Persecuted for believing in Christ

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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Mossy » Mon May 30, 2011 11:35 am

aristobolus wrote: [Do Christians and Jews worship Allah? Do Jews and Muslims worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Jews do not worship the Trinity, but Christians do lending some credence to the Islamic charge that Christianity is polytheistic. I think the concept is a bit of overthinking and unnecessarily complicates the situation. Some people can find a hair to split on a bowling ball.

Mohamed is regarded with greater reverence than Jesus, so if Christians are polytheistic for the way the regard him, then so are the Moslems.

As for the claim made by the Moslems that they worship the same god as the Jews and Christians, this is not accurate (although even some Moslems may believe it). Allah was, according to what I've read, originally a moon goddess in a polytheistic religion. The Moslems have a word for "lying for Allah": Taqqiyah. The usual definition is that it is "self defense", under the assumption that telling the truth would result in what /we/ would regard as an attack. Going back to the basics regarding Islam, that it is based on the moral code of a pack of theives and murders, an "attack" on Islam can be anything resistive to the spread of Islam, even simple disagreement. So, claiming that Allah is the same as the Christian and Jewish god is intended to make the sucker (potential convert) think that becoming Moslim is just switching from one Christian church or Jewish (whatever) to another. "Taqqiyah": something to keep in mind.

Oh, and that "good guy Moslem brother in law"? He better lay low or the devout will kill him, and take her as a slave.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby psi » Mon May 30, 2011 2:31 pm

Your last statement was in quite bad taste.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Corsair » Mon May 30, 2011 2:38 pm

psi wrote:Your last statement was in quite bad taste.


And sterotypical, and hypocritical, and the reason why religion can be so silly in the first place.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal. Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable."
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby psi » Mon May 30, 2011 2:51 pm

I went to school with Muslim people from a number of different countries, some of whom I would consider quite devout. By and large they were likable and intellectually well rounded people. To suggest that all devout Muslims have militant tendencies is a ridiculous fiction, and in fact it is exactly the same kind of trash that the real militant Muslims spew in order to demonize 'the enemy'.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Neckro » Mon May 30, 2011 3:02 pm

It's easier to hate a people if you dehumanize them to the extent you see them as animals. It's used to help soldiers cope with killing another human being. If you don't see them as an equal, its easier to justify a hate for the unknown.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 3:30 pm

Why do you keep veering off the OP? Here is a story from LOAS, not traditionally a Muslim country, where Christians have been forced off their lands, deprived of food and water, a coerced into signing documents renouncing their Christian faith.

Christians Deprived of Food, Water at ‘Critical Stage’

Local officials try to force expelled Katin village farmers to give up their faith.
DUBLIN, February 25 (CDN) — A total of 62 Christians forced from their village to crude shelters at the edge of the jungle in Saravan Province, Laos, are at a “critical stage” from lack of food and water, an advocacy group warned.

“The wells are drying up as they are going into the dry season, and their food supplies are exhausted” after villagers thwarted their attempts to plant new crops, a source from Human Rights Watch for Lao Religious Freedom (HRWLRF) told Compass. “The authorities have successfully gotten them into a situation where they feel defeated.”

Officials marched 11 Christian families, totaling 48 people, out of Katin village in Ta-Oih Province at gunpoint in January 2010 after they repeatedly refused to give up their faith. The officials left them to find shelter about six kilometers (nearly four miles) outside the village and confiscated the Christians’ homes, livestock, and essential registration documents.

Late last year, the 11 families planted rice out of season on commonly-owned village land to sustain themselves and avoid losing hereditary rights to their plots. On Dec. 26, however, village officials and former neighbors drained water from the plots, stamped on the rice seedlings and burned fences, leaving any remaining plants vulnerable to wandering bulls. (See, “Lao Officials Destroy Rice Paddies, Expel More Christians,” Dec. 29, 2010.)

The Christians then cleared an area near their camp for subsistence farming, but unknown persons burned their seed and farming equipment, HRWLRF reported.

“Villagers overheard authorities saying that the hardships caused by lack of food will eventually force the Christians to abandon their faith,” the HRWLRF source said. “At this point they’re going to stay where they are. But since they’re primarily farmers with no other skills, we’re certain that they cannot survive without outside assistance.”

Village officials have refused to allow the Christians to return to their former farmland.

At least two of the expelled villagers were hospitalized last April after a prolonged lack of clean drinking water, adequate food or housing, HRWLRF reported, and another man identified only as Ampheng died suddenly while praying for them.

The Katin village chief and other local authorities armed with guns forced a further seven Christian families, totaling 15 people, to leave the village on Dec. 23. The 11 families welcomed them and built additional shelters for them, though that put increased pressure on their limited food and water supplies.

The expulsions in January 2010 and December 2010 followed months of threats and torment, beginning with the confiscation and slaughter of livestock and the death by asphyxiation of a Christian villager identified only as Pew in July 2008. The villagers had converted to Christianity in May of that year. Immediately after Pew’s death, authorities incarcerated 80 men, women and children in a school compound without food until they signed documents renouncing their faith.

In 2009, however, they began worshiping again in private homes, raising the ire of authorities and leading to the first expulsion in 2010.

‘Breaking the Law’
By mid-February some of the Katin Christians had resorted to begging for food, a common practice among the homeless and destitute in Laos. But as one source told HRWLRF, authorities warned the residents of Katin and neighboring villages in Ta-Oih district not to assist the Christians as they were “breaking the law” by following Christ, even though the Lao constitution provides for freedom of worship.

Provincial officials in March 2010 assured the Christians that they had every right to remain in Katin village; in July the provincial authorities asked Katin officials to respect the constitution and other regulations that provide for religious freedom in Laos.

When village officials responded by threatening to shoot any Christian who returned, district and provincial officials made no further efforts to protect the families or relocate them.

In spite of these failed interventions, two additional families professed faith in Christ after the January 2010 evictions, another four families in July, and a further family in October after Katin officials warned that the previous six families would be evicted in January 2011 if they held to their beliefs. (See, “Officials to Expel More Christian Families from Village,” Nov. 9, 2010.)

Officials eventually rounded up the seven families and expelled them on Dec. 23, 2010. The incident was reported to the Ta-Oih district religious affairs office, but staff members there failed to respond.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 3:34 pm

Here is a story of Christian persecution from VIET NAM. Last time I checked it was NOT a muslim country. It is communist and the dominant religion there is Buddhist.

Two Evangelists in Vietnam Sentenced to Prison

Christians receive six and four years respectively for ‘undermining national unity.’
HO CHI MINH CITY, Vietnam, November 30 (CDN) — Two Christian evangelists, Ksor Y Du, 47, and Kpa Y Co, 30, were sentenced this month to six and four years in prison respectively for “undermining national unity.”

Ksor and Kpa, of the Vietnam Good News Mission (VGNM) church, received the harsh sentences on Nov. 15. House arrest of four and two years respectively also was added to the sentences, according to church sources and Vietnam’s Phap Luat (Law) newspaper. Both evangelists, who are of the Ede minority, live in Song Hinh district of Phu Yen Province, where there are some 20 VGNM congregations.

Ksor was one of many thousands of ethnic minority people in Vietnam’s Central Highland that participated in demonstrations in 2004 against religious oppression and illegal confiscation of their traditional lands. Many of the demonstrators were Christians. Along with hundreds of others, he was caught trying to flee to Cambodia following the harsh military crackdown after the demonstrations. He spent four years in prison and another year under house arrest.

In May of 2009, Ksor joined the VGNM, a house church network that has grown from 14 congregations meeting in homes in 2007 to 360 today. In spite of many attempts to register house churches, as provided by Vietnam’s religion regulations, only three congregations have been given local permission to carry on religious activities.

In September 2009, Ksor underwent three weeks of interrogation, and authorities pressured him to refrain from making international phone calls. His imprisonment had left him destitute and in poor health, and he has said he told authorities that he only called a relative in the United States three times to ask for funds for medicine and to repair his dilapidated house.

Phap Luat reported that he made 58 international phone calls, a gross exaggeration according to Ksor’s family. The newspaper reported that Ksor made the calls to take orders from abroad to incite people to join the illegal “Dega” church, which allegedly aimed to cause political unrest and demand independence for ethnic minorities in the Central Highlands.

Vietnamese authorities remain extremely suspicious of anyone who has dared to participate in demonstrations, especially if they become church leaders.

The two evangelists were arrested on Jan. 27. Ksor was on his way to the police station to answer yet another summons when he was intercepted by police, who tied his hands and dragged him behind a motorcycle to the station, according to village sources. He fell many times and arrived bloodied and bruised.

Both men were held 10 months without charges until their Nov. 15 trial, the area sources said. Authorities brought Ksor’s teenage daughter to prison and told her to testify that her father had made many overseas phone calls, according to VGNM leaders. When she refused, a female officer twice slapped her hard across the face before sending her away, the church leaders said.

During interrogation, authorities ordered both evangelists to accuse VGNM leaders of illegally starting the organization and to accuse Pastor Mai Hong Sanh of opening an illegal Bible school in Buonmathuot, sources said. The authorities grew angry when they refused.

During Ksor’s pre-trial incarceration, police from the commune, district and province visited his wife many times and pressured her to renounce her Christian faith, sources said. She steadfastly refused. They tried to entice her by telling her that if the family recanted they would be provided a monthly sack of rice, a new house and that her husband would be released immediately.

Ksor’s wife, A Le H’Gioi, attended the trial even though she had not been provided permission as required by Vietnamese law. She told church leaders that the presiding judge of the People’s Court addressed the matter of their faith directly, asking her husband, “Do you still insist on following the religion?” The judge also asked him, “After serving in prison already, do you still insist on staying with the Vietnam Good News Mission?”

She said her husband answered that he would not give up his faith in God even if it meant death. Christian leaders said the line of questioning contradicted assertions that the conviction and sentencing of the two evangelists had nothing to do with religion.

VGNM leaders said there were many other irregularities in the arrest and trial of the two evangelists, such as authorities’ failure to provide legal papers to their families as required by law.

Attempted Land Seizure
In another incident against Protestants this month, some 200 police, local defense forces and young thugs attempted to seize church land in Quang Ngai city in Central Vietnam on Nov. 11, assaulting the pastor’s wife in the process. Authorities called off the land seizure that evening.

The property belongs to the Vietnam Christian Mission, a church with full legal recognition since 2007. Though the Quang Ngai congregation has complete legal papers for the property, local authorities have been threatening to seize it for some time, according to the long-time pastor of the church, Nguyen Luan Ke.

Pastor Nguyen, in his early 80s, reported that the assailants assaulted his wife, causing her to faint and fall. Details and photos were posted on the Nguoi Viet Web site. Authorities seized two of Pastor Nguyen’s sons and put them in a paddy wagon but left the door unlocked, a church source said.

The two men escaped, taking refuge in the parsonage along with other members of the pastor’s family, and frantically phoned for help. One call reached a Christian leader who was in Hanoi. This leader alerted central government authorities, who promised to look into the incident. Pastor Nguyen said the mob withdrew at the end of the day, having terrified him and his family.

Vietnam has come under heightened international scrutiny for the confiscation in May of a century-old Catholic cemetery in Con Dau, near Danang in central Vietnam, that resulted in one death. Authorities reportedly intend to turn the property over to a private company to build a tourist resort. The incident led to the flight of more than 40 Catholics to Thailand.

On Oct. 27, six parishioners were sentenced to prison, some for 12 months and some for nine. This event has garnered much more international publicity than the Protestant ones above.

In its annual report on religious freedom released on Nov. 17, the U.S. State Department’s Office of International Religious Freedom pointed to some progress in Vietnam but devoted several pages to religious liberty violations, noticeably against Protestants.

Vietnam’s state-controlled media reacted strongly. The Nov. 20 issue of Lao Dong (Workers) newspaper published an article entitled, “Abusing Religion Issues to Sabotage Vietnam.” It described religion as connected with “imperialist and hostile forces.”

The same day, Nhan Dan (People’s Daily) accused the state department report of being based on “distorted information.” It called on U.S. officials “to verify the events right in Vietnam,” the very thing many observers say U.S. diplomats in Vietnam do.

On Nov. 22, a Quan Doi Nhan Dan (People’s Army) article described critics of religious liberty abuses as “black hearts under the name of angels.”

Some observers believe that the Five-Year Communist Party Congress to take place in early 2011 is contributing to an uptick in harsh measures against religions and human rights activists.

Protestant church leaders in Vietnam lament that no officials who have taken heavy-handed actions against religious groups and their leaders have ever been called to account, thus violating Vietnam’s own laws and regulations.

END
When I die, I want to go like Grandpa did. He died in his sleep..... Not screaming and hollering like all the passengers in his car.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 3:46 pm

My DAUGHTER was a missionary in INDIA. We knew the danger she faced. The Indian government read every email we sent to her, so we had to work out a code before she left to go there. Had they know her real reasons for being there, this would have been her fate.



Does someone now want to tell me I am unfair to Muslims? My OP WAS NEVER ABOUT MUSLIMS! IT WAS ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF PERSECUTED CHRISTIANS.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 4:08 pm

Her only crime was believing in Christ.

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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 4:38 pm

An Australian married couple moved to India with their two small children to spread the Word of God. When the village religious leaders found out about it, they sought revenge. One night, a mob ransacked their home. At gunpoint, the father and two small sons were forced into their family car. It was then torched and burned. The wife/mother was forced at gunpoint to watch her husband and children burn to death.

Image
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Thogey » Mon May 30, 2011 6:18 pm

Sheikh,

Those are great pictures. But those people deserved what they got because, centuries ago, CHRISTIAN Clergy and Monarchs killed a bunch of people and put them on the rack and stuff. Also Sheik, the Catholic Church has a mess of pedophiles.

So don't be stereotypical and hypocritical. We can just as easily come with just as many examples of Christian radicals, blowing [shucks] up.

The next post will be someone comparing US military action to this stuff.

And so the conversation will rotate.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 6:38 pm

Thogey,

So, you think I should stop?

I appreciate your ironic wit, but this issue just breaks my heart. I have been on a brief mission, and state-side this is where a lot of my money has gone in support. My daughter has been in six countries. We have knelt in prayer with people like this. Wept with persecuted people like this.

It almost makes me physically ill to read the callousness of some of the comments, and a PM sent to me.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Roadrunner » Mon May 30, 2011 7:03 pm

Wow. Just wow.

I can not BELIEVE some of these statements. It's sickening.

These Christians have suffered HORRIBLY, and many of you seem to brush it off.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Corsair » Mon May 30, 2011 7:14 pm

Before everyone goes jumping on Thogey, he was being sarcastic.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal. Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable."
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Neckro » Mon May 30, 2011 7:19 pm

People all around the world are suffering, why pick out one group to seek prayer for? Wouldn't it be a better idea to pray for everyone that is being persecuted for being different than the accepted norms in their societies?

But then again, everything is predefined by God, and everything has a purpose. I doubt my prayer would sway the predefined destiny that he has created.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Mossy » Mon May 30, 2011 7:28 pm

Corsair wrote:Before everyone goes jumping on Thogey, he was being sarcastic.
Trouble with sarcasm or "edgy humor" is that it is sometimes "over the edge".

Islam is undergoing a fundamentalist revival. Those laid back Moslems people here met are, according to the devout fundamentalists, apostates, to be killed. Indonesia used to be a pretty laid back place, but the Christians, animists, buddhists, and even a pretty tolerant branch of Islam, are getting killed by the devout. Times are changing.

Check Dearborn, Michigan. Read about how all of the rapes in Oslo were by "non-western" males. Other scandanavian countries have similar problems. France: those "disaffected youths"? Moslems. They burn cars every week, but the news media ignores them.

Best pay attention to people who say they are going to kill you. They might mean it.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Thogey » Mon May 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Mossy wrote:
Corsair wrote:Before everyone goes jumping on Thogey, he was being sarcastic.
Trouble with sarcasm or "edgy humor" is that it is sometimes "over the edge".

Islam is undergoing a fundamentalist revival. Those laid back Moslems people here met are, according to the devout fundamentalists, apostates, to be killed. Indonesia used to be a pretty laid back place, but the Christians, animists, buddhists, and even a pretty tolerant branch of Islam, are getting killed by the devout. Times are changing.

Check Dearborn, Michigan. Read about how all of the rapes in Oslo were by "non-western" males. Other scandanavian countries have similar problems. France: those "disaffected youths"? Moslems. They burn cars every week, but the news media ignores them.

Best pay attention to people who say they are going to kill you. They might mean it.


Hey man, you just got accused of being stereotypical, hypocritical and in bad taste.

And my balls are being busted. That's why you do not mix religion in a metal forum.

Thanks David. Bully for you! You are a smart kid and sure you know you we're a target of my sarcasm, as well.

Mossy, I look forward to reading more of your posts. I'll be reading, but done with this one.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Corsair wrote:Before everyone goes jumping on Thogey, he was being sarcastic.


I know Thogey was being sarcastic. Good sarcasm, like good comedy, always has a vein of truth in it.

I know the next step is for someone to show Christians behaving badly, only those radical Methodist are too sneaky for anyone to get a pic of them in action!
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 8:56 pm

Neckro wrote:People all around the world are suffering, why pick out one group to seek prayer for? Wouldn't it be a better idea to pray for everyone that is being persecuted for being different than the accepted norms in their societies?

But then again, everything is predefined by God, and everything has a purpose. I doubt my prayer would sway the predefined destiny that he has created.


You always seem to ask tuff, thought provoking questions! :) You are right! We should pray for peace upon all people.

Neckro, it is important to me because God has laid it on my heart. I like to think I am a tuff old bird. I have been around the block a time,or two and it is not easy to move me emotionally. Then, about 12 years ago, I ran into The Voice of the Martyrs. I had no idea the utter devastation being brought upon Christian communities where they have no voice in government. It shook me to the core and has continued to do so to this day.

It is important to lift up these people in prayer because God can be swayed into action. That is in the Bible in several places. And yes, it is predetermined that Christians will suffer for their faith. That is a major part in the Book of Revelation.

I am trying to educate the masses that the persecution of Christians is reaching Biblical proportions. The prophesy on Christians suffering in Revelation is happening now, before our very eyes. I am bearing witness.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby psi » Mon May 30, 2011 9:04 pm

When it was suggested that harm would likely come to one member's loved ones in particular, I thought that was going too far. I think we all recognize that religious persecution and other forms of xenophobic violence are very real threats to life in many parts of the world today. Personally I believe that a lot of this is driven more by desires for personal power or belonging than it is by true spiritual reflection.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 9:29 pm

psi wrote:When it was suggested that harm would likely come to one member's loved ones in particular, I thought that was going too far. I think we all recognize that religious persecution and other forms of xenophobic violence are very real threats to life in many parts of the world today. Personally I believe that a lot of this is driven more by desires for personal power or belonging than it is by true spiritual reflection.


Well, I am an old man now, so I can use that as a excuse. I don't fully understand what you mean. Could you be more specific?
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby psi » Mon May 30, 2011 9:42 pm

My phrasing may not have been especially clear. More or less I'm saying that those pulling the strings may be more cynical and greedy/power hungry than spiritual, and the younger more gullible people they manipulate just want to be on the winning side of something. It seems to happen similarly whether the uniting banner is religious or secular (e.g. communist, Nazi, etc).
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 9:57 pm

psi wrote:My phrasing may not have been especially clear. More or less I'm saying that those pulling the strings may be more cynical and greedy/power hungry than spiritual, and the younger more gullible people they manipulate just want to be on the winning side of something. It seems to happen similarly whether the uniting banner is religious or secular (e.g. communist, Nazi, etc).


In general, I don't think so. I have met many who have been imprisoned, or tortured, or scared for their faith in Christ. The world head quarters for The Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) http://www.persecution.com/ is just 70 miles from me. I used to go there often. On a side note, they are located in an old bank and have beefed up the security system in case someone seeks revenge for their work in freeing people imprisoned, or enslaved. They use any method they can, including political, to get people help. It was weird to go into their secured location the first time.

I am sure there are those who would try to get some personal gain from others suffering, that too was prophesied. They are the wolves in sheep's clothing. A good case in point was a village in Sudan about 11 years ago. They were running a con game on missionaries to get money to free their "enslaved" children. The children were being held by relatives.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby psi » Mon May 30, 2011 10:24 pm

To clarify, by 'those pulling the strings' I was referring to those who incite others to perform acts of violence against other groups for ostensibly 'religious' reasons, e.g. OBL.

My background is Roman Catholic and a number of priests who escaped persecution in the Soviet Bloc countries for practicing their faith are family friends. My understanding is that those regimes were so violently anti-Christian because they wanted the state to be the single highest authority. I believe that a religious autocracy that persecutes minority faith adherents has similar characteristics, both are enforcing uniformity of belief because it entrenches absolute control.
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Re: Persecuted for believing in Christ

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Mon May 30, 2011 10:50 pm

psi wrote:To clarify, by 'those pulling the strings' I was referring to those who incite others to perform acts of violence against other groups for ostensibly 'religious' reasons, e.g. OBL.

My background is Roman Catholic and a number of priests who escaped persecution in the Soviet Bloc countries for practicing their faith are family friends. My understanding is that those regimes were so violently anti-Christian because they wanted the state to be the single highest authority. I believe that a religious autocracy that persecutes minority faith adherents has similar characteristics, both are enforcing uniformity of belief because it entrenches absolute control.


Ah, now I understand! I agree with you.

As Rev. Richard Wumbrand stated about being in a communist prison: "When you are imprisoned for you faith in Christ, all the non-essentials are stripped away. All that matters is Christ." One of your priests may have known him inside Romania and had fellowship with him. I hope so. :)
When I die, I want to go like Grandpa did. He died in his sleep..... Not screaming and hollering like all the passengers in his car.
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Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay
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