So, What About Cuba

[johnbrickner]

I see we want to normalize relations with the island, embassy, lifting travel restrictions, airlines putting in flights, a big US delegation meeting officials, etc. So I'm wondering what the real deal is? What will be our greatest gain or reason for doing so? I have two ideas why we should be doing this, such as in 2007, The World Wildlife Fund's Living Planet Report claims Cuba the only true sustainable country in the world. We stand to learn a lot here. The other being the cigars to enjoy. I was wondering what you all thought?

[Thogey]

It's a good thing.

I am going to Cuba! It looks beautiful.

But, the Cuban people will relearn to hate fat assed, loud, idiot Americans about 5 minutes after the big tourism rush happens.

I don't think Americans will bitch about the new Cuban immigrant class though.

American tourists will bitch and whine because there are no Wal-Mart electric scooters, and no Wal-marts.

Americans will appreciate America after visiting Cuba. This is certain.

It feels like an unexplored territory. Its a huge island landmass and so close.

I want to go!

[cooyon]

I would love to go there too, with the foreknowledge that the hotel service industry would be about a hundred years behind ours. Agree completely about the bitching and whining from the ugly Americans, they won't accept that Cuba isn't hometown USA. Might be cool to see the old cars with the improvised engines.

When I heard about this my first thought was that it has very little to do with helping the Cuban people, instead it is a way for the banking cartel to begin taking over Cuba's assets by way of development loans, etc. The Cubes may become debt slaves to the IMF and lose their country to the bankers, as we are. My .02 .

[fasteddy]

I want to go to see if the old cars on the island are for real....how do you get 50 year old cars on an island not to self destruct from rust. I may take some factory parts there to sell and pay for my trip.

[Thogey]

I want to go to see if the old cars on the island are for real....how do you get 50 year old cars on an island not to self destruct from rust. I may take some factory parts there to sell and pay for my trip.

It's really amazing. There are these guys down there that fabricate everything from scratch. Or the retro fit pieces between cars.

The cars may look pretty from the outside, but they apparently are very far from Barrett Jackson quality.

[Treetop]

The World Wildlife Fund's Living Planet Report claims Cuba the only true sustainable country in the world.

They based this on "improving the quality of human life while living within the carrying capacity of supporting ecosystems"

Apparently improving the quality of human life is a very low factor in this, because cuba has a long list of continuing human rights violations. I wont buy things from any of the full tyrannies like china or when possible cuba anymore, only the half ones like brazil or western countries.

I spent a bit of time in miami. definitely an interesting culture. Very proud.

[Recyclersteve]

Many people like to do what is forbidden. Think about those who, when pressed, confess that they drank much more alcohol before they were of legal drinking age than after. As a country we've been told we can't travel to Cuba for decades. There is a pent-up demand for travel to Cuba because of the "forbidden" factor.

Then there is the bragging factor. Been to Europe or Asia or Hawaii? So have lots of people. Now, Cuba, that is something special. Imagine being the first person on your block to say they've been to Havana and smoked a real Cuban in Cuba!

[TwoAndAHalfCents]

Maybe it was finally time to get ready to start replacing all those cars in Cuba built in Detroit in the 1950's with all new models before some of the Asian car companies figure out how to capture that market. Politicians from the party out of power can claim it was all done to create high paying union manufacturing jobs or some other political spin like that.

[wheeler_dealer]

I work with a Guy who grew up in Cuba. We actually talked over weekend about Cuba. Apparently a lot of automobiles and motorcycles they use come from Germany. He says once the east/west German wall came down the Cuban people began getting lots of automobiles from there. Cuba is changing from within under Raul Castro. Seems he is much more liked by the people. U.S. political machine "industrialist" love this. Our potential biggest export to Cuba - inflation.

[Rustynail]

I think it's great good for them ...good for us. There was rumor that a Chinese company owned by the Govt. had offered to develop a port just outside of Havana, my guess that is mostly why we are normalizing relations...the thought of a major port run by the Chinese Govt 90 miles away from the US coast.

[blackrabbit]

I want to go to see if the old cars on the island are for real....how do you get 50 year old cars on an island not to self destruct from rust. I may take some factory parts there to sell and pay for my trip.

I saw a documentary about Cuba and it showed young guys repainting the cars using a piece a a sponge by hand. It was pretty amazing. I have read about their organic agriculture and health system which are top notch. They had to make agriculture work for the island without all the chemical fertilizers and pesticides. They have extremely low infant mortality, lots of doctors, etc.

I know people who have been to Cuba already in years past. You just have to go to Mexico or another country then go there. I helped out with an organization called Pastors for Peace which shipped a whole bus load of school and medical supplies there. I regret no going with them as it would have cost me almost nothing and I am sure would have been a great experience. I hear the women are pretty nice too.

[Treetop]

I have read about their organic agriculture and health system which are top notch.

Ive been told by several cubans that it isnt that great at all. You need to bribe your local doctor if you want seen in a decent amount of time or supplies to be used on you over others. Then there is the whole issue of how they essentially enslave their doctors and rent them out to other nations and keep most of the money for their own government. More and more of them leaving over this, a trend many seem to think will increase. When countries like brazil were giving the cuban doctors medical exams they were failing horribly. They do focus on preventative care, which is cheaper and overall effective but one can do this on their own anyway if you have access to the info such as online. then of course many medications are more accessible in their black market then through legal means. What is top notch about all of that? Brazils system also has comparable stats to ours, I find it much more interesting.

I wouldnt really call their ag system top notch. Cuba tries to convince their own this is true, and many left leaning sources really really want it to be true. They import a high amount of food for a country that gets so much credit for its farming abilities. Most of which is not organic. Something like 80% of their food is imported. (a number that was rising last I looked, and I do look cuba comes up constantly on growing forums, many really want cuba to have one cool thing) Their yields are fine but not exceptional, and low in some sectors. Before you tell me Im wrong I work in alternative ag and was told this from someone in the field out of brazil that worked with cubans and other countries and had a broad base to compare systems and yields per crop. We waste alot of food here at the consumer level but this is affluence based. they often loose it right in the fields through various in efficiencies.. That is true of most poor countries though. We havent really seen any major innovations out of cuba in the field. They fit a few previous models to cuban conditions but heck Im doing that for the desert southwest in my back yard and Im one dude. Just takes time and knowledge. there is certainly alot of excited articles about cuban ag, and a high percentage is organic (by necessity not choice they once led latin america in industrial ag chemical use) but top notch? ehh I dunno, we have 1000s of people in our own country pioneering dozens of entirely different and more promising models that are much more regenerative among other things. Plus like I said they cant even come close to feeding themselves, or havent yet anyway. the most interesting aspect of cuban farming to me is how much low tech urban growing they do, pretty neat, and also how much it all improved when they liberalized it a bit and let farmers actually make money on their own somewhat. Suddenly the farmers cared, and it blossomed into what they have now. (which still cannot feed them)

[Treetop]

I have read about their organic agriculture and health system which are top notch.

Ive been told by several cubans that it isnt that great at all. You need to bribe your local doctor if you want seen in a decent amount of time or supplies to be used on you over others. Then there is the whole issue of how they essentially enslave their doctors and rent them out to other nations and keep most of the money for their own government. More and more of them leaving over this, a trend many seem to think will increase. When countries like brazil were giving the cuban doctors medical exams they were failing horribly. They do focus on preventative care, which is cheaper and overall effective but one can do this on their own anyway if you have access to the info such as online. then of course many medications are more accessible in their black market then through legal means. What is top notch about all of that? Brazils system also has comparable stats to ours, I find it much more interesting.

I wouldnt really call their ag system top notch. Cuba tries to convince their own this is true, and many left leaning sources really really want it to be true. They import a high amount of food for a country that gets so much credit for its farming abilities. Most of which is not organic. Something like 80% of their food is imported. (a number that was rising last I looked, and I do look cuba comes up constantly on growing forums, many really want cuba to have one cool thing--editted to add, might have been 60% but well over half dont feel like looking it up) Their yields are fine but not exceptional, and low in some sectors. Before you tell me Im wrong I work in alternative ag and was told this from someone in the field out of brazil that worked with cubans and other countries and had a broad base to compare systems and yields per crop. We waste alot of food here at the consumer level but this is affluence based. they often loose it right in the fields through various in efficiencies.. That is true of most poor countries though. We havent really seen any major innovations out of cuba in the field. They fit a few previous models to cuban conditions but heck Im doing that for the desert southwest in my back yard and Im one dude. Just takes time and knowledge. there is certainly alot of excited articles about cuban ag, and a high percentage is organic (by necessity not choice they once led latin america in industrial ag chemical use) but top notch? ehh I dunno, we have 1000s of people in our own country pioneering dozens of entirely different and more promising models that are much more regenerative among other things. Plus like I said they cant even come close to feeding themselves, or havent yet anyway. the most interesting aspect of cuban farming to me is how much low tech urban growing they do, pretty neat, and also how much it all improved when they liberalized it a bit and let farmers actually make money on their own somewhat. Suddenly the farmers cared, and it blossomed into what they have now. (which still cannot feed them)

[johnbrickner]

Zak: You sure know the other side of the story. I had read and heard the same as Blackrabbit. Initially, Cuban's lost on average 12 to 20 pounds per person during the "special period" but, made their ag work w/o the additional energy and fertilizer inputs. I am glad to see you have validate what I also read about the urban growing and letting farmers make money.

Now I understand a decent amount of the health benefits experienced in Cuba was a result of the weight loss, decrease in meat eating, increased intake of plant food, and increased exercise. But, how do we account for the decrease in infant mortality (unless faked stats)?

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/3 ... medium.gif

The above showing Cuban infant mortality as low as the US and Canada with a GNP lower than Brazil. Thumbs up from me if this was a result of a preventative health care system.

20120101altieri-funes-chart2.jpg (27.43 KiB) Viewed 1577 times

This one from http://monthlyreview.org/2012/01/01/the ... riculture/
shows Cuba now importing 16% of their food instead of the previously reported 86% (01/2012).

I put the above one up on imports because I want to believe.

[Treetop]

shows Cuba now importing 16% of their food instead of the previously reported 86% (01/2012).

I put the above one up on imports because I want to believe.

Apparently this socialist magazine has an agenda. Your link is from 2012, here rueters from 2013 citing 60%.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/07/3 ... VK20130730 guardian cites rueters http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... on-farmers

here is world food programme in 2015 citing 80%

https://www.wfp.org/countries/cuba

heres an article from a few days ago citing 80% as well. american farmers eager to sell in their market.

http://www.cbs2iowa.com/news/features/t ... 3330.shtml

The gov there is pushing into GM crops actually. A controversial subject, but counter to what many think they are doing. LOL, I didnt want to have to dig it up. this one talks about thw yields going down.
http://www.martinews.com/content/cuban- ... 31117.html

"Now I understand a decent amount of the health benefits experienced in Cuba was a result of the weight loss, decrease in meat eating, increased intake of plant food, and increased exercise."
weird, I had heard they are eating more meat then ever.

[johnbrickner]

ZaK:

Thanks for bursting my bubble. Continued digging shows my belief system about Cuba properly wrong. I posted but took to long and so it was lost. I'm not going to repost but did find infant mortality rates attributed to improved education and nutrition as opposed to a superior health care system and nothing contemporary on meat consumption per capita. Also verified hurricanes for 2010 and 2012, leaving a good harvest for 2011 as the reason for good stats posted from my article dated 01/2012 and some reporting of salt water intrusion inferring a reason for current decreased production but no details.

[Treetop]

Thanks for bursting my bubble. .

Anytime. When we first started hearing about their claimed revolution in farming I was of course reading every scrap I could find about it. Its my field of study afterall. Only to find as Ive said that their yields are dropping (rather fast actually ) per area,and the only place this revolution of organic ag actually exists is on left leaning sites pushing social agendas. None of these stories give details, just a rosey picture of utopia to come. they had no chemicals so didnt use them, big deal. Apparently they dont even remember past methods of maintaining fertility let alone having revolutionized new ones as many want to think based on how fast their soils loose fertility, Ive never heard of degradation this fast.

"leaving a good harvest for 2011 as the reason for good stats posted from my article dated 01/2012"

I doubt it actually, your link claimed 16% imported right? without digging further Im betting those were the years they only needed 60%, rather then their standard 80% plus. Their soils are getting worse and worse not better, their yields are not trending better barring hurricanes so that doesnt fit what you are saying. Otherwise they would have had a string of years before and since closer to the 16% rather then the 60-80%.

when fidel was still alive selling the idea of this was apparently a thing. raul is more honest it seems, and attempting reform to a degree.

[Thogey]

Fidel is still alive. Just not by much.

[johnbrickner]

"leaving a good harvest for 2011 as the reason for good stats posted from my article dated 01/2012"

Otherwise they would have had a string of years before and since closer to the 16% rather then the 60-80%.

Agree completely. In my initial post that didn't make it I said basically the same. I should not have said "good stats" possibly interpreted as accurate but should have said "better numbers".

Also while digging I wanted to let you know I also found what you had been saying about GM crops, exporting their doctors, that they get paid $20/day (working for the govt.) so no wonder they can claim so much from their health care system for so little cost, difficulty with obtaining meds thru normal channels, and claims that numbers may not be what they really represent.

I can honestly say, it looks like I got duped by the propaganda too. Damn, people see what they want to see and I so badly want to see a better health care system (especially one based on prevention) and abundant agriculture w/o high inputs. Now that I'm aware I'm going to have to watch that.

[Treetop]

I can honestly say, it looks like I got duped by the propaganda too.

Its close to impossible not to do this without really studying any even vaguely political topic. So many overlapping agendas and biases out there.

I got into a kick awhile back of researching various things I always thought were true. Its been very eye opening. My most recent one is saturated fat. We now have many studies showing us it isnt nearly as bad for you as we once thought, and in some ways is superior then plant based fats. A harvard study I read the other day included over a million people and showed NO increased risk of heart disease from red meat consumption itself with the caveat that those that were eating processed meats DID have increased risks. Lots of variables involved here and details still be worked out but its very clear at this point saturated fats are nowhere near the boogeyman we once thought. Americans fat consumption has dropped considerably during the same period obesity rates doubled. Yet we still have very official sources pushing out dated and false stances on this, and simplifying what we are finding is actually a very complex topic. we have entire countries without the issues we are told saturated fats cause that get most of their fat from these sources. We knew this back when the first claims against sat fat came out, they simply didnt include it in their "study". Anyway, rambling on now, but little is what it appears at first glance... edited to add a link for anyone wanting an overview of the above. http://greatist.com/health/saturated-fat-healthy

[Engineer]

It seems like a good spot for medical tourism.