Tribal Warfare

[shinnosuke]

Just came across this and haven't even finished reading it yet but thought it was worth sharing.

Tribal warfare, coming to America...
http://www.informedchristians.com/ameri ... poster.pdf

[frugi]

quote from the graphic, it pretty much describes my natural feelings in life:

"Panic now; avoid the rush."

[Rosco]

All this seams sure to happen the unknowable is WHEN

Not yet ready to head for the hills

[shinnosuke]

I sure would like to get some more comments on the poster at the link in the original post. Are the ideas presented logical? Likely? Ludicrous?

[johnbrickner]

Shinno:

How did I miss this one? OK, print is to small to read straight up. Have to print it out. Get back to ya on it though. Give me some time for serious thought

[shinnosuke]

Shinno:

How did I miss this one? OK, print is to small to read straight up. Have to print it out. Get back to ya on it though. Give me some time for serious thought

I'll be right here waiting on you.

[frugi]

Shinno:

How did I miss this one? OK, print is to small to read straight up. Have to print it out. Get back to ya on it though. Give me some time for serious thought

on the page is a magnification feature which allows you to blow up the print.

[Mossy]

Shinno:

How did I miss this one? OK, print is to small to read straight up. Have to print it out. Get back to ya on it though. Give me some time for serious thought

on the page is a magnification feature which allows you to blow up the print.

Homeland security is going to want a word with you.

[Mossy]

Shinno:

How did I miss this one? OK, print is to small to read straight up. Have to print it out. Get back to ya on it though. Give me some time for serious thought

Now to figure out where to find a 4'x8' piece of paper. Or a sheet of plywood?

[johnbrickner]

Ok, printing out did not work. TY frugi for the magnification feature tip. From the top: His background helps to understand where he comes from. I'm not sure if growing up in the big city made him paranoid or not, or just really aware of the differences between us. I also think using the civil war as a base for everything else he writes skews/exaggerates the whole thing as he says in first paragraph of The Tinder Foundations means he believes the South is the same today as it was back in the 60's.

His comments on the right under "YOU" are good regardless of how the collapse or decent occurs.

The rest? I see people banding together for survival in regional and smaller areas regardless. Will tribalism exist? Sure, it does today. People like to hang with people that are more like themselves, in thought, deed, culture, and religion than not. We will see more good ol' boys grouping up in the South, Hispanics in the SW, etc. But, the wise and prudent will know that working together for mutual gain, defense, shelter, etc. will win out over tribalism. Tribes tend to have narrow thought or think to much alike.

Guerilla warfare comments are also good if you are not on the winning power side. However, guerilla is a long-term tactic. as he says in "YOU" (to) flee (and survive) is strategic.

Fallout and present consideration are mostly all good again, regardless of how the collapse or decline happens.

If I had to bottom line it, and had to imagine myself in a place of authority in a community post collapse or significantly down the decline slope I would base my decisions of who to let into and not let into the community based on the individuals skills and abilities that can be provided to the community not on their tribal background or religion. I mean, like the guy could worship dung rolling beetles but if he were our only metal smith, he's in.

[Thogey]

Arizona is not a "potential" Hispanic area. I is de-facto Mexico!

But so what? My Mexican buddies got my back.

Mexican culture is what America used to be. Heterosexual, families, work your ass off. fight spit and sweat love Jesus fix your car hang out with your neighbors on Sunday and drink a few beers.

It's the bad element that is tolerated because if you don't you are racist!.

Get used to it folks (in the southwest) we are in a Hispanic region. Love it adapt and don't put up with the gangsters. You kill them if necessary. That's life in the SW.

[johnbrickner]

Arizona is not a "potential" Hispanic area. I is de-facto Mexico!

But so what? My Mexican buddies got my back.

[snipped]
Get used to it folks (in the southwest) we are in a Hispanic region. Love it adapt and don't put up with the gangsters. You kill them if necessary. That's life in the SW.

Just read another book by Heinberg describing the SW as a potential hot spot for a Mexico takeover when the crunch comes. He sees it as a Hispanic vs Whites situation with the Angeleno Americanos siding with Mexico. I see it otherwise.

About two decades ago when I was first starting my career working with high school sports teams I worked at La Habra HS. Very Hispanic area. During one football practice at the other end of the field several "wetbacks" (the coach and the kids used the term) were kicking around a soccer ball. Coach chased them off till practice ended. At the end of practice, three of the players were helping me put away the gear and water buckets when the wetbacks started organizing a soccer game. One of the young men said "Lets hurry up and get this stuff put away before the wetbacks take over" followed by another who said "yea, fricking wetbacks".

Now, I have forgotten exactly what their last names were but I said to them "Guys, your name is Gomez, yours is Sanchez, yours is Ramirez, all Spanish Sir names. Good chance your parents or grand parents swam the Rio. Don't you feel any connection to these guys at all?" I asked. All three look at me like I got three heads and one says, "John, we are Americans! They are the Wetbacks!!!" End of conversation, gear gets put away and we take off.

Now these young men are all grown up adults now. Families of there own, homes, jobs, hard workers all, no doubt in my mind. I knew their parents. They will never put up with the wetbacks making war and taking over their land. I promise you, it will be one hell of a fight and if they defend their land like they played football that year (predicted to come in dead last. Won it all) Mexico will never take over the America that is them.

True story.

[Treetop]

If it came to tribal warfare in this country I dont see it playing out anything like this portrays. First of all if asian communities in cali had support from china they would have more warm bodies from china as well. So all bets are off on that one if they had ties to asia. If they had no ties to asia, then I would expect they would control much smaller areas then presented.

As for the SW, I dont expect that to play out as represented either. The local "hispanic" gangs form battle lines from those born here and those from mexico. I dont expect them to have much support in the form of NEW weapons from mexico if our country fell far enough to resort to tribal war. The reason they come is for work and wealth so there would be little to no reason for them to come.

they also would NOT be allied with the tribes. I know members of several tribes here locally, they do not like people from mexico anymore then they do those of european descent. Keep in mind it was the spanish who originally crushed this area, and though they were white skinned people seem to relate them to the hispanic culture who have darker skin at this point after generations of mixing.

If anything the longtime new mexican "hispanic" culture would side with white skinned people, because neither group is particularly racist here. Whereas the tribes and recent immigrants see race in everything. Such was the case in a recent local issue in regards to a uranium mine. Somehow to the tribes this became a racial issue, and the white and hispanic folks just saw it as a legal one.

Also they dont really have a majority here, as this claims, or not much of one. a large percentage of those who check the hispanic box in this state are as pale as I am. Again if anything most of these would side with their european descended friends, which in fact genetically they are closer to anyway then any of the more recent immigrant populations.

As for the tribes themselves? My wife worked on a reservation as a teacher. She was routinely told of the coming race war. Problem is they have very little and couldnt actually support such a war. Whereas the other groups are much better armed and would fare much better at growing their foods and such.

As for the more recent immigrants, they would be in trouble. They have even less then the tribes from a tactical standpoint, and my guess is most would try to head home.

If for some weird reason the longtime hispanic residents did side with them, I still would expect them to be on the loosing end of the stick. I know many ranchers here, hispanic and otherwise. They are all armed of course but Ive noticed the hispanic ranchers seem to lean more towards hunting rifles and shotguns, whereas Ive met dozens of white folks with AKs and mini 14s and AR15s. It just doesnt appear to be part of their culture.

As for support from mexico, what would be the point? To take over land they could never use in the past? They had a few cities up here in the southwest of what is now the US, but not many and they really only kept them going to keep their "flag" here so others didnt claim the land imo. Look at texas, they couldnt even support a handful of cities as they did in new mexico so they moved in hordes of immigrants worried the US would claim it. which backfired when they tried to force them to become catholic and align in their hearts with mexico. that is how they lost the SW of what is now the US.

So ultimately Id expect the tribes to loose large numbers, and a "hispanic/"white" group to control other areas.

As for the "south" being african american? honestly if it came to a fullscale race war, and people literally fought it as such, Id expect them to go extinct, because they wouldnt have near the resources and are vastly outnumbered. They dont own nearly the weapons, nearly the land, have nearly the experienced farmers etc etc etc. They are concentrated in cities. So if it became a fullscale racewar, Id expect them to become nearly extinct in the americas.

Back to the asian spots on the map. If they had chineese support Id expect they would control everything up to the rockies and for ease of maintaining control stop there. If they have no chineese support, Id expect at best they would control very small sections and likely not that. Because again they are concentrated in cities which simply dont have the ability to sustain such a war without trucks bringin in their food.

Another wild card in the SW is of course FOOD. The tribes pre contact went hungry much of the time. They relied on rather poor cropping systems, and from their collected wild foods most years because of poor yields. the crops they did have rely on very specific land features in most cases that simply cannot support their numbers and never could. Only a handful of them even have the seeds their ancestors once grew adapted to such methods as well. Now in this area everyone relies on wells for the most part. which would be hard to maintain in an off grid situation. In many areas said wells are much to deep to help with a pump for instance, and even where handpumps do work, you need to have had it before the fall.

Whereas I spent a decade studying and I CAN grow food here anywhere. I do not need specific land features that I cannot make myself, I have and continue to create plants adapted to such methods. If I survive into such a world should it happen, my side has an extreme advantage. Especially over time as many things I use that have the largest impact take time to grow in. I dont even need irrigation to grow a widely varied diet. Although it of course helps it isnt mandatory at all. Ive contacted many other groups working in the field, and no ones work comes even close and always relies on irrigation. they think Im nuts for the extra work I put in to set up such conditions and the breeding Im doing to take advantage of them. Im building crops and systems for what I hope will one day be a new wave of homesteaders to the highdeserts cheap land and taxes. this may or may not ever happen of course, but they will be on my homestead regardless.

[68Camaro]

In NM specifically, and especially northern NM, the old hispanic families are literally decendents of the conquistadors and (for generations, including at least up until recently) considered themselves "spanish" and definitely not mexican. Many families retained that "pure" blood and if you mixed you were shunned from the family. I think as long as they continue without mixing that will continue, though given enough time it will eventually fade - but it's been 500 years and hasn't fully faded yet. They did have a bit of an attitude about it, and used to look down on the Mexicans as much as the non-spanish whites used to. My parents and grandparents used to refer to the local cuisine as "spanish" food (not mexican, or even new mexican) because that's what the hispanics themselves used to call in back in the day.

[shinnosuke]

Thanks for all the comments. Treetop, your work in agriculture continues to amaze me.

[Treetop]

i might also add that, wed also have groups that just dont care about race even in the midst of such a war. Id expect such folks to gather for survival, and eventually face confrontations from whatever group had beaten down the "tribe" they had fought who dont want to see mixing. Way to many variables to predict how that could unfold since Id expect such a grouping would have a stronger foothold in some areas compared and weaker in others based on how events shaped up locally as said war developed.

I do hope desperately people never resort to such a war. But honestly I fear we could indeed see some form of it, although I doubt it would be a full blown war strictly along racial lines. There is just to much hatred out there, and to many issues that potentially put our society/culture in a precarious position.

I pray one day humanity matures and lives by the golden rule. it doesnt help that the worlds powerful who own our media seem to want to play people off eachother and sadly it appears rather effective. Also sad that most people might define it differently and relate to it differently, but most of us want the same things. a nice happy life, and family. a safe place to live, a better world for our offspring. Good food and friends. Why must we try to force ourselves onto others? Or covet what they have? It doesnt compute for me. Live and let live.

[johnbrickner]

Whereas I spent a decade studying and I CAN grow food here anywhere . . . I'm building crops and systems for what I hope will one day be a new wave of homesteaders to the highdeserts cheap land and taxes.

Treetop, this ability and vision will make you the most sought after and valuable person in the SW if you live far enough into the decline where food is the primary issue for humanity. On the other hand, have you ever considered taking your knowledge to a local community college and seeing if they will let you teach a course. Who knows it may expand into a degree. Your knowledge needs to be in the minds of the youth. They will be the ones who will carry your vision to where it is needed.

[Mossy]

Treetop, very small correction. Supplies is logistics, and it makes or breaks armies and rebellions.