Focus On The Policy, Not Wikileaks

[Country]

In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, however, we are in big trouble. The truth is that our foreign spying, meddling, and outright military intervention in the post-World War II era has made us less secure, not more. And we have lost countless lives and spent trillions of dollars for our trouble. Too often "official" government lies have provided justification for endless, illegal wars and hundreds of thousands of resulting deaths and casualties.

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/ron-paul/focus-on-the-policy-not-wikileaks

[billo]

Wikileaks was ambiguous before. Right now it is clear: a ruthless enemy of America. Not the U.S. government in particular, but all of us. Government, soldiers, but also citizens. Releasing info that can be used to target you.

There are many people in the government who are also enemies of America. Two enemies don't make a friend, as my new twist on an old saying.

[Redneck]

...

[billo]

Then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Publicly disclose on a permanent web page the amount and exact location within/around your home of your PMs and other valuables, along with info on the number and type of occupants of your home (including any pets) and their typical schedules. If you have a keyed alarm system, be sure to post the code, and don't forget to include the location of any hidden keys or other useful items. Better put in your email and bank account passwords while you're at it. And of course your name, address, birthdate, and social. Hey, don't withhold information here. You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

[Redneck]

...

[Thogey]

Then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Publicly disclose on a permanent web page the amount and exact location within/around your home of your PMs and other valuables, along with info on the number and type of occupants of your home (including any pets) and their typical schedules. If you have a keyed alarm system, be sure to post the code, and don't forget to include the location of any hidden keys or other useful items. Better put in your email and bank account passwords while you're at it. And of course your name, address, birthdate, and social. Hey, don't withhold information here. You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

touché,

Churchill withheld information from the British citizens about impending air raids.

He did not want to disclose the fact the Brit's had captured the Nazi omega decode system.

If he had, the enemy would have been able to adjust their code, there by jeopardizing the outcome of WWII

Was Churchill corrupt? I'm glad I wasn't put in his position

[AGgressive Metal]

Then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Publicly disclose on a permanent web page the amount and exact location within/around your home of your PMs and other valuables, along with info on the number and type of occupants of your home (including any pets) and their typical schedules.

I challenge you to list the disclosed information that is harmful to anyone other than the fools in our government.

[JadeDragon]

Here's a Wikileak that harmed MY security in British Columbia for absolutely no benefit in disclosing the information to the public. One of the disclosed cables was a top secret list of vulnerable potential terrorist targets in BC. Any dummy can guess a big bridge or an airport would be a high value terrorist target, but there are only two groups of people (military/security and terrorists) that get any value from knowing that (for example) a suburban battery plant in BC makes devices critical to national defense. The military knew already - and now every terrorist and wannabee terrorist knows about this place too thanks to the cyber terrorists known as wikileaks. Disclosure of the top secret list of potential targets only helps the bad guys and is going to cost ME more money in taxes to increase security around what were otherwise unknown but critical locations.

This is not about Sunshine and openness and funny stories it is about solders and civilians lives at stake. It is about national and international security. Why does wikileaks think they are qualified to decide what gets released and what gets redacted.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Publicly disclose on a permanent web page the amount and exact location within/around your home of your PMs and other valuables, along with info on the number and type of occupants of your home (including any pets) and their typical schedules.

I challenge you to list the disclosed information that is harmful to anyone other than the fools in our government.

I will pass on listing anything. I am too sick right now to bother. I am going to try to say this with respect, AM. Did you ever put your ass on the line for this country? Do you know what it is like to be expendable? To have it explained to you how the "odds" were on your side? How many times have you had another man's blood on you while you are trying to save his life?

I don't think you can imagine how damaging this has become to the safety of American (and Canadian) soldiers and GS personnel "in theater".

A Harvard study proved that insurgent violence rose significantly right after large organized protests against the war happened over here. Wikileaks is the mother of all antiwar protests and it will have a devastating impact on American security abroad. Without question, this will embolden our enemies.

I am going to assume that the "fools in our government" you speak of are upper echelon types who make policy. They will not be so much as singed by wikileaks. It is the little guy who will take the biggest hits from this.

Think about that the next time you see an ex-soldier missing an arm of leg. Think about that the next time you read in a newspaper how another soldier came home in a box.

You live in the land of the free because of the brave. Give them the respect, and safety, they deserve.

[billo]

I challenge you to list the disclosed information that is harmful to anyone other than the fools in our government.

That is precisely the reason for my stance, that this is harmful to all of us. Jade and Sheik already mentioned the extreme biggie, which you can see covered here:

List of facilities 'vital to US security' leaked
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11923766

To a "terrorist" (more properly a proponent of Islamic world government, using unconventional warfare tactics) you are not special just because you have a gripe with the government. So what? You are a living breathing Infidel Great Satan piece of camel dung to him, and a free ticket to paradise and 72 babes if he manages to kill you and him both.

(If your heart is on the side of America's enemies, then I'm afraid you're my enemy too.)

Geostrategic Baltics plans also leaked:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11933089

To release secret plans of this nature is treason. Russia has excellent intel capabilities, they may possibly have known about this, but we don't need to assist them in knowing our plans.

And of course you saw the many leaked assessments of foreign officials designed to hurt diplomacy. This is a warfare tactic, to divide alliances psychologically.

Military strategy (including surprise, therefore secrets), frank internal assessments, and diplomacy are all crucial for survival and success. No civilization can survive without some secrets. I want to survive, and I want my family, friends, and good fellow citizens (there are many good ones) to survive. And prosper. I also deeply respect those who get off their behinds and put their lives on the line so that we can go about ordinary life and business. So I'm against America's enemies, the ones who truly hate us all and everything we've ever stood for. If you're one of them, I'm against you too. Simple as that.

But Jade and Sheik already said it all, amen to them.

[Redneck]

...

[AGgressive Metal]

Then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Publicly disclose on a permanent web page the amount and exact location within/around your home of your PMs and other valuables, along with info on the number and type of occupants of your home (including any pets) and their typical schedules.

I challenge you to list the disclosed information that is harmful to anyone other than the fools in our government.

Did you ever put your ass on the line for this country? Do you know what it is like to be expendable? To have it explained to you how the "odds" were on your side? How many times have you had another man's blood on you while you are trying to save his life?

What a freakin' cop-out! Millions of people have fought for this country, and while I appreciate Kentucky not being over-run by Vietnamese and Iraqi invaders, that doesn't mean I am going to just bow to their opinion in a debate over policy. You can't even say anything that was leaked which will be harmful! Just vague statements about "our security." What specifically was released that upsets you? And what portions do you think that free citizens in a Constitutional republic do not have a right to know? This is an honest question!

[AGgressive Metal]

You live in the land of the free because of the brave. Give them the respect, and safety, they deserve.

Believe me, I respect the martial profession and am a student of military history, but the last time a US soldier defended my freedom was ... wait ... I was born in 1984 ... so about 40 years before I was born during WWII. Freedom has been steadily eroding since the "progressive era" of the early 1900s culminating in the Federal Reserve Act, income tax, 17th Amendment, destruction of the State Militias and replacement with "National Guard", followed by the New Deal of the 30s, the Great Society of the 60s, the gun-grabbing policies of Clinton, and the Patriot Act of the 2000s. Through all these usurpation of the Constitution and American freedom, our military has stood by and watched. So I respect their heroism on the battlefield and the whole ethos of standing strong for the guy next to you, but as an institution, the US military is not especially interested in anyone's freedom.

[billo]

the last time a US soldier defended my freedom was ... wait ... I was born in 1984 ... so about 40 years before I was born during WWII.

You've highlighted your own ignorance. No reply needed.

[AGgressive Metal]

the last time a US soldier defended my freedom was ... wait ... I was born in 1984 ... so about 40 years before I was born during WWII.

You've highlighted your own ignorance. No reply needed.

Cut the self-righteousness. If you count general deterrence as "defending", then absolutely they have defended freedom, but that's not what I meant. Panama and Grenada are not exactly what I would consider existential threats to the United States. There has been no hot war since WWII where our Constitution was at stake. You could argue that Korea was of great strategic importance given the proximity to Japan, but those boys in Vietnam did not need to be killed. We trade and have peaceful commerce with Vietnam today - the "domino theory" turned out to be a total farce.

[didou]

Then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Publicly disclose on a permanent web page the amount and exact location within/around your home of your PMs and other valuables, along with info on the number and type of occupants of your home (including any pets) and their typical schedules. If you have a keyed alarm system, be sure to post the code, and don't forget to include the location of any hidden keys or other useful items. Better put in your email and bank account passwords while you're at it. And of course your name, address, birthdate, and social. Hey, don't withhold information here. You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

That's a joke right ?

He his a private person. He didn't sign for government nor do he manage public wealth. He own nothing to no one. It's his own wealth and he do whatever he please with it, he don't own it to the public. The only thing he own it's being legal and the police make sure it is, if it ain't he will be judged and all record of his trial will be public.

Unlike government. They use public money, they are public people and have freely sign to be that when they took a oath on their honor and announce their public political campaign. People have right to know because it's their country, their money. Politician are nothing but hired by everyone to do their job. They must be legal and ethical and there is no police to be sure they do well their job, it's everyone burden to do it. That's exactly what wiki leaks does, ensure that they are doing their job properly while we know they are corrupt and they don't use public money for public but for their own goals.

That's nothing like a hypocrite. You can't compare the two, they aren't equal by any means. What are you proposing just doesn't make sense at all.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Focus on the copper penny, Not the spectacular dead spy on the news who's not dead yet

[billo]

If I could be so bold...stop foaming at the mouth a moment and think/listen carefully to what I am saying:

You cannot have security without some secrets.

My hypocrite challenge was valid. It's not about public servant/private citizen. The security of your person and belongings depend on some secrets, including the shape of the key to your lock and the password to your online bank account or PIN. The security of a nation likewise requires some info not broadcast. Period. No way around it. If you want to fantasize, fine. Our current military superiority is due to secret stealth technology decades ago, as just one example. Many national items are protected just as your house and bank account are. The idea that every piece of info can be public is a pipe dream. A death wish.

And anyone claims that no soldier protected his freedom since WWII should not be living on this soil. I am not going to give you a history lesson. But you should hang your head in shame. No kidding, I will not associate with such people. I wouldn't be surprised at Hollywood making such a claim, but surprised to see it here. Among other things, you're dissing the great efforts of SAC to protect against the real Soviet threat. You can't rewrite history to say there was no threat because we were successful in deterring it. That's the damn point! Thanks to their hard work, you are free to diss them. That makes me sick.

[billo]

You are also dissing all those who have served since 9/11. And although there are many aspects I don't like about the way we carried out our response, many things I wish were done differently, those soldiers are still over there responding to real threat to your freedom. And they are tangling with people that might otherwise be over here conducting operations around you, because the jihadists are attracted to the conflict. Again, I don't agree with many things about the way it has been done, but you are entirely dismissing it. I only wish you could spend ten minutes alone with either (A) a U.S. soldier who doesn't appreciate such remarks or (B) a jihadi who didn't get a chance to tangle with a soldier. My sincere hopes that you get one opportunity or the other.

I could also point out that throughout history, to my knowledge there has never been a nation, and especially a military, successful without some secrets. Wars are won and lost depending on the secrecy of vital information. This is reality, from Kadesh to D-Day. History is on my side.

I am sickened by some of the statements made on this topic and with the support of Wikileaks despite them publishing a terrorist attack site wish list that can affect not only America but many nations. It's almost enough to make me want to stop coming here, but RC is a great forum and this topic is, of course, off-topic. I am going to focus on PM topics and leave such people to their own devices. But I am going to note who is who, and I won't be associating with those who support evil. I've learned in life that compromising on trust and values is not a good idea.

[billo]

If you count general deterrence as "defending", then absolutely they have defended freedom

Ah, I overlooked that one.

[Thogey]

If I could be so bold...stop foaming at the mouth a moment and think/listen carefully to what I am saying:

You cannot have security without some secrets.

My hypocrite challenge was valid. It's not about public servant/private citizen. The security of your person and belongings depend on some secrets, including the shape of the key to your lock and the password to your online bank account or PIN. The security of a nation likewise requires some info not broadcast. Period. No way around it. If you want to fantasize, fine. Our current military superiority is due to secret stealth technology decades ago, as just one example. Many national items are protected just as your house and bank account are. The idea that every piece of info can be public is a pipe dream. A death wish.

And anyone claims that no soldier protected his freedom since WWII should not be living on this soil. I am not going to give you a history lesson. But you should hang your head in shame. No kidding, I will not associate with such people. I wouldn't be surprised at Hollywood making such a claim, but surprised to see it here. Among other things, you're dissing the great efforts of SAC to protect against the real Soviet threat. You can't rewrite history to say there was no threat because we were successful in deterring it. That's the damn point! Thanks to their hard work, you are free to diss them. That makes me sick.

Agressive Metal has great respect for those of us who served in SAC.

That much I know. I happen to know Agressive Metal loves SAC! Wow, born in 84. He was 5 years old when I did my first year in SAC.

I feel as old as Beauanderos

[AGgressive Metal]

I am all for strategic capabilities



My point was that none of the wars we've been fighting for the last 60 years actually have anything to do with preserving our freedom at home. They are mostly to enrich the military industrial complex or some other BS reasons. I mean bombing Serbia? WTF? Finding the right balance for defense is nearly impossible, so its easy to disagree.

[billo]

Agressive Metal has great respect for those of us who served in SAC.

Thanks for that note.

Well AM, all I can say is you misrepresented your beliefs when you stated that no soldier had defended your freedom since WWII. I'm glad to hear that you do in fact respect some of the other efforts to defend freedom. That's good. (You seem sure that everything else was BS though, and I wonder if you really have put enough consideration in to justify such a sweeping statement. That's a lot of lives, a lot of people giving it their all, to dismiss quickly.)

Still, overall this discussion deeply troubles me. Sometimes beliefs, viewpoints, opinions do matter. We try to sweep such things under the rug and agree to differ, but ideas have consequences and the stakes are serious. Perhaps it would be more polite to just laugh and shrug such matters off, but I've seen so many areas where popular opinion shaped the coming reality. It does matter. We need criticism of government, we need to change government deeply or even replace it altogether, but we must be also critical of anti-government efforts and not support harmful and misguided ones.

The Wikileaks operation has shown disdain for common sense, releasing info that has little valid purpose other than terrorism (as Jade explained) and compromising many other areas...and now using blackmail, threatening more damaging releases...they are not standing up for good, they simply have an agenda. Extremely dangerous precedent, working with insiders to release classified info. That makes them spies and recruiters/handlers, and their assets traitors. Lately it makes them look a bit like enemy cyber soldiers. Of course, if they were exposing the ultimate evil and doing so with care not to harm people unnecessarily, it would be acceptable and I would support them. But this big release shows that's not the case. They are willing to jeopardize lives and missions. They are giving valuable info to help any enemy conduct attacks. Allegedly they are also willing to sell dangerous info, according to a former associate. I don't need that kind of help; they are not a helpful entity.

[AGgressive Metal]

How about this then; the government's USE of the military has done next to to nothing to defend freedom since WW2. Were Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia/Serbia, Iraq I & II, Somalia, Lebanon, etc. really vital missions to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic? If you are honest with yourself, you will have to admit that the average serviceman who joined for the right reasons has not been given the opportunity to uphold our rights - while the Patriot Act is passed, the Fed inflates, and Mexicans swarm over our borders, our military is bogged down in Afghanistan protecting poppy fields. Its not their fault individually, so don't take it personal if you are a veteran of some stripe.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

How about this then; the government's USE of the military has done next to to nothing to defend freedom since WW2. Were Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia/Serbia, Iraq I & II, Somalia, Lebanon, etc. really vital missions to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic? If you are honest with yourself, you will have to admit that the average serviceman who joined for the right reasons has not been given the opportunity to uphold our rights - while the Patriot Act is passed, the Fed inflates, and Mexicans swarm over our borders, our military is bogged down in Afghanistan protecting poppy fields. Its not their fault individually, so don't take it personal if you are a veteran of some stripe.

Earlier you stated I was doing a "freaking copout" by not listing anything I found offensive. Specifically, here is the Harvard study I mentioned before: http://people.rwj.harvard.edu/~riyengar/insurgency.pdf. The authors admit their study is flawed, not perfect. But, it is the most scientific study on the subject to date.

This study found a 7% - 10% spike in deadly actions against Americans "in theater" for a average period of thirty days after a significant protest/national debate on the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. That does not sound like much, unless you are the one traumatized (or killed) by said spike in violence! That is specifically what is wrong with the wikileaks affair.

I will ask you again. Have you ever put your ass on the line for this country? You are long on carping about everything that is wrong, but AM, WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT???

Obviously, the military is not your cup of tea. What about civil service? Ever fight fire? Arrest some lawbreaker? Hell, how about even driving an ambulance? What about ICE? BATFE? USFS? USFWS? Risk taking civil servants live shorter lives than the average, slacker, American, but they serve their county.

What about politics. Did you ever have the guts to stand up to the opposition that wants to take away even more of our liberties on the protest line? They can get a little ruff, ya know. Did you ever run for office? Ever donate a significant sum of money for those trying to fight the good fight, like Dr. Ron Paul? Ever even lose sleep working in a political campaign?

One common theme I read from the wikileak defenders is they are long on listing everything wrong with America. They say this is good to expose our corruption for the world to see. However, when pressed, they admit all they have to offer is unworkable solutions impossible to implement.

If you don't like how things are, good for you! I don't like them either! GET INVOLVED! DO MORE THAN CARP ABOUT IT!

[Thogey]