Oh no!!! I've been scammed into buying fake silver

[JobIII]

Hi all,

A couple weeks ago I was the victim of fraud. It's embarrassing to be taken advantage of like that. And I was already in the process of selling these before I found out they were fake. Thankfully I was able to realize this scam before anyone on RC or BS sent money and all sales were cancelled before payments were sent.

Here is most of the details surrounding that horrible situation and the outcome along with pictures of the counterfeit silver.

Oh no! I've just been scammed into buying fake silver bullion

I am also working on editing a video of the counterfeit silver in hopes that more people will be able to avoid being robbed of their hard earned money like I was. Video will be posted soon!

Basically if you've bought silver bullion in the past couple months here in New England you should have it looked at by a specialist because this con-artist has been selling a lot of fake bullion.

To anyone here on RC that was in line to buy bars from me back in January, I just want to apologize for the inconvenience I may have caused you.

Sincerely,
~JobIII

[SilverDragon72]

Wow! That's quite a story!

This is why we must be more careful when it comes to purchasing silver with our hard earned money. I will be VERY reluctant to do business via CL or Ebay. I just don't trust those sites very much. I'll stick to what sources I know and trust.

Fraud sucks.

[NDFarmer]

I agree WOW!! How lucky you are to get your money back. The worst part of your experience is that no one cares enough to prosecute this guy. He has an attorney on retainer and if someone like you does catch him he just plays dumb and has his attorney give the money back and then goes out the next day and sell the same counterfeit silver to someone else. Imagine how much money this guy is making if he sells a few hundred of these each day.

They really look like beautiful bars. Very well done. It will probably get to the point where you will have to cut into each sliver bar and coin you buy to test it to make sure it is real.

[JobIII]

ND,

My friend's mom lost a wad of cash while living in Australia. The cash ended turning up in full at the police station. The cop said she was lucky. A perp handcuffed to the bench that over heard her issue said, "you're not lucky, you're god d*** f****** lucky".

I know i'm very lucky and will hopefully never allow myself to be scammed like this again. I will consider this a very valuable learning experience.

~JobIII

[Rodebaugh]

Great blog writing Mr JobIII.

I will stow this lesson in ye' ol memory banks as well.

[JobIII]

Okay I'm watching the walking dead so the video is going to have to wait till tomorrow. But if you thought these look real wait till you see the magnet test in action. It'll drop your jaw at how subtle the attraction is.

[Rodebaugh]

What type of Magnet? Silver is Dimagnetic. Did it slide......or stick!

[mbailey1234]

Glad to hear you got your money back. Only thing I may have done different is I would have had a bill made up for about 2 grand for the attorney to pay or I would have pressed charges anyway. That's the least they could have done for all the stress they caused you.

I'm a little surprised the police didn't take it from them but I guess there isn't anything illegal about possession of fake silver? Is there any law that says it has to say COPY or REPLICA on it if it isn't real? If not there should be and then when this crap shows up at least they could get that much off the market. It's probably coming over from China by the container load anyway.

Just an idea buy why doesn't someone put together a "silver authenticity kit" or something. I bet they would sell on here. Magnifying glass, acid, maybe a file? , jewelry scale, how to manual, beaker for measuring density/volume, etc....

[blackrabbit]

Wow, if they won't imprison him that scammer deserves a baseball bat shower!

[Engineer]

A small claims suit would give you the opportunity to make him cough up bank records through the discovery process. If you can link him directly to imported fakes, the DA would have an open and shut case for conspiracy to commit fraud.

Suing him now might be hard since you accepted your money back, but you could probably establish a case by sending a demand letter for your costs and time (make it at least $500) to the attorney.

[68Camaro]

The appearance of the bars, from the photos at a distance, looks excellent. It adds to my concern about trading. While I've bought the bulk of my bullion products directly from a mint or newly minted from a trusted major dealer, I do have some small amounts of 3rd party bullion. I do wonder if I've got some fake mixed into it.

Glad you got you money back! But like you said, there is fake bullion on the loose.

I would like us to compile a list of correct true physical characteristics of the key products of common mints. Engelhard, Sunshine, NWTM, others, plus the major governmental mints. I would like to create a database, for statistical populations of each product (noted by year of production if known), of accurate measurements of dimensions, weights, and most importantly the tolerances on dimensions and weights. You noted that weights were -0.5 to +0.9 g, and that seems like a relatively large variation. I would like to get a population of real measurements and verify that for a given set of correct external dimensions that the weights are actually more like +/- 0.1 g or less, as I believe most are. (This needs to be done by people who have the right equipment and who know how to measure and collect data.)

[knibloe]

Are there are other things that can be done to protect oneself?

Write down the license plate number of the person you are dealing with.
Why not get a receipt? This way you have proof that you bought it. Have their handwritting, their finger prints and their description of what they are selling you.

Any other thoughts?

[barrytrot]

Wow a very interesting story, thanks for that.

So someone has finally taken Craigslist scamming to the career level, wow!

[NHsorter]

Looks like the scumbag is still at it. JobIII, is this the same guy? I have been sitting here for a few minutes now trying to think of what could be done to take this guy down. So far blackrabbit's bat shower tops the list.
http://nh.craigslist.org/cbd/3581790695.html

[NHsorter]

Pretty sure it's that same dude that ripped off this place in the article. Correct me if I am wrong JobIII. At the end of the article it even mentions the briefcase. I am fantasizing about beating the guy down, shooting out his tires and smacking him upside the head with that briefcase. Should I seek counseling?

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/11/28/thief-steals-rare-coins-from-lexington-coin-shop/

[JobIII]

Hi all, Thanks for checking out the post. Please pass this info on to your friends in the coin and bullion world.

Mbailey - there are a couple laws in place regarding bullion. As you could guess I researched the heck out of this topic

15 U.S.C. 8
United States Code, 2009 Edition
Title 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE
CHAPTER 8 - FALSELY STAMPED GOLD OR SILVER OR GOODS MANUFACTURED THEREFROM

Within this document there are laws and punishments for selling & transporting precious metals stamped with inaccurate fineness.

Engineer - I also considered small claims, but the problem would have been that the money and silver would have been held by the courts until a decision was made, and without a receipt it would have been my word against his and his criminal defense attorney's. But getting the DA on this guys ass would be a nice touch.

Barry - Yeah it really sucks to find such creeps on Craigslist. And that site won't help unless a court orders them too. It's a really passive website and that is a perfect spot for scammers and con-artists.

NH - I forwarded you more info about this person. The goal was to educate the public and everyone on RC & BS, not agitate the scammer enoguh to come after me or my family.

~JobIII

[christostock]

Here is my warning to my CL peeps
http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/wan/3589860128.html
I have his picture and license plate number, should I add those to sweeten the pot

[mbailey1234]

I think the Realcent mafia should plan their next meeting and arrange a group buy from this guy. Maybe "take him out"...for dinner or whatever trips your "trigger."

Another approach to prosecuting him may be to contact all of the manufacturers that he is counterfeiting. I bet they would do their best to nail him since he is ruining their reputation along the way. Who would want any of these bars (legit or not) now that you know there are so many good fakes out there. I sure wouldn't risk it.

[JobIII]

Mbailey - I contacted the companies while I was still trying to get my money back. I spoke to the legal department from each company. Believe it or not in each case all they said was to either forward the vendor's contact info so they could request the sales to stop or do it myself. I don't believe this is a new thing for them and apparently they aren't set to prosecute each and every case that's brought to their attention. Very similar to the state and federal departments I also called...

[NDFarmer]

Just an idea buy why doesn't someone put together a "silver authenticity kit" or something. I bet they would sell on here. Magnifying glass, acid, maybe a file? , jewelry scale, how to manual, beaker for measuring density/volume, etc....

As the price of silver goes up this is going happen more. I like the idea of a silver authenticity kit but when you buy those beautiful 1 ounce bars, rounds, and an MS-63 Morgan dollar you really don't want to be cutting into those to make sure they are real. So other than weighing and measuring them what can you do? And just doing that doesn't really prove they are silver on the inside.

[68Camaro]

Actually (for reasons that can be elaborated on separately), the correct density of silver is difficult to reproduce via combinations of other non-magnetic materials that don't cost more than silver itself. So if you can establish the correct physical size and weight and that it is non-magnetic - you will have covered yourself for 99.9% of the cases, including essentially all of the "normal" cheap fakes.

[NHsorter]

Here is my warning to my CL peeps
http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/wan/3589860128.html
I have his picture and license plate number, should I add those to sweeten the pot

Nice CL post!! You should put the pics and plate number on Craigslist too. That would be a hoot!

[NDFarmer]

Actually (for reasons that can be elaborated on separately), the correct density of silver is difficult to reproduce via combinations of other non-magnetic materials that don't cost more than silver itself. So if you can establish the correct physical size and weight and that it is non-magnetic - you will have covered yourself for 99.9% of the cases, including essentially all of the "normal" cheap fakes.

Will this be true when silver gets to $75.00 or $100.00 ?

[68Camaro]

Fakes will improve as price goes up. So will detection methods for the fakes.

I'll see if I make some time to re-run some calculations to see how cost effective the best fake out of base metals could be.

[68Camaro]

Alright... spent a few more moments with a spreadsheet again. Not to alarm people, but you wouldn't want me supporting the counterfeiting business.

This presumes that the item in question is outside of any holder.

Without getting into the details (because this shouldn't be common knowledge for people that can't figure this out for themselves), I can (on paper) create a relatively inexpensive material system that would have the exact density of silver, which means it could be made to have the same volume (dimensions) and mass in the final form, and be non-magnetic. Silverplate it, and it would be difficult for most people to tell. That sucks.

An acoustic ring test would be the next best fall-back. It would be substantially more difficult (if not impossible) to also match elastic modulus and damping in addition to density.

There are other bench-top tests that could be done, or could be created. An electromagnetic inductance test wouldn't be hard to do - that's like what a coin compartor uses. A surface acoustic wave tester could be created. There's an entire business opportunity here for some entepreneur.