the basic answer is that it went to those closest to the printing press. It went to the government itself, which spent your $10,000,000 loan the instant you made it, and it went to the financiers who play the leveraged game of money who happen to be closest to the Fed's printing press.

This almost completely explains why the gap between the rich and everyone else is widening so rapidly, and why financiers now populate the top of every Forbes 400 list. There is no mystery, just a process of wealth transfer of magnificent and historic proportions; one that has been repeated dozens of times throughout history.

This Gold Slam Was By and For the Bullion Banks

A while back, I noted to Adam that the gold slams that were first detected back in January were among the weakest I'd ever seen. Back then I was seeing the usual pattern of late-night, thin-market futures dumping, which I had seen before in 2008 and 2011, two other periods when precious metals were slammed hard.

The process is simple enough to understand; if you want to move the price down for any asset, your best results will happen in a thin market when there's not a lot of participation so that whatever volume you supply has a chance of wiping out whatever bids are sitting on the books. It is in those dark hours that the market-makers just dump, preferably as fast as possible.

This is exactly what I saw repeatedly leading up to Friday's epic dump-fest. The mainstream media (MSM), for its part, fully supports these practices by failing to even note them. The CFTC has never once commented on the practice, and we all know that central banks support a well-contained precious metals (PM) price because they are actively trying to build confidence in their fiat money and rising PM prices serve to reduce confidence.

Here's a perfect example of the MSM in action, courtesy of the Financial Times:


Gold tumbles to two-year low [28]

“There is no other way to put gold’s recent sell-off: nasty,” said Joni Teves, precious metals strategist at UBS in London, adding that gold would have to work to “rebuild trust” among investors.

Tom Kendall, precious metals analyst at Credit Suisse said “Once again gold investors are being reminded that the metal is not a very effective hedge against broad-based risk-off moves in the commodity markets.”

There are two things to note in these snippets. The first is that the main ideas being promoted about gold are that it is no longer to be trusted and that somehow the recent move is a result of "risk off" decisions – meaning, conversely, that there is increased trust in the larger financial markets that 'investors' are rotating towards. Note that these ideas are exactly the sort of messages that central bankers quite desperately want to have conveyed.

The second observation is even more interesting, namely that the only people quoted work directly for the largest bullion banks in the world. These are the very same outfits that stood to gain enormously if precious metals dropped in price. Of course they are thrilled with the recent sell off. They made billions.

In February, Credit Suisse 'predicted' that the gold market had peaked, SocGen said the end of the gold era was upon us, and recently Goldman Sachs told everyone to short the metal.

While that's somewhat interesting, you should first know that the largest bullion banks had amassed huge short positions in precious metals by January.

Image

The CFTC rather coyly refers to the bullion banks simply as 'large traders,' but everyone knows that these are the bullion banks. What we are seeing in that chart is that out of a range of commodities, the precious metals were the most heavily shorted, by far.

So the timeline here is easy to follow. The bullion banks:
1.Amass a huge short position early in the game
2.Begin telling everyone to go short (wink, wink) to get things moving along in the right direction by sowing doubt in the minds of the longs
3.Begin testing the late night markets for depth by initiating mini raids (that also serve to let experienced traders know that there's an elephant or two in the room)
4.Wait for the right moment and then open the floodgates to dump such an overwhelming amount of paper gold and silver into the market that lower prices are the only possible result
5.Close their positions for massive gains and then act as if they had made a really prescient market call
6.Await their big bonus checks and wash, rinse, repeat at a later date

While I am almost 100% certain that any decent investigation by the CFTC would reveal that market manipulating 'dumping' was happening, I am equally certain that no such investigation will occur. That's because the point of such a maneuver by the bullion banks is designed to transfer as much wealth from 'out there' and towards the center, and the CFTC is there to protect the center's 'right' to do exactly that.

This all began on Friday April 12th, and one of the better summaries is provided by Ross Norman of Sharps Pixley, a London Bullion brokerage:


The gold futures markets opened in New York on Friday 12th April to a monumental 3.4 million ounces (100 tonnes) of gold selling of the June futures contract (see below) in what proved to be only an opening shot. The selling took gold to the technically very important level of $1540 which was not only the low of 2012, it was also seen by many as the level which confirmed the ongoing bull run which dates back to 2000. In many traders minds it stood as a formidable support level... the line in the sand.

Two hours later the initial selling, rumored to have been routed through Merrill Lynch's floor team, by a rather more significant blast when the floor was hit by a further 10 million ounces of selling (300 tonnes) over the following 30 minutes of trading. This was clearly not a case of disappointed longs leaving the market - it had the hallmarks of a concerted 'short sale', which by driving prices sharply lower in a display of 'shock & awe' - would seek to gain further momentum by prompting others to also sell as their positions as they hit their maximum acceptable losses or so-called 'stopped-out' in market parlance - probably hidden the unimpeachable (?) $1540 level.

The selling was timed for optimal impact with New York at its most liquid, while key overseas gold markets including London were open and able feel the impact. The estimated 400 tonne of gold futures selling in total equates to 15% of annual gold mine production - too much for the market to readily absorb, especially with sentiment weak following gold's non performance in the wake of Japanese QE, a nuclear threat from North Korea and weakening US economic data. The assault to the short side was essentially saying "you are long... and wrong".

Image

The areas circled represent the largest 'dumps' of paper gold contracts that I have ever seen. To reiterate Ross's comments, there is no possible way to explain those except as a concerted effort to drive down the price.

To put this in context, if instead of gold, this were corn we were talking about, 128,000,000 tonnes of corn would have been sold during a similar 3-hour window, as that amount represents 15% of the world's yearly harvest. And what would have happened to the price? It would have been driven sharply lower, of course. That's the point; such dumping is designed to accomplish lower prices, period, and that's the very definition of market manipulation.

For a closer-up look at this process, let's turn to Sunday night and with a resolution of about 1 second (the chart above is with 5 minute 'windows,' or candles, as they are called). Here I want you to see that whoever is trading in the thin overnight market and is responsible for setting the prices cannot possibly be human. Humans trade small numbers of contracts and in consistently random amounts.

Here's an example
Image

Note that the contracts' numbers, in the single digits to tens, are randomly distributed, and that the scale on the right tops out at 80, although no single second of trades breaks 20.

Now here are a few patterns that routinely erupted throughout the drops during Sunday night (yes, I was up very late watching it all):

Image

Image

Image

These are just a few of the dozens of examples I captured over a single hour of trading before I lost interest in capturing any more.

As I was watching this and discussing it with Adam in real time, I knew that I was watching the sort of HFT/computer-trading robots that we've discussed here so much in the past. They are perfectly designed to chew through bid structures, and that's what you see above. They are 'digesting' all the orders that were still on the books for gold, to remove them so that lower and lower stops could be run.

Anybody who had orders up against these machines, perhaps with stops in place, or perhaps even while sleeping because this all happened in the hours around midnight EST, lost and lost big.

There is really no chance to stand against players this large with a determination to drive prices lower. At the very least, I take the above evidence of computer-assisted declines of this magnitude to be a sign that our "markets" are completely broken and quite vulnerable to a crash. That the authorities did not step in to halt these markets during such a volatile decline, when they have repeatedly stepped into other markets and individual equity shares on lesser declines, tells me much about the level of official support for such a decline.

It also tells me that things are speeding up, and the next decline in the equity or bond markets may happen a lot faster than anybody is expecting.

Unintended Consequences

If the intended consequences of this move were to enrich the bullion banks and to chase investors away from gold and other commodities and into stocks, what are the unintended consequences going to be?

While I cannot dispute that the bullion banks made out like bandits, I also wonder if perhaps, instead of signaling that the dollar is safer than gold, the banks did not unintentionally send the larger signal that deflation is gaining the upper hand.

With deflation, everything falls apart. It is the most feared thing to the powers that be, and for good reason. Without inflation and at least nominal GDP growth, if not real growth, then all of the various rescues and steadily growing piles of public debt will slump towards outright failure and possibly collapse. The unintended consequence of dropping gold so powerfully is to signal that deflation is winning the day.

If this view is correct, then the current sell-off in gold, as well as in other commodities (detailed in Part II of this report), will simply be the trigger for a loss of both confidence and liquidity in the system, and that will not bode well for the larger economy or equities.

In Part II: Protecting Your Wealth from Deflation [30], we explore the growing signs that the money-printing efforts of the central planners are seeing diminishing returns and are failing in their intended effect to kick global economic growth higher. Deflationary forces appear poised to take the upper hand here, sending asset prices lower – potentially much lower – across the board.

If deflation indeed manages to break out from under the central banks' efforts to contain it, even if only for a short period, how bad will the ensuing wave of price instability be? How can one position for it? How extreme will the measures the central banks take in response be? And what impact will that have on asset prices, the dollar, and precious metals?

We are entering a new chapter in the unfolding of our economic emergency, one in which the risks to capital are greater than ever. And the rules are increasingly being re-written to the disadvantage of us individuals.

The one unfair advantage we have is that history is very clear on how these periods of economic malfeasance end. Let's exploit that as best we're able.

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/8153 ... kets-banks
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby barrytrot » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:25 pm

neilgin1 wrote:This Gold Slam is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks


Title should be -> from the pockets of the ignorant. Definitely not my pockets :) And (probably) not many other here either.

I intend to use this to make MORE money for my pockets actually :)
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby johnbrickner » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:26 pm

It's these kind of discussions that keep me glued to my seat her at RC.
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Re: Silver Was $25 now $23....heading to $24?

Postby neilgin1 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:53 pm

barrytrot wrote:
neilgin1 wrote:This Gold Slam is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks


Title should be -> from the pockets of the ignorant. Definitely not my pockets :) And (probably) not many other here either.

I intend to use this to make MORE money for my pockets actually :)


Barry, my bru, much respect mon, but that meme...... pockets of the ignorant is wrong headed. You don't have to abase yourself over the $25 thing....unless you want to. But you don't HAVE to, its okay.

But you cant look at the article as a stand alone, its part and parcel of something deeper...a deeper sickness overtaking the land. Its underlines a klepto-oliograchy. and people are NOT ignorant. Americans are not ignorant, and one day they're going to wake in anger.

It doesn't have to be that way, but that's the path it seems some folks are intent on dragging this nation...daily, the Constitution being eroded...daily. the unholy combine of the military-industrial-banking-petro-prison complex getting stronger. daily...the outrages of a ruling elite UNACCOUNTABLE to any judiciary for high crimes and misdemeanors...treason.

i'll stop here...not time yet.

I will say this, I warned, get out of "paper", stick to stacking, keep it simple. heed my words or not.....you're a grown man.
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