Realcent.org

Corsair wrote:"The reason why your view is incorrect is because the Bible says God created Man, not that he created plasma and man spontaneously evolved from the plasma."

So evolution is incorrect because the Bible says that God created man, not that God created a universe that, on one special location, developed life? LT, the Bible is the work of man's brain. It wasn't written by God. There are dozens of other "Bibles" out there, all saying their own thing, all with followers just as devout as Christians. Had you been born in India, you would laugh at the idea of Christianity, assuming that you'd even ever heard of it. Your religion is based on the flip of a coin. Where are you going to be born? At what time on the planet? Who are your parents? What is the nearest place of worship and what kind of gas mileage does your car get? All of these things relate directly back to what religion a person has, moreso than what religion is actually true. Knowing that, you have to take everything, everything that comes from the Bible or from the Church with a grain of salt. I believe some of it, because I think it helps me live a better life. Would I deny science because my religion tells me to? Of course not.

in an above post, david, you refer to yourself as "christian"

out of curiosity, why do you choose to label/associate yourself with a group of people if you only believe some of what they teach ?

your "open mind" approach to god and creation and chance happenings in life follows closer to hinduism than christianity

one of the core beliefs of christianity is in the inspired and inerrant scriptures

are you trusting your own feelings to allow you to pick and choose which parts you want to believe?

I choose to call myself a Christian because I believe that God sent His only son to die for our sins. Do you believe that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into Heaven? Because the last time I checked, it was literally impossible for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle. So that means it's impossible for the rich to get into Heaven? If you don't believe that, then you aren't practicing what you preach. Do you believe that God is loving? That God created us in His image? But oh by the way, if He created you gay, you're going to burn in hell? Do you believe that Christianity is right just because the Bible says it's right? Had you been born in Pakistan, you wouldn't even know Christianity exists. You would fight to the death to support your religion, Islam, as being the only true religion.

And yes, I trust my own feelings to pick and choose what parts I want to believe. Who is it to tell me what to believe? That's bull[excrement]. They don't know a damn thing more about the truth than the flip of a coin or the roll of a die. I believe what makes me into a better person and allows me to live a life I find satisfactory. I believe what I do so that I can go to sleep at night thinking that I'm doing the right things. And how is me picking and choosing what to believe any difference from the Council of Carthage that met to decide what goes in the Bible? All kinds of books were left out. How did they choose? How did they know? Did God tell them? Or was it just another case of man making up man's mind about the Christian religion?

Corsair,

Your ideas are the same I would use to argue the point. It was the way I have argued my whole life... Since I could talk. One class in university was on constructionist theory and what I learned that day was the basis of how my own thoughts and arguments worked. I was the only one in the class that naturally thought that way.

Everything we know has value that some one gave to it. We have to decide how we want to interpret that value. This also means there is no intrinsic right or wrong.

Jesus' parables have a double meaning. First, there is the literal meaning, apparent to anyone who has experience with the subject matter. But beyond the literal meaning lies a deeper meaning – a beneath-the-surface lesson about God's truth and his kingdom. For example, the parable of the leaven (see Matthew 13:33) describes the simple transformation of dough into bread by the inclusion of the yeast. In like manner, we are transformed by God's kingdom when we allow his word and Spirit to take root in our hearts. And in turn we are called to be leaven that transforms the society in which we live and work. Jerome, an early church father and biblical scholar remarked: “The marrow of a parable is different from the promise of its surface, and like as gold is sought for in the earth, the kernel in a nut and the hidden fruit in the prickly covering of chestnuts, so in parables we must search more deeply after the divine meaning.”

I agree with you Corsair on the Council of Nicea and the Council of Carthage, etc. Constinople did a great diservice as well when he "united" the church. He was not looking for the truth but a unified religion to pacify and control the subjects.

I made a post last year I think on the Pseudepigrapha, and I believe we should study all the old texts for context conditions of society and things at the time. I have a great book in my sig for what was going on in the Roman Empire for exactly that reason.

As far as God making you to be born "gay", have you looked into all the things that cause hormonal imbalences? Lavender is turned into an estrogen when metabalised by the body I believe for instance. Nobody knows what all the BPAs and litterally thousands and thousands of things we either put into our body or are exposed to do to our physiological and emotional states. Im just sayin.

I just wanted to weigh in with my .02 on the literal parables thing, not be confrontational.

We also have to look at the original languages. Such as the commandments. We are taught that Exd 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Mostwould assume that as long as we are not worshiping Satan, or Bhudda, or Molech or what not that they are ok. BUT when we look at the original meaning of the word that was translated as gods, we find that it acutually means:

1) (plural)

a) rulers, judges

b) divine ones

c) angels

d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)

a) god, goddess

b) godlike one

c) works or special possessions of God

d) the (true) God

e) God

So it could be translated to say thou shalt have no other rulers/judges before me. Thatis not in any church I knowof today, probably because they submited to the authority of the Gov through 501(c)3 incorporation (remember to incorporate means to be brought into the body of) and are NOT ALLOWED to speak the truth now, they gave up the authority God gave them and submitted to the State for benefits (tax exempt status).

Again, I did not wish to come off confrontational, but wanted to weigh in on taking parable teachings literally.

I hope I don't seem confrontational either. I just want to get across my views, which seem to be few and far between nowadays. Kurr, you present a great point - what does a passage in the Bible actually mean? Is it word for word (stone people who sleep with women on their periods?), or is it a metaphor (just ... don't sleep with women on their periods?). Yet again, that introduces the error of man into the argument. First, you have to take the huge assumption that Christianity is correct. Then you take the massive assumption that the Bible is the word of God, given through divine inspiration. Then, after all of that, man has to decide whether to believe it word for word, or try to decipher the metaphorical guidelines. As my Chemistry teacher taught me this semester, never round your calculations until the very end. If you have an equation come out to be 2.002 and you make that 2, when you use that number again, your error will be compounded over and over again until it seriously flaws your answer.

Another good aspect. You mention stoning as punishment.

Many do not understand that some things such as what you mention were under differant covenants. That was Mosaic law. Jesus fuffiled the law and as a consequence of that we are no longer under that particular set of laws.

The old testament said we were not to eat pork, as it was an unclean animal. What jesus taught was that it was not what we put into our mouths that made us unclean but what came out of it (our mouths), and our hearts.

We are now under Grace as opposed to Law.

there have to be some absolute truths

otherwise what if the thing i do that "allows me to live a life i find satisfactory" is to destroy someone elses, like your, existence ?

a person should be able to live their life without interference from others

harming someone else should be intrinsically wrong , no ?

your "religion" is none of my business, i was just interested in why you felt you even needed the label of "christian" if you are doing what you think is right by your standards

not trying to offend - in the end we are only accountable for ourselves

Alone-

I'm not saying I live my life as a High Machiavellian. I don't take what I want from others and think of only myself. I made the comment of "living a life I find satisfactory" as meaning that I don't adhere to the specific rules a religion puts out unless I find them to be beneficial. I fasted for Lent. I gave up chocolate and eating in between meals. Did I do that just because the Church told me to? No. I don't attend mass on Holy Days of Obligation. Who is obligating it? Man. I live my life as a subject to no man. You only get one shot at life (unless reincarnation is true, which it very well might be), and I'm not going to waste it by contorting myself into a shape that doesn't fit the shape I want it to be.

One question (among many) that I have about the infallibility of God's Word is that the subject matter was and is subject to interpretation... which IS subject to fallibility. Kurr, perhaps you can confirm this, but I've heard and read that the original text of the Bible was recorded in ancient Hebrew, which was an oral language. According to the sources I've read, when the Bible was retranslated several hundred years after it was originally recorded, there was no one left who spoke and understood the original context of the Hebrew as spoken in various intonations. Some words had several meanings, and the translator chose what he believed to make the most sense within the context. If so, did he choose correctly? Every translation since then has reopened the Bible to the possibility of misinterpretation (Aramaic/Hebrew vs Greek meaning). So I can understand how those privy to the nuances present in the interpretive branches of translating tomes might question the final output. Yes, it was the Word of God, but it is the Work of Man that we read today. How do we know for certain that it is "correct?"

I dont want to get in a debate just point out a few things that are scripture related

Do you believe that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into Heaven? Because the last time I checked, it was literally impossible for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle.

this is a reference to the the entrance to the city not a sowing needle.

But oh by the way, if He created you gay, you're going to burn in hell?

Sin creates what you are stating here not God. You were born into the world a sinner so until you accept christ and make him lord of your life and turn away from this way of life you will be a sinner. all have fell short but not all are sinners.

As I understand it, the old testament was mainly aramaic/hebrew and the new in Greek/possibly latin.

Kurr wrote:As I understand it, the old testament was mainly aramaic/hebrew and the new in Greek/possibly latin.

Wikipedia explains it better than I did. "The Tanakh was mainly written in Biblical Hebrew, with some portions (notably in Daniel and Ezra) in Biblical Aramaic. From the 9th century to the 15th century, Jewish scholars, today known as Masoretes, compared the text of all known biblical manuscripts in an effort to create a unified, standardized text. A series of highly similar texts eventually emerged, and any of these texts are known as Masoretic Texts (MT). The Masoretes also added vowel points (called niqqud) to the text, since the original text only contained consonant letters. This sometimes required the selection of an interpretation, since some words differ only in their vowels—their meaning can vary in accordance with the vowels chosen. In antiquity, variant Hebrew readings existed, some of which have survived in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Dead Sea scrolls, and other ancient fragments, as well as being attested in ancient versions in other languages.[

Corsair wrote:I choose to call myself a Christian because I believe that God sent His only son to die for our sins. Do you believe that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into Heaven? Because the last time I checked, it was literally impossible for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle. So that means it's impossible for the rich to get into Heaven? If you don't believe that, then you aren't practicing what you preach. Do you believe that God is loving? That God created us in His image? But oh by the way, if He created you gay, you're going to burn in hell? Do you believe that Christianity is right just because the Bible says it's right? Had you been born in Pakistan, you wouldn't even know Christianity exists. You would fight to the death to support your religion, Islam, as being the only true religion.

Christianity was introduced into the Far East by Saint Thomas, who was one of the original Twelve. Thomas' disciples spread the Word all the way to Japan by 900 AD. Thomas was martyred in India for his faith. My daughter has stood on the very spot of his martyrdom.

Yes, if you were born in Pakistan you could know the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Pakistani Christians are persecuted for their faith to the death to this very day. Pakistan has blasphemy laws that are used to force Christians to convert or die. http://www.compassdirect.org/english/co ... stan/98521

I respect your desire to live your life on your terms, and will defend your right to do so. If you would permit, I would recommend you to study the Bible some more. There is a lot you don't understand. By studying it more, it will make more sense to you and you will learn how rich and fulfilling it can be. Likewise for the history of the Chruch. There is a whole other world of Christendom outside of what happened around the Northern Mediterranean. It is indeed a rich tapestry of faith and redemption.

Take your eye of the needle example. The Eye of the Needle was actually a small gate in the walls of Jerusalem used in times of war. The gate was so small, camels had to crawl through it on their knees.

Can you imagine how difficult that had to be for a camel to crawl on it's knees thru a narrow corridor with a heavy load on it's back? That is an illustration used by Christ to show that a rich man's greed is his downfall. It is easier for a camel to crawl thru the Eye of a Needle Gate than for a rich man to rid themselves of habitual, self-centered greed.

Another interesting thing to consider is that historians have poured through countless volumes of writings from Jesus' time and Jesus is only mentioned in one other piece of literature from that time period. And that was just in passing. I do find it curious that while Jesus was living, people in general had never heard of him. Is it possible those who followed him at the time greatly exagerrated his influence when they wrote about him?

scrapper2010 wrote:Another interesting thing to consider is that historians have poured through countless volumes of writings from Jesus' time and Jesus is only mentioned in one other piece of literature from that time period. And that was just in passing. I do find it curious that while Jesus was living, people in general had never heard of him. Is it possible those who followed him at the time greatly exagerrated his influence when they wrote about him?

you should read The Case For Christ. There is more contemporaneous verification of the Bible than most any other historical document. the book was written by an investigative journalists trying to debunk the Bible.

Just checking, did anyone get taken away that you know of?

Came home to a pile of clothes in my hallway and was overjoyed...then I realized my wife was doing laundry.

There are a lot of statements in this thread which could reeeeeally use an adjunct of "in my opinion". You are ALL entitled to your opinions, whether Christian or otherwise. Making a statement that X is not a true Christian because he doesn't do Y or whatever is just a bit silly really. Play nice kidz, it's the Christian thing to do.

Devil Soundwave wrote:There are a lot of statements in this thread which could reeeeeally use an adjunct of "in my opinion". You are ALL entitled to your opinions, whether Christian or otherwise. Making a statement that X is not a true Christian because he doesn't do Y or whatever is just a bit silly really. Play nice kidz, it's the Christian thing to do.

Maybe I missed this one DS. There is a lot of good rhetorical give and take, but I didn't read anyone exclaiming someone else was not a Christian. Are you referring to me when I rhetorically asked Corsair if he was a X'n? I did that only after he stated he would be a X'n only under a set of circumstances fitting his logic. My rhetorical comment included that only he and the Lord could decide that. Did I miss something here? I don't know about others, but I am playing as nice as I know how to play.

Christ himself followed the old testament so you can't claim to be a follower of Christ but pick and choose which parts of the Bible you agree with.

you can call this rhetorical give and take or definitial or call it not be a Christian.

WOO-HOO I made it!

Lemon Thrower wrote:Christ himself followed the old testament so you can't claim to be a follower of Christ but pick and choose which parts of the Bible you agree with.

you can call this rhetorical give and take or definitial or call it not be a Christian.

Oh.

Then I guess I'm not a Christian. Then I guess I'll have to pick a different religion which has just as much of a shot at being right as Christianity. Roll of a die, folks.

It's not a roll of the dice. Being a Christian is a decision. But nobody will do it right, that much we know. The words of the Bible are infallible, it is the rock. It's people who screw it up, usually people who think they are right. There is a lot in the Bible that I don't agree with or think is intolerant or impossible to believe. But, Christians choose to believe. That does not mean you have to listen to other Christians beat you over the head with the Bible. But you should, as a Christian, consider their point of view and see if Christ's words back up the positions. Those people also will fall short of perfection.

Thogey wrote:It's not a roll of the dice. Being a Christian is a decision. But nobody will do it right, that much we know. The words of the Bible are infallible, it is the rock. It's people who screw it up, usually people who think they are right. There is a lot in the Bible that I don't agree with or think is intolerant or impossible to believe. But, Christians choose to believe. That does not mean you have to listen to other Christians beat you over the head with the Bible. But you should, as a Christian, consider their point of view and see if Christ's words back up the positions. Those people also will fall short of perfection.

Had you been born a Muslim, the Quran would be infallible to you, it would be your rock.