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don't think the ppt can hold this thing up........

Agreed. I think the dow will close in the red today. Probably another steep drop near the close.

NHsorter wrote:Agreed. I think the dow will close in the red today. Probably another steep drop near the close.

Agreed. Its been fading all day.

Im sure they are working on an algo to time the flow of buys as a function of time and volume to cause the indices to turn and stay green at close.

68Camaro wrote:Im sure they are working on an algo to time the flow of buys as a function of time and volume to cause the indices to turn and stay green at close.

I'd be willing to wager they were responsible for the big open yesterday, and then just left matters to their course after that. But seeing how it all ended, you could be
right, Rich. or you could be rich, right?

NHsorter wrote:Agreed. I think the dow will close in the red today. Probably another steep drop near the close.

NHsorter wrote:

NHsorter wrote:Agreed. I think the dow will close in the red today. Probably another steep drop near the close.

Naaah, don't feel bad. All smoke and mirrors. You can look at the V recovery and bet your life that's where the PPT started up their algos again. Market was sliding
prior to that ... and who else but idiots would buy now?

beauanderos wrote:

NHsorter wrote:

NHsorter wrote:Agreed. I think the dow will close in the red today. Probably another steep drop near the close.

Naaah, don't feel bad. All smoke and mirrors. You can look at the V recovery and bet your life that's where the PPT started up their algos again. Market was sliding
prior to that ... and who else but idiots would buy now?

these PPT boys aint dumb, but they sure are stupid.....coz the next time, could be tomorrow, we open bad? mkt participants will be lulled into believeing the PPT team will ride to the rescue....complacent.....and they wont.....OR what about the next time, we see China down 10% plus, Europe opens and stays bad?

then what?

the PPT team comes in, and the selling is so bad, THEY get rickrolled?......

these aint free markets anymore, they're manipulated with tax payer money....same way the global geopolitical situation is manipulated....and now we know why TPTB step on the paper Ag market....bomb longs out.and stealthy take delivery of every one of those fabricator 1,000 toz bars, and run the price to $600......and since there's a revolving door between Wall street, JP, Goldman, etc....and the Fed and Treasury, when silver hits $600, I guarantee you, for us , regular citizens, they will slap a 50% windfall tax on ALL small scale silver sales.........."well at least i'll get $300"........$300 of what?.......PAPER currency of dubious value?

and the WORST thing today, was we got to see LIVE, the murder of two twenty something hard working beautiful kids...on camera, by some demoniac loser, who was probably so filled with big pharma's anti-depressant poison, he woke up with his brain squirming like a toad.....and now every commie gun grabber has a woodie, because the dear murdered woman was so sweet and nice....oh yeh, and since the shooter was so full of pysch med's, he wrote a 23 page manifesto, as a black man , how he was avenging the black church massacre by another pysch med freek, who murdered 9 dear souls for nothing, just obeying his master, satan.

boy, these are some bad days in America right now.

beauanderos wrote:

NHsorter wrote:

NHsorter wrote:Agreed. I think the dow will close in the red today. Probably another steep drop near the close.

Naaah, don't feel bad. All smoke and mirrors. You can look at the V recovery and bet your life that's where the PPT started up their algos again. Market was sliding
prior to that ... and who else but idiots would buy now?

I agree with everything you are saying, however I fear we are under-estimating THEIR power and the ignorance of the retail investor. Most people are unable or unwilling to comprehend the how the "markets" operate. Those who do understand what is happening are either out of the market or still in and part of the cabal. Many were predicting the markets' demise in 2011 when the Dow took a 15% dive. It is interesting how these last two events* occurred at least a year removed from the Presidential election, perhaps to ensure that certain elected officials to suffer too much political.

*To be clear I don't think this one is over quite over just yet.

the retail investors... if suckered back into the market on a buy the dip mentality... will get scalped

Well, the suckers who bought the dip in 2011 made out pretty well.

I do think that the system will collapse one day, but I also think the Dow will hit 25000 before it does. You are under-estimating the power of insanity and denial. How else can you explain a 600 point rebound?

You presume that the trades are free market - they arent. What proportion were executed by the common man I dont know, but there was no insanity here. It was pure theatrics. (Neil would be familiar with that for sure.) The government bought the market and the market sold to the government. We dont even know that it wasnt the government selling to itself to drive the price up.
Another uncertified reference I saw this week suggested thst more than half of equity sales volume worldwide is now done by governments and their proxies. True? Dont know. But not at all hard tk believe.

68Camaro wrote:You presume that the trades are free market - they arent. What proportion were executed by the common man I dont know, but there was no insanity here. It was pure theatrics. (Neil would be familiar with that for sure.) The government bought the market and the market sold to the government. We dont even know that it wasnt the government selling to itself to drive the price up.
Another uncertified reference I saw this week suggested thst more than half of equity sales volume worldwide is now done by governments and their proxies. True? Dont know. But not at all hard tk believe.

I think it's true. It just shows the desperation behind the show to keep it propped up one more day, then another day....

68Camaro wrote:You presume that the trades are free market -

I presumed no such thing. The securities are clearly being propped up by sovereigns, banks and their proxies. I doubt that the exchanges have resembled anything close to free markets for decades. I'm merely saying that we have under-estimated THEIR ability to keep this thing going. Every time we have a 10% correction the hard money advocates call for a paper "market" (please note the " ") collapse, losing a little credibility each time the "market" recovers. One day they will be right, but not today.

When the collapse does actually occur it will be (IMO) in the midst of a War or a similar existential crisis, so our "wonderful" central banking system can escape the blame. Also, I believe it will happen so quickly that we will have not the time or luxury to debate it. One morning we will simply wake up a "new' financial system.

theo wrote:Well, the suckers who bought the dip in 2011 made out pretty well.

I do think that the system will collapse one day, but I also think the Dow will hit 25000 before it does. You are under-estimating the power of insanity and denial. How else can you explain a 600 point rebound?

In a word, volatility. Increasing volatility is a sign of increasing pressure. If they have control, why not calm things down a bit?

theo wrote:When the collapse does actually occur it will be (IMO) in the midst of a War or a similar existential crisis, so our "wonderful" central banking system can escape the blame.

This might be bigger than the Fed, and I can hear the war drums. I suspect the bullion banks could take some of the blame when they relinquish price setting of precious metals to Russia and China in a few months.

The DOW could certainly go to 25000 if money printing is fired up in full force, but that will mean more increasing volatility. Inflated markets caused the volatility we have, and inflating more means it will compound. With how much China ballooned in the last year before this crash, to me it looks like it was done on purpose. Anything with a consistent yoy return over 8% means ponzi scheme, so it's not like they weren't being obvious about it. Why would they do that if they weren't triggering something?

theo wrote:Well, the suckers who bought the dip in 2011 made out pretty well.

I do think that the system will collapse one day, but I also think the Dow will hit 25000 before it does. You are under-estimating the power of insanity and denial. How else can you explain a 600 point rebound?

that is a very well made point......EVERYBODY thinks equities will collapse, that's the problem right there.....EVERYBODY, and as long as there's loaves of bread, and cheap sammich meat on the shelves, everything stays docile....people WANT things docile....i'm even getting "doomer overload", and I'd wager among the guys here, I live in a hobbits shire, nice and safe.

but i'm starting to overload, and don't know how the rest of you men feel....you guys "overloading" too?

Most of this will be a long drawn-out process - I also have expected it to hit 25000+ before we hit the big one for several reasons. I'm not looking for the big one quite yet - I'm looking for their excuse to apply a GLOBAL QE4, which then pushes gold up big, and it's the GLOBAL QE4 that eventually leads to the big one. And that big one will catch people by surprise in its suddenness. So, barring a war, natural disaster, or zombie apocalypse - I think you can stand down from the near-term doomsday watch Neil. I think there is some time left, all of which should be used for careful preps.

Neil I have been overloaded on doom for months. I usually enjoy autumn as my favorite season of the year. Cooler temps, colors here in the blueridge are heavenly...just a beautiful time of year. But this year, its getting to me. The Shemitah, the 7 year bull run with no halting, possible world wide currency adjustments, jade helm, 4 blood moons in a year..... My wife, thank God for her, tells me to take a break from the reading and podcasts etc. "Read a fiction book to escape..." she says. She's right. i think maybe we all need a couple days to back off. Sometimes checking the markets multiple times a day makes no sense (to me). If it crashes, what good does watching it crash do? Most of us are somewhat prepped, so if it sinks, so be it.

Anyhow, you guys have been awesome in supplying this board with info and 'the word on the street'. I don't know if I need to check anywhere else other than here for updates. Neil, 68camaro, thogey and many others I could list....you guys always seem to bring good perspective mainly because you don't always agree yet your aims are true.

In short, looks like markets are are rosy again this AM. All is well in the world right? Keep up the good work guys.

good post silverflake.

There is an endless supply of doom available right at your fingertips. More than you could ever consume. I probably consume more than I should. Friends, please don't kill yourself by constantly worrying about it! NOBODY knows if and when an economic collapse might occur. NOBODY knows how it would unfold. It's great to be generally aware of what could happen and to have contingency plans, sure. But I think that there are too many people that are spending way too much time on their computers, consuming endless speculation, and worrying.

Might I suggest getting out and doing stuff!

There are so many great things that you can do with your time to "prep". If you have a nagging concern for the future, there are so many things that you can do about it now, other than just reading speculation on what might happen. Get your mind off the doom porn and focus on some hobbies/activities. There are so many things that you can do to stay healthy and active that would cross over to being beneficial to you in either a bad economy, a horrible economy, a depression or worse.

Firewood: good to have on hand, cheap way to heat your house in any economy, good physical activity to help keep you in shape and active

Gardening/Farming: great skill to have, saves money, you get some really awesome food that is so much better than in stores.

Hiking/Camping/Fishing/Hunting: Get out there, have fun, stay fit, learn valuable skills!

A good, hard days work is very satisfying. Especially when you can kick back and look at a nice huge stack of firewood, or kick back and admire the chicken coop that you just built. All the while learning skills that can benefit you and your family for your whole life, in any economy.

Whenever I start feeling like the weight of the world is bearing down on me, I just remember to take a breath and look around. Things are the same as they were. The sky is still blue, the birds and the squirrells are still doing their thing, I've got plenty of honey bees in my yard. We deal with complex ideas and sometimes difficult concepts, but they only have to be as difficult as we choose to make them out to be. Never forget, fear is the mind killer. My philosophy is that no matter what happens around the world, the only world that I can have a real impact on is the one in front of me, and that world is not nearly as bad as all the doom and gloom. It's actually quite peaceful.

68Camaro wrote:Im sure they are working on an algo to time the flow of buys as a function of time and volume to cause the indices to turn and stay green at close.

Agreed, it's all about the orders already in place and the executions made in the last half hour of the day. You could really say the last hour of the trading day the big boys have been executing their large orders. I'm waiting to see what comes out of Monday morning "slow period" when the average investor couldn't succesully put through a trade but rather had to wait while the big boys were able to trade just fine. Manipulation at its finest.

Ive come to the conclusion over the years Its near useless for me to even follow much that happens in depth anymore. The stuff I still follow is more like human interest at this point. Why? I honestly apparently have no idea how to read the signs anyway. TPTB or whatever we want to call them have more tools then I understand, and understanding them better isnt likely to help me as much as staying in shape and growing more things, and other stuff I do instead now. I still firmly believe the current paradigm simply cannot be sustained longterm, but where will it take us? No idea, the money masters really are adept it seems to me, and may derail us about anywhere along a long range of potentials. I expect war, so their machinations never come into light for most, the reset then blamed on the war but who the heck knows. Im a bit happier now as well having stepped back alot. Focus on our kids alot, letting them have fun but also helping them learn hard work ethic and other skills I expect will come in handy. Half the kids at my sons school (mostly mormons) or more have their kids in fear for the future. My son told us recently we are the best parents he knows of because we dont teach him to be afraid but to learn and laugh and live while also knowing how to do things to live. I broke down in tears and he just gave me a hug with a knowing look in his eye. Hes 8. considering that I have no idea what the future holds beyond that I see no way the current paradigm lasts, this was a very touching thing for us. The final straw on me not being afraid. I did the best I know how to do, thats all anyone alive could do.

Others have expressed similar thoughts - but well said. Yes - step back from the drama as you need - it will go on without you. Make your plans without presumption that others will be there for you, while quietly preparing to be in a position to help others. The paths of the country and world will go where they will - with rare exception none of us can individually influence the big picture as no matter your world view the forces in play are far larger than we can affect.

68Camaro wrote: So, barring a war, natural disaster, or zombie apocalypse - I think you can stand down from the near-term doomsday watch Neil. I think there is some time left, all of which should be used for careful preps.

my dear friend R/68,
I been meaning to respond to your reply for a few days now...and NOT in a contentious way. I wanted to explain the why ..the way ..I think.....and to post for you, a very good documentary on how close we came in the time period of Sep-Nov 1983, to a full scale nuclear conflict. (I know I posted a wiki on this, it was our miscalculation, and lack of intel, to how bad, we scared the Soviets in that time period. based on both President Reagan's "evil empire" and 'star wars" rhetoric, combined with our military build up, and our LACK of knowledge of the Russian leadership mindset, they actually BELIEVED we were setting them up for a bolt out of the blue first strike. )

R, I met the "grown up" world too darn early...in hindsight, at 17 years old and 5 months, I was in the DoD's language school, Korean, and at 18 years old and 5 months, I had a TS/Codeword clearance, and a one way to ticket to Korea, for a period that was the most dangerous, since the end of hostilities, and even to this very day. (lil Kim may shout and bluster, but that's just to get "things", his military, while "devoted", would just be a very large targeting list for our forces in 2015)

I was there in 1978 and 79, right at the time, President Carter, in his well meaning , but ill-advised way, said publicly, he was going to withdraw the only combat div in South Korea, the day after this announcement, the North began to MOVE, it was ON....there were no doubts, and back in that day, there was a greater than 50-50 chance the commies would have prevailed, meaning taken Pusan, the southernmost harbor, in less than a month.....I was a precocious kid, and had been studying warfighting, since I was 10, so when at 18-19 years of age, doing my job, in Korea, I was not out of my element, nor was I scared....I was more pissed off, because post-Vietnam, our military was a broken military, as our naval detachment, did not have a weapons locker, nor an organic motor pool (to bug out, nor evac plans, etc) at a point, I decided to rough sketch, how I would as a NK, attack the south, thru a huge Achilles heel that existed at that time, presenting it to my superiors. You would think they'd roll their eyes, blow off this 19 year kid, but as I outlined my thesis, they got real sober, stayed quiet, took my notes, and I would assume, gussied it up, and sent it back home...I forget the exact timeline, because we were bombarding national command authorities almost daily with coherent REAL intel, that this thing was going to get ugly, and thank God the President reversed his decision, though some damage had been done, in that the NK's believed our commitment to the ROK was shaky.

so I did my first tour there, and was sent back to Maryland, to a place that's in the news a lot today, this was 1980, the election year, and without going into detail, this place I was at, was rather creepy, staffed by a lot of creepy little grey men, who were to a degree, truth challenged, and I decided I didn't want to spend my life with this "crew".....glad I made that decision, but those early years shaped me. When I was "inside", I was reading things, you NEVER hear on the news, which is why most Americans are so dreadfully uninformed........but I came out with this default setting, "assume the worst, you might be pleasantly surprised" ....which means I haven't "stood down" since 1978.

Friends, family, etc, think that i'm crazed and paranoid, "preaching" either "doomsday" or the "end of the world"....I have to say to them, "i'm not saying IT WILL BE, the "end of the world", it'll just FEEL like that".

I would be writing a long post, if I told the things I've said would happen, before they did, and when they did...oh boy, the phone would start ringing, "my gosh, you were right"....when inside, I feel like the Jeff Goldblum character in "Jurassic Park", who said, "i hate being right".

In fact, I cant believe how fast things are devolving, but I agree with you, that the TIMING is truly unknown, and yes, one should live life with gusto and a smile.....and with that I post this doc on what happened in 1983...its not boring.

so with that, I send my respect, n

(one note....the disturbing thing I get from this, was that our President was UNBRIEFED while this potential nightmare was unfolding, and was only briefed AFTER, to me, that is unacceptable, and heads should have rolled throughout the entire intel community....listen to Robert Gates interviews in this....I don't think HE was briefed...but who knows, just like who knows WHY two Chinese chemical facilities and an American ammo dump in Japan exploded within ONE week)

68Camaro wrote:Most of this will be a long drawn-out process - I also have expected it to hit 25000+ before we hit the big one for several reasons. I'm not looking for the big one quite yet - I'm looking for their excuse to apply a GLOBAL QE4, which then pushes gold up big, and it's the GLOBAL QE4 that eventually leads to the big one. And that big one will catch people by surprise in its suddenness. So, barring a war, natural disaster, or zombie apocalypse - I think you can stand down from the near-term doomsday watch Neil. I think there is some time left, all of which should be used for careful preps.

At 24200 we're getting closer. Not that 25000 is magic number. Could go still further.