Local Economic Perspective (as overheard)

[franklin]

I was down arguing my property valuation which directly affects property tax here in Texas. It was fairly crowded in the waiting area, with about a 45 minute wait to see an appraiser assigned to one's piece of property in question. Two things to glean from the waiting area:
1) Listen to the guy(s) who just have to talk and give everyone their hardluck stories
2) Watch the people who have met with an appraiser and are leaving.

#2 first: I watched 3 people leave in tears, 2 having to sit back down in the waiting area to gather themselves before driving home. Each said their values, thus taxes, had increased so much that they would not be able to pay their taxes this coming year and were worried about losing their properties. Each was older than 65, thus still preserving a homestead deduction. However, in Texas, the appraisal board can raise value a maximum of 10% for homesteads. Not much in one year but when they hit you with the max for 5-8 years in a row, it adds up. Despite the low house sales here and sluggish economy, values are being raised.

#1: Before I met with my appraiser, I listened to 2 separate guys talking out loud to whomever would listen about how our country was headed for ruin. Both guys were in their early 50s or so. One guy arrived after the other left, thus never meeting. But both said they had buried cash and silver coins in a secret place because neither felt the banks would be trusted to let them into their accounts or safety deposit boxes when the 'inevitable' crash occurred.

Joe Citizen is worried, at least around here.

[Lemon Thrower]

how old were the guys burying coins?

I'm guessing 60's or older.

[franklin]

One said he was 52 and the other guy was probably around the same age. One said his 'old man' grew up in the Depression time and said this round wasn't quite as bad but could end up being so.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

#2 first: I watched 3 people leave in tears, 2 having to sit back down in the waiting area to gather themselves before driving home. Each said their values, thus taxes, had increased so much that they would not be able to pay their taxes this coming year and were worried about losing their properties. Each was older than 65, thus still preserving a homestead deduction. However, in Texas, the appraisal board can raise value a maximum of 10% for homesteads. Not much in one year but when they hit you with the max for 5-8 years in a row, it adds up. Despite the low house sales here and sluggish economy, values are being raised.

#1: Before I met with my appraiser, I listened to 2 separate guys talking out loud to whomever would listen about how our country was headed for ruin. Both guys were in their early 50s or so. One guy arrived after the other left, thus never meeting. But both said they had buried cash and silver coins in a secret place because neither felt the banks would be trusted to let them into their accounts or safety deposit boxes when the 'inevitable' crash occurred.

Joe Citizen is worried, at least around here.

How sad. I feel sorry for them. Texas does not have a personal income tax, does it? This is where a state income tax would do justice. The old, infirm or just out of work would not lose their property from taxes they could not pay.

Oklahoma has low property taxes and an income tax. IF we had elected the right guy for governor in 2010, we may have gotten property taxes abolished all together! My man didn't win, so we are stuck with the status quo for now.

The guys talking out loud about their secret stashes are true IDIOTS! A secret is only a secret as long as YOU KEEP YOU BIG MOUTH SHUT!

[brian0918]

I don't understand why values would be increasing - on what are they basing these values, if not comparable sales? For those people who are in trouble and still paying a mortgage, I would recommend that they just stop paying their mortgages, and see how reluctant the bank is to force them out of their homes. Since 2008, some people have been living in their homes for 1-2 years without paying their mortgage, because banks do not want the market to realize how low prices have yet to fall. They would rather keep people in their homes than go through a foreclosure process and drive the property value of a neighborhood/city down.

[franklin]

brian:
I suspect some are outright owners and don't have mortgages but if they don't pay their property taxes within a certain period of time, there is a 'sheriff sale' on the courthouse steps and whoever bids the highest gets the property.
I protested a rent house I have. My wife was born there and it is in the middle of town, near a university. The town is having hearings for every neighborhood and this one is one of the oldest neighborhoods. A couple of streets nearby have owners who have razed houses in order to put up eateries or townhomes. The hearings have resulted in an easier re-zoning for those wanting to do that type of development since the city has blessed it. The appraisal district has latched onto that and increased the land value (not necessarily the structure), thus resulting in higher taxes. Not a bad deal for someone wanting to sell out but a nightmare in taxation for those older (and young) couples wanting to live out their years or raise their families. Our family house is on 1/3 acre with land value (not the house) at $85,000. So about a quarter million per acre if you have that much property in that area, which some do.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Get ready for increased property taxes everywhere. In my state, if revenue is not high enough to pay for school expenses they can raise the tax rate without a vote of the people. That was the original reason for a property tax in the first place. To pay for public schools. It is easy for the legislature to punt the ball over to the county tax assessors.

Inflation is the most insidious tax of all, and that is what is driving up property taxes. IMHO.

[Mossy]

I'm amazed that people aren't suffering from "tax rage" and shooting up the legislatures or sniping the Aldermen whenever these property tax increases go through.

The tax increase that has me going "HUH?" is sales tax increases. The usual excuse is that inflation forces it. "HUH?"

[Thogey]

Get ready for increased property taxes everywhere. In my state, if revenue is not high enough to pay for school expenses they can raise the tax rate without a vote of the people. That was the original reason for a property tax in the first place. To pay for public schools. It is easy for the legislature to punt the ball over to the county tax assessors.

Inflation is the most insidious tax of all, and that is what is driving up property taxes. IMHO.

It's the same way here. Our valuation dropped and taxes go way up.

It's explained that the valuation determines what your share of the total tax is. But, the taxing entities can raise at will without a vote.

[Lemon Thrower]

an income tax is highly intrusive. i would much prefer an income tax. the only situation where property tax instead of an income tax is better is where you have someone who has owned property that has appreciated substantially and they are not putting the property to economic use comensurate with the current value of the property. there aren't enough of those situations to justify imposing an income tax on everyone else.

[Mossy]

...someone who has owned property that has appreciated substantially and they are not putting the property to economic use comensurate with the current value of the property.

I'm a little confused why I should bust my tail to pay someone else's baby sitter fee. Or is it protection money to keep the juvenile criminals in an institution and not out robbing people?

[Lemon Thrower]

don't know what you are talking about.

everyone has to pay taxes. the only reason why this guy might have a gripe is that his property is now worth more than he paid for it. there aren't too many of those folks around. if your property has appreciated so much that you can't afford the taxes, don't go looking for sympathy from others - just sell it.

[shinnosuke]

I submit for your reading pleasure just the first 5 of the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto. The explanation that follows each comes from:
http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

Pay special attention to point #2. The progressive income tax that we know in the US is particularly insidious. Why? Well, as seen in point #5, we have the Federal Reserve which can inflate the money supply at their discretion. (Wait, why would those mighty capitalists behind all the banks have anything to do with the principles of Communism? Power, brother...it's all about power. After a while one becomes bored with one's wealth. Counting one's money all day is tedious. Better to toy with mankind and rule over them to one's own benefit.) So as consumer prices, and more to the point of this thread, the price of land, are inflated, most people also earn more as wages move higher to keep up with the higher prices. To that you reply, "Gee, that sounds good. I like to earn more." Well, you poor sap, earning more shoves you into a higher tax bracket. You earn more. Now you get to pay more. And that at a higher rate, because we can't have you keeping too much of your money and becoming independent of the oligarchy.

So our Washington politicians can beat their chest and claim America is strong and independent, but really its citizens and its wealth are merely the playthings of the super-wealthy. The good news is, if history is any indication, that tyranny gets flushed every so often. Many of us may live to see that happen. I hope when it does happen that there will be men/women of the same caliber as Washington, Jefferson, Madison et al to guide us again.

Nobody in America really "owns" their own land any more. A concept called allodial ownership was once more common than now. It meant the land was truly owned free and clear of all encumbrances. Those were the days...

So, all ye free North Americans, if you can't own property, are you really anything other than slaves?

[Lemon Thrower]

i'm with you.

when you consider that uncle same spends 3X as much as it collects in tax revenues, and has the ability to do this, it makes you wonder why any taxes are needed at all. and it makes you realize that the power to create money dwarfs Congress' power to spend money.