Trump Tariff Thread

[Treetop]

All I see is some think "free trade" is a government who doesnt have free trade whatsoever and will lie and cheat to get ahead and treats workers like dogs and destroy their environment to do so is perfectly "fair" to undermine our production and ability to take care of our own because like "trade is freedom" even if its with despotic nations that hate us. Surely no adult argues we have "free trade" with china?? Heck our situation with china doesnt even remotely resemble free or fair trade. This is some weird idealist dream that just doesnt exist right now anyway.

Also??? Kiss my commie boot if you want more medical supplies american SCUM.

[68Camaro]

Tariffs, or not, are not a factor in the US coronavirus battle - if tariffs in the context of coronavirus are being raised by anti-tariff folks that is a complete red herring . The fact is that the US is willing to buy any supplies we are short on at almost any price - any tariffs that might apply are trivial by comparison. And we could have both bought the needed stockpiles in advance, but didn't, as well as retained sufficient domestic production, but didn't.

As painful as the coronavirus containment and mitigation strategy has proven to be in both human life and economic loss (and/or money printing, which is another form of it) it may, in the end, be a benefit to us as a 1) a wake-up call to the US specifically to eliminate dependence on China for critical items (the issue has been raised but the greed of US corporations and investment houses has been too large to overcome without concrete evidence that we now have, 2) it has, for at least a generation, reminded seniors and taught younger people why public health and sanitary practices are critical, and 3) as a model exercise that can be dissected postmortem in order to develop the ideal strategy to manage the next pandemic in terms of identification, containment, mitigation, treatment, stockpile development and distribution, and vaccine development.

I'm fine with maintaining a relationship of some type with China because it is better to hold your enemies close, in order to understand how to develop protective and offensive strategies. But until recently we haven't been doing that well. The way China managed this (delaying and downplaying every possible revelation, most likely under-counting their casualties by a factor of 10 or more, and by buying the global market in protective gear - supposedly 2 BILLION N95 masks in January - before they revealed to the world that there was human to human transmission at a rate far higher than flu), and the way elements of the rest of the world (through WHO and other entities) kow-towed to China is alarming, at best. In a sense this has been a bad tactical event for them and will hopefully backfire, because they may have accidentally re-awakened the beast that American can be when threatened - and their strategy of quietly passing the US by over a period of decades until they have their boot on our throat may have been exposed in the process.

Why do we need to address future pandemics now? Without specific controls on animal/human interaction in China which they have so far have not had the will to impose for any length of time, these viruses will erupt out of those incubation areas and repeat at frequent regular intervals with new strains of various viruses. Pandemics are bound to repeat anyway, and they can come from any direction, including Africa and even Kansas (supposedly the source of the Spanish Flu) but instead of every 100 years or so they are now repeating at ~5 year intervals.

[Thogey]

Raise your hand if you have done business personally with mainland chinamen? My hand is up and my experience has shown me, their definition of dealing in good faith is much different than mine.

[Treetop]

In case some missed things like this....

" Leading US manufacturers of medical safety gear told the White House that China prohibited them from exporting their products from the country as the coronavirus pandemic mounted — even as Beijing was trying to “corner the world market” in personal protective equipment, The Post has learned.

Now, the Trump administration is weighing legal action against China over its alleged actions, a lawyer for President Trump said Sunday."

https://nypost.com/2020/04/05/trump-adm ... ioUxWb3Hcs

[Treetop]

Do your ideals of free trade with nations that literally dont have free or fair trade over ride the lives of your countrymen during a crisis? You might save a few bucks in good times but in bad you just dont get your products. Is it truly worth it for those ideals? Out of democrats, republicans and libertarians or greens I side with libertarians most often but as I see it they are insanely wrong on this and dangerously so.

[natsb88]

Do your ideals of free trade with nations that literally dont have free or fair trade over ride the lives of your countrymen during a crisis? You might save a few bucks in good times but in bad you just dont get your products. Is it truly worth it for those ideals? Out of democrats, republicans and libertarians or greens I side with libertarians most often but as I see it they are insanely wrong on this and dangerously so.

Total straw man. The difference is not "a few bucks." The difference is a drastic increase in the quality of life in this country over the last 30+ years. Even the poorest households in the US have refrigerators and (cell) phones, which was not the case prior to increased trade with Asia. Everybody advances faster when there is specialization and free trade in an economy. The Chinese people, overall, also benefit from increased work in their country. Their quality of life is also on the rise. Obviously not to the level of the US, and not for everybody in China (and it won't ever get there under communist rule), but increased trade has benefited a lot of people in China. Trading with a country does not mean you condone or endorse their government anyway.

I have not defended China's actions surrounding the coronavirus at all. They have obviously handled this very poorly and have put the entire world at greater risk by delaying and hiding information.

Tariffs, or not, are not a factor in the US coronavirus battle - if tariffs in the context of coronavirus are being raised by anti-tariff folks that is a complete red herring . The fact is that the US is willing to buy any supplies we are short on at almost any price - any tariffs that might apply are trivial by comparison. And we could have both bought the needed stockpiles in advance, but didn't, as well as retained sufficient domestic production, but didn't.

Tariffs are not a factor now because they have been suspended. They were a factor in what supplies we had on hand prior to the start of the coronavirus battle. Tariffs led to higher prices which led to a shrinking inventory of medical supplies. Higher prices incentivize less consumption. With the US government tacking on a cut, hospitals bought less. At current usage rates we are probably only talking about an extra day or two worth of supplies, barely a dent in the overall demand for this event. But that's still a day or two worth of supplies that were not on hand because the money that would have been used to purchase those supplies instead went to the federal government in the form of a tax.

"Leading US manufacturers of medical safety gear told the White House that China prohibited them from exporting their products from the country as the coronavirus pandemic mounted — even as Beijing was trying to “corner the world market” in personal protective equipment, The Post has learned.

Yep, that's bad. Evidently magic tariffs didn't stop this though.

New York is seizing supplies from private hospitals and is reportedly seizing shipments of supplies coming through the harbor that other states ordered. The US has teams of buyers overseas stepping in and buying up supplies that were already ordered by and destined for other countries. We bought a bunch of stuff out from under France. Our federal government is ORDERING domestic manufacturers to make supplies for the federal government and PROHIBITING them from fulfilling existing orders for other customers, including other national governments. So the US is doing exactly the same thing China did.

Raise your hand if you have done business personally with mainland chinamen? My hand is up and my experience has shown me, their definition of dealing in good faith is much different than mine.

I have, as have many of our domestic customers and of course all of our domestic suppliers. I have personally only dealt with a handful of Chinese suppliers directly and haven't had any major problems. But I am also well aware of the type of counterfeiting and scamming that goes on.

One of our customers did have major problems a couple years ago when the Chinese factory that he (and several of his largest US competitors) used suddenly shut its doors. It took about six months to set up new factories and get his tooling out of the old factory. His business took a big hit. But his business wouldn't exist in its current form without China. It would be less than a quarter of what it is today. There simply isn't a market for the rest of the goods at US-made prices. It's not that they would be 20% more if made in the US. They would be at least 300% - 500% more and nobody would buy them. That is a far more common situation than some of you guys seem to think.

We have a customer here in Pennsylvania who is originally from India and he assures us that India is much worse to deal with than China. He originally moved here with his parents and kept his manufacturing in India, but later moved his manufacturing here so he, and I quote, "didn't have to deal with those crooks anymore" There are honest and dishonest people no matter where you go. Personally the most difficult manufacturer I've had to deal with is one in Italy and the only businesses that have actually screwed us over are other US businesses.

Does relying on China for so much manufacturing make us more vulnerable to things like pandemics? Yes. Would we be better prepared if we had more domestic manufacturing capacity for certain products? Yes. Are tariffs going to fix that? No way.

A country that steal our intellectual property which is our best asset in a global market. It hurt them enough they appear atleast close to maybe possibly ending some of their games. Probably not but atleast we tried.

The entire landscape for intellectual property changed with the widespread adoption of computer design, programming, and the internet. IP is not what it once was and we can't go back. There are still successful companies and products that rely on closely held IP, but that business model is shrinking. In its place we have a whole new economy of open source projects and products. Globally collaborative designs and rapid prototyping have enabled much faster iterative testing and product development, and some of the most secure and most widely used software is open source. Any small company can coordinate manufacturing from a laptop on their kitchen table. Consumers get better products, faster, and for less. Governments and IP laws have not kept up with technology. The biggest barrier to entry in nearly every market, the most stifling force, is the US government.

"At least we tried" is an emotional argument, not a logical argument. Yeah, maybe the math doesn't work, maybe the strategy doesn't even make sense, but we HAVE TO TRY SOMETHING!!!! That doesn't make sense. The trade war is the right's "Green New Deal"

[68Camaro]

Tariffs, or not, are not a factor in the US coronavirus battle - if tariffs in the context of coronavirus are being raised by anti-tariff folks that is a complete red herring . The fact is that the US is willing to buy any supplies we are short on at almost any price - any tariffs that might apply are trivial by comparison. And we could have both bought the needed stockpiles in advance, but didn't, as well as retained sufficient domestic production, but didn't.

Tariffs are not a factor now because they have been suspended. They were a factor in what supplies we had on hand prior to the start of the coronavirus battle. Tariffs led to higher prices which led to a shrinking inventory of medical supplies. Higher prices incentivize less consumption. With the US government tacking on a cut, hospitals bought less. At current usage rates we are probably only talking about an extra day or two worth of supplies, barely a dent in the overall demand for this event. But that's still a day or two worth of supplies that were not on hand because the money that would have been used to purchase those supplies instead went to the federal government in the form of a tax.

Good try, but it's a demonstrably incorrect and factually bankrupt argument. Every medical supply that we needed to fight the pandemic is still domestically made (though not at levels that could respond to a global pandemic within a few weeks without a solid stockpile): N95s respirators, surgical masks, face shields, gowns, ventilators (as well as body bags and refrigerator trailers for the bodies). They could have been bought in advance for our stockpiles - but those in charge of stockpiles chose not to, not because of price per unit but because they had no vision of leadership and were beholden to the bottom line and viewed stockpiles of goods as wasteful - and so many of those goods were exported to other countries, so it's not even like our pricing wasn't at least somewhat competitive.

[Treetop]

The difference is a drastic increase in the quality of life in this country over the last 30+ years. Even the poorest households in the US have refrigerators and (cell) phones, which was not the case prior to increased trade with Asia. Everybody advances faster when there is specialization and free trade in an economy.

Lots of things you said I could comment on but I found this the most interesting and pertinent. Most families had refrigeration in the Us way before 30 years ago. Cell phone barely existed 30 years ago and if they cost more more people would have lower level versions is all. Are you Truly going to pretend we have a fre trade economy with asia though? this is just factually wrong. I assume you know this. Even if you hate what Id want out of trade where we try to protect key industries and related issues surely you are intelligent and honest enough to admit trade with china and some other places is FAR from "free trade". There is no libertarian ideal existing between the US and china. Any adult with basic understanding of trade between the two knows this. It doesnt take an expert to know china is not called out for breaking international trade rules. I guess you and some friends benefit?? They need to be held to the floor. Even just their currency manipulation alone is enough to warrant calling them out. No other major players could get away with it. Youve made clear many times you rely on near slave labor out of china and how "idealistic" it is to want "free" trade, but again are you Nate seriously going to claim we currently have FREE TRADE with china? Its only "free trade" one way. I know I got a bit aggressive here and sorry for that but China has made it clear to me we are NOT friends. I have kids and thus a theoretical future. If china is clearly not my friend I want us to stand to it.

[68Camaro]

And BTW I really have no interest in debating tariffs - but coronavirus medical supplies have nothing to do with the argument, so make your points some other way Nate, just don't bring in stuff that has nothing to do with the argument.

[Treetop]

My wife claims my last post was extremely rambling lol. Maybe so. Either way ignoring the points I made my only question is... Does Nate or anyone else claim we have real actual "free trade" with china. I posit this is a libertarian ideal that never existed and certainly doesnt now with asia in general and china especially.

[Thogey]

China forces Italy to buy same coronavirus supplies it had donated to Beijing a few weeks ago

https://www.foxnews.com/world/china-ita ... s-buy-back

Like all news stories might be total bs. But it wouldn't surprise me. Its how they roll.

[natsb88]

Are you Truly going to pretend we have a fre trade economy with asia though? this is just factually wrong. I assume you know this.

I never said we had free trade with Asia. My position has been, and continues to be, that tariffs are contrary to free trade and cause more harm than good for the United States. Throwing more anti-free-trade measures on top of an already imperfect market is an overall negative for US consumers. China doesn't pay tariffs. Chinese companies don't pay tariffs. US importers pay tariffs, and have to pass those costs along to US consumers. Tariffs are a transfer of wealth from US consumers to the US federal government. The handful of domestic jobs "saved" or "created" by tariffs is far outweighed by the increased cost of goods to US consumers. It's a good deal for the government; it's a bad deal for the people.

Youve made clear many times you rely on near slave labor out of china and how "idealistic" it is to want "free" trade, but again are you Nate seriously going to claim we currently have FREE TRADE with china?

Again, no. Strawman. Never said that. Of course we did not have perfect free trade prior to the tariffs. But we have even less free trade with the tariffs in place. It's not a binary issue.

"Near slave labor" is your pejorative. You benefit from Chinese labor too, as much as you may not want to admit it. Perhaps less so than other people, but if you drive a vehicle less than say 30 years old, use any electronic devices, any appliances, buy parts and tools to repair things, use any pharmaceuticals, buy anything made of steel or plastic, buy clothing, linens, home furnishings, furniture, FOOD from a grocery store, or just about anything else, you are either directly consuming imported goods/components, or benefiting from the competition via lower prices. If you dislike Chinese made goods so much, you are free to seek out and purchase only US made goods. Vote with your wallet. Pay those higher prices (if the goods are even available). You don't need the government to force US consumers to pay more taxes in order for you yourself to stop buying Chinese goods. Just do it.

You keep bringing up this "humanitarian" argument but China exporting goods is the driving force improving their quality of life. Tariffs don't make life better for Chinese workers. That money doesn't go to them. Tariffs aren't increasing prices and wages in China. If anything, US tariffs on Chinese goods put downward pressure on the price of Chinese goods, which is bad for Chinese workers. If you think the Trump tariffs are a means of forcing the Chinese government to make sweeping changes to the way they govern, treat intellectual property, or pay their workers, well...I don't know how to explain just how unrealistic a premise that is. It's like "Mexico will pay for the wall" unrealistic, but ten times worse .

Any political agreement coming out of that is lip service on paper only and totally unenforceable. China making and selling stuff that people want is how life gets better for people in China. Looking back at the US industrial revolution by today's standards, things look pretty bad. Child labor, dangerous coal mines, sweat shops. But the alternatives for those people were even worse. A crappy apartment with a single bare light bulb is still a step up from an unheated shack with no power. They were making progress and it was a stepping stone to where we are today, just as China is going through their own period of rapid growth and modernization. Taking away the work they have is not how you improve working conditions

I know I got a bit aggressive here and sorry for that but China has made it clear to me we are NOT friends. I have kids and thus a theoretical future. If china is clearly not my friend I want us to stand to it.

I agree that China is not a friend. But you don't have to be friends to have mutually beneficial business relationships. China has plenty of terrible policies that we should be aware of and opposed to. But if they want to sell us goods that are in demand, at a price lower than we can make them for ourselves, buy it! This won't last forever. As China becomes more developed and their quality of living rises, the price of Chinese goods will continue to increase. Eventually a less developed country (perhaps India?) will take over more of the lower end manufacturing market share. This is how nations develop and modernize.

And BTW I really have no interest in debating tariffs - but coronavirus medical supplies have nothing to do with the argument, so make your points some other way Nate, just don't bring in stuff that has nothing to do with the argument.

The Trump Administration Is Still Charging 25 Percent Tariffs on Disinfectants Used To Combat COVID-19

President Donald Trump's tariffs are crimping supply chains for chemicals used to manufacture disinfectants and cleaning products—items that are needed to combat COVID-19 and that will be in even higher demand as the economy reopens.

In a letter sent last week to U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer, the American Chemistry Council, an industry group, highlighted dozens of items that are subject to the Trump administration's tariffs. The list sent to Lighthizer includes various chemical building blocks used to manufacture everything from soap to detergent, and surface cleaners to bleach.

One of the most important is isopropyl alcohol, a critical ingredient in hand sanitizer and other disinfectants used by households, the food service industry, and first responders. Since 2018, imports of isopropyl alcohol from China have been subject to 25 percent tariffs.

"The tariff is making it more difficult for companies to supply our nation's essential workers with antiseptics and sanitizing products they need to protect themselves and others from COVID-19," Chris Jahn, president and CEO of the American Chemistry Council, tells Reason.

The Trump administration took action in March to exempt medical equipment—including face masks and personal protective equipment (PPE)—from its tariff regime. But those exclusions did not apply to chemicals, like isopropyl alcohol and the dozens of other items on the council's list that are not strictly defined as medical equipment but remain crucial to many products used by health care workers.

Trump's tariffs are also affecting companies that need to purchase disinfectant wipes and other cleaning products. "According to the CDC guidelines…to prevent the spread of COVID-19 it recommends the use of EPA approved disinfectant wipes," wrote Daniel Marquardt, principal owner of Hilo Industries LLC, a Virginia-based construction contractor, in a tariff exemption request filed last month. Hilo, like many other businesses across the country, needs to import tubs of disinfectant wipes that will be "used by our customers, employees, and their customers to enable them to work and patronize safely to help combat and control COVID-19," Marquardt wrote.

But the tariff exemption process is opaque and slow—far from the ideal way to relieve the stress tariffs are causing. Sens. Tom Carper (D–Del.) and Pat Toomey (R–Pa.) have urged the Trump administration to move more quickly and issue more tariff exemptions in order to speed the response to the pandemic, but White House trade adviser Peter Navarro has laughed off those concerns as "fake news."

https://reason.com/2020/05/05/the-trump ... -covid-19/



The federal government says that businesses must purchase and utilize specific types of supplies if they want reopen / remain open, and collects an arbitrary 25% tax on said supplies. Hmm...

Just ask NHsorter what the isopropyl market is like

[Treetop]

I get wanting cheap goods, but as I see it we can set up to get them from nations that are open to us and not taking our intellectual proerty and manipulatining currency and the like. Trump for instance often talks of our trade discrepancy with china and this doesnt bother me at all. Its their stealing of tech, currency manipulation, and lack of enviro law that bothers me. I believe in fair trade honestly. Which in a basic sense means free trade with countries similar to us, japan, EU, SK etc. I like making up differences with other types of nations with tariffs. (like our founders did, but not exactly trying to make them make my case, was a different world)

What I think covid 1984 showed us though is it IS important to keep atleast some production of key things for medical and war in the states. For basic national security.

I respect you. I get why you think the way you do,..... I think. At least in a general sense. I just think we are powerful enough we can use trade to ensure we are always relatively powerful even if not the top. Reading of history tells me wed be VERY short sighted to not see this and make plans for it. More than half our youth BEG for "BREAD and circuses", rather then a decent market to find a decent job to build a life and family.