Copper metallurgy 101

[Rubbadubba]

Once the melt ban is decriminalized and an abundance of hoarded cents hit the marketplace, is there any real need for the pure copper metal to be seperated from the zinc to be of use and value? According to Wikipedia, the 95/5 Cu/Zn ratio is technically (and actually?) a brass alloy called "gilding metal". Further both copper and zinc are common to several brass classifications as well as bronze alloys in various ratios. Couldn't pennies just be reprocessed and/or blended as is without requiring any seperation or "purification of the elements" to fill certain metal market demands/needs? I haven't seen any threads or comments of this nature and am rather curious.

[barrytrot]

Check out the sale prices for copper rounds and bars and you have your answer.

Copper bars routinely go for 2 times spot value or much more. That will likely go down substantially as the market increases, but definitely the "refined" will bring a substantial profit compared to "cents".

"cents" will go for something less than spot.

Professionals will make a lot of money buying "cents" and melting them to sell for a profit.

[natsb88]

Copper pennies are really brass.

I foresee many of them being traded in their current form, just like 90% silver continues to trade in its original form after nearly 50 years. If scrapped, they will likely be used to produce more common brass alloys simply by adding more zinc. That is much easier and more economical than refining them to .999, which cannot be done simply by melting, but must be done electro-chemically.

[68Camaro]

Agree with Nate that I believe the best of the cents will continue to have utility as coin. Though the 95/5 alloy is a useful alloy in its own right, and/or could be combined (as said above) with other materials to yield different alloys. You can get any copper/zinc alloy ratio you want below 95% Cu if you throw in some of the zinc pennies to mix in with them.

[penny pretty]

if all the coppers are melted will the nice ones left have numi value? you bet they will!

[atticus]

if all the coppers are melted will the nice ones left have numi value? you bet they will!

by this do you mean it might be worth it to save out the better quality (cleaner etc) cents from the pile of bullion quality? i hadn't really thought of this, but should i actually be thinking about saving out, say, even the better grade 1974 (4.2 billion produced) coins?

interesting.

atticus

[DebtFreeMe]

I know I keep the best quality ones that I find and set them aside. I don't personally collect coins, except for their metal value (copper, silver, gold), but I would rather sell some of the very best cents for their coin collecting value eventually rather then just throw them into a smelter some day.

[atticus]

the general group think around here seems to be that if/when the ban is lifted, coins will still be bought/sold in there original form as bullion rather than melted (i could easily be wrong on this). if so, then there will still be plenty of higher grade coinage around, right?

however, i do remember reading an article somewhere on a numi blog that quoted a lot of coin dealers as saying that a lot of high grade (numi-wise) silver dimes and quarters were lost to the smelter once that ban was lifted. is that true?

personally, i would trust history over theory, but then again, the logic side of my brain would argue that the experience with silver coinage would somehow prevent it from happening again with CU cents.

for me, a small-scale hand sorter, it's not that big of a deal to create a separate pile of higher grade coins, but that still takes a little extra time. it's hard to see whether that is worth it, but then again, i do sort out wheats, canadians, and 59's, as well as playing "Whitman Bingo" with my 10 year old boy, so it's not that hard to do it "just in case" i guess.

[everything]

According to my garage sale brass purchases, as well as looking on ebay for brass pieces, it seems stagnant, or not going up until we go to war? Nobody seems to want brass, correct me if I'm wrong. Still, I have not checked prices since summer. Basically I just buy them at dirt prices, seems unpopular.

[penny pretty]

in NY we had someone steal the brass railings in front of city hall! google metal theft, happening all over the world. instead of stealing copper wire from a transformer with the threat of electrocution or arrest, I will legally "steal" copper from circulation in the form of pennies!(ok, maybe the odd plaque or statue. but you didnt hear it from me)

[snappy]

in NY we had someone steal the brass railings in front of city hall! google metal theft, happening all over the world. instead of stealing copper wire from a transformer with the threat of electrocution or arrest, I will legally "steal" copper from circulation in the form of pennies!(ok, maybe the odd plaque or statue. but you didnt hear it from me)

for some reason that last part hit me wrong. It made me upset someone even kid around about that kind of theft. I am a vet and a few years ago I read that someone took the brass name plates off vet's graves, It angered me. even hinting that you might do it...... let me just say If I saw someone doing it they would not leave undamaged.

[Rob72830]

for me, a small-scale hand sorter, it's not that big of a deal to create a separate pile of higher grade coins, but that still takes a little extra time. it's hard to see whether that is worth it, but then again, i do sort out wheats, canadians, and 59's, as well as playing "Whitman Bingo" with my 10 year old boy, so it's not that hard to do it "just in case" i guess.

I am doing that too. I pick up a couple of boxes to handsort and while sorting if I come across any nice coins I put them aside for my 7 year old grandson. I am getting him a penny album to try and get him interested in coin collecting. I had never heard it called Whitman Bingo but I like it. One thing about it. When you fill your card you win. Unlike the real bingo that I have never won at. And don't play anymore.

[mnymgr1]

I will respectfully disagree with Nate.
I think when the ban is lifted that copper cents will be refined to pure copper form.
If the discount is great enough to pure refined ingots, someone somewhere will start doing that.
And after a while, their discount need will decrease as their previous profitability will have paid off their machinery costs. So as the copper cents rise in price in relation to spot silver, these refiners will continue
buying.

These middle market types of companies are what I specialize in researching and investing in, so I do think a company will be formed around this type of activity. I would personally love to start something like this
up but have no clue the costs involved. I think a first generation refiner for these doesn't have to be very large either, all depends on economies of scale.

Like several of you have said in the past, I do also agree that some of these copper cents will be melted down (somehow) and put into 95% copper bars/rounds. The problem I see with that is the fact that in resale, you are basing your purchase simply on trust unless you have sophisticated equipment able to discern purity of the metal. If US silver coinage were a private mintage, I betcha the market pricing for that would be less than what it is today.

Lastly, I wish refiners would melt down all the silver coinage too. I know most look at it as the best type of fractional silver available. I'd rather have 1/10oz-1/2oz .999.

[68Camaro]

With regard to the last comment of mnymgr1, folks, please remember that circulating coin is not pure bullion (Canadian and other .999 nickel being the exception that proves the rule) for a VERY GOOD reason - pure PMs are SOFT - they don't wear well. They are alloyed to alloy them to BE circulated, and handled. Thus circulating coin is normally PM in the 90% to 92.5% range of pure.