Case study: When to invest in a Ryedale?

[Romalae]

So I'm struggling with some long term justifications and rationalizations, mostly related to the purchasing of a Ryedale sorter and increasing the scale of my penny hobby in general.

Here's my plight. I've mentioned previously that I am 16 years of age and a student with no steady source of income at present. I'm living at home for the next two years until I finish high school. Right now, I'm a keen handsorter and I've probably amassed a grand total of around $1,000 face value of copper pennies through my coin sorting tenure (approx. 3 years). Lately, as I strive to educate myself about economics and finance, I yearn to sort on a grander scale to satisfy my urge for monetary edification and desire for a sizeable stash of cheap copper as an investment. Naturally, the Ryedale route manifests itself to me, but I cannot decide if I'm better off getting one or not.

First of all, as I mentioned, I am soon to be extricating myself from my parents' residence and implanting myself within the hustle and bustle of university life. Because I will have no steady place of residence and I'll be busy with school, social life, and the other demands of mental maturation and circumstantial independence, is it really economical to be accreting a large(r) copper penny stash? I'm aware that most of you all are adults who've established yourselves in your lives already and aren't poised to be transitioning or moving around, so you may not share my plight. So I could just wait until I finish university and begin a career, to expand my sorting activities, but by then copper pennies might be a rarity and pennies in general might even be out of circulation long before then anyway. Time is money. The time to do the penny sorting is right now, because the opportunity will dissipate in the next five to ten years as the coin is either phased out due to administrative costs in production or when the effects of all of y'all's mass-sorting gradually manifest themselves and diminish the opportunities for the little man like me.

Second, because I have unstable income sources and a lack of free time, I don't necessarily find myself having the time to operate a Ryedale machine, much less handsort on a more frequent basis than the occasional two boxes or so a week. I doubt my machine would pay for itself with the time and quantity I'd invest into it. Not to mention the noise factor for my household, frustration of dealing with the zincies, and missing out on the Wheaties or whatever other goodies might be lurking in circulation that I'd otherwise find through handsorting.

I just feel like if I wait too long, I might miss this fantastic opportunity to get copper bullion for less than half its actual value. But I also feel like if I act too soon and without enough forethought, it might serve to be a burden on me as I progress through life. I'm not sure what to do and I'd like to solicit some input from the community. Thanks.

[algae21]

IMHO.

You seem pretty intelligent. Find a way and I'm sure you'll appreciate the rewards later on. I always collected wheaties and silver as a kid, even considering myself a novice coin collector. When I hit my late teens, life started presenting more pressing and interesting pursuits. Old coins weren't a priority anymore. That said, I can still remember when wheaties were pretty abundant, for the taking, and silver coins could be found in nearly any roll of dimes and quarters you happened to pick up at the bank. Gold was roughly 400 an ounce.

Those days, of course, are long gone. If I had taken it more seriously over the years, I can't even imagine the hoard I would have had by now. Now I'm trying to catch up, so I'm sorting pennies and trying to pick up whatever silver I can at prices I would have never imagined back in the 1980's. I don't really "need" to, but frankly I live in a country and see an economy that just scares the living hell out of me.

So, for whatever it's worth, figure out where you can make the sacrifices in time and money and keep at it. Of course, pennies aren't easily transportable. But it should be an easy step to barter up into the PM's.

[hags]

implanting myself within the hustle and bustle of university life

I have unstable income sources

a lack of free time

Three good reasons to not buy a Ryedale....

I might miss this fantastic opportunity to get copper bullion for less than half its actual value

You have already grasped the opportunity with the 1/3 ton you sorted....if it was me I'd wait and see what challenges (time & $) college life brings....

just my 2 Cu cents......hags

[barrytrot]

If your reason for sorting is to make money NOW then you are better off with almost any job (until you REALLY ramp up).

Learn about computer programming/design/analysis. That will be a better path to now-money than sorting copper cents even at the 1-Ryedale level. Now at the 3-Ryedale scaled up level you can start earning double digits per hour, but until then you really are better off with ANY job.

In today's market knowledge is king so if you learn PHP you can probably get a job paying the equivilent of 25k/year (12.50 per hour) with minimal effort and 40k/year or more with a lot of effort (and if you are truly "good").

[fasteddy]

Here it is..At my best I could handsort a box in an hour, now I have sporadic pain in my thumbs from the handsorting. With a Ryedale Apprentice, I can do a box in nearly the time a commercial on TV runs. With the minimal time you will have while in school the automatic machinery is the way to go. You may lose some coin that you would find handsorting but the amount you will build in copper coin holdings will increase much faster than handsorting. You have the funds right now to purchase and realize the benefit of copper coin. Whichever way you decide...it is a win win...the only loss is if you don't sort at all.

[barrytrot]

Good point by fasteddy: Unlike most "real jobs" you can't do them for 3 minutes during a commercial break. That's a very good point

[scyther]

I'm stating the obvious of course, but don't buy a Ryedale unless you're certain you'll continue to have a good supply in the future. If your banks cut you off, or the copper dries up... you've wasted a lot of money.

[Romalae]

I'm glad the answers to my dilemma aren't exactly a no-brainer or one side only. I enjoyed reading the varied responses; it enables me to weigh my options in relation to time, money, portability, and other factors.

IMHO.

You seem pretty intelligent. Find a way and I'm sure you'll appreciate the rewards later on. I always collected wheaties and silver as a kid, even considering myself a novice coin collector. When I hit my late teens, life started presenting more pressing and interesting pursuits. Old coins weren't a priority anymore. That said, I can still remember when wheaties were pretty abundant, for the taking, and silver coins could be found in nearly any roll of dimes and quarters you happened to pick up at the bank. Gold was roughly 400 an ounce.

Those days, of course, are long gone. If I had taken it more seriously over the years, I can't even imagine the hoard I would have had by now. Now I'm trying to catch up, so I'm sorting pennies and trying to pick up whatever silver I can at prices I would have never imagined back in the 1980's. I don't really "need" to, but frankly I live in a country and see an economy that just scares the living hell out of me.

So, for whatever it's worth, figure out where you can make the sacrifices in time and money and keep at it. Of course, pennies aren't easily transportable. But it should be an easy step to barter up into the PM's.

Thanks. I understand exactly what you're saying - I feel like if I don't act now, I'll just regret not having built up a larger hoard when I'm older, just like you in the 1980's. I'm going to take your advice and find a way to keep the sorting going, maybe do a bit of selling in a few months/years to decrease the size of my hoard and use the money to buy more pennies.

If your reason for sorting is to make money NOW then you are better off with almost any job (until you REALLY ramp up).

Learn about computer programming/design/analysis. That will be a better path to now-money than sorting copper cents even at the 1-Ryedale level. Now at the 3-Ryedale scaled up level you can start earning double digits per hour, but until then you really are better off with ANY job.

In today's market knowledge is king so if you learn PHP you can probably get a job paying the equivilent of 25k/year (12.50 per hour) with minimal effort and 40k/year or more with a lot of effort (and if you are truly "good").

My reason for sorting is not only to make money now, but also as a hobby. It's quite an enjoyable activity to perform and it makes you feel accomplished and proud when you get to relish in your copper hoard and brag about your buckets and buckets of pennies. Unfortunately, the STEM majors (science, technology, engineering, math) do not interest me in the slightest, and I know that'll come back to bite me when I'm out of college and trying to find a job. But I'm just more fascinated with liberal arts, humanities, and economics.

Here it is..At my best I could handsort a box in an hour, now I have sporadic pain in my thumbs from the handsorting. With a Ryedale Apprentice, I can do a box in nearly the time a commercial on TV runs. With the minimal time you will have while in school the automatic machinery is the way to go. You may lose some coin that you would find handsorting but the amount you will build in copper coin holdings will increase much faster than handsorting. You have the funds right now to purchase and realize the benefit of copper coin. Whichever way you decide...it is a win win...the only loss is if you don't sort at all.

This seems like a pretty convincing testimony in favor of the Ryedale. Although it does sound great that sorting can happen so fast, you must take into account acquiring all those pennies, dumping the mass quantities of zincies, and the storage factor. At my current rate, it's hard enough getting pennies out of banks sometimes (because they really don't have to do it otherwise and it's such a hassle for them) and also hard enough dumping the zincies that I do already possess. Not only that, but if I amass a great deal more of copper, I don't know where and how I'd store it all. My parents are perfectly okay with me sorting, but I feel like we'd slowly start to run out of living space if I cluttered up more square footage with my billowing buckets of brass & bronze bullion.

I'm stating the obvious of course, but don't buy a Ryedale unless you're certain you'll continue to have a good supply in the future. If your banks cut you off, or the copper dries up... you've wasted a lot of money.

Right, these scenarios are precisely what I'm concerned about if I were to purchase a Ryedale among others.

Another question I might place on the table: If I were to cease my sorting ventures until my college tenure concluded and resumed sometime after, would I be too late based on your predictions about the fate of the penny or the fate of copper penny circulation?

[fasteddy]

be too late based on your predictions about the fate of the penny or the fate of copper penny circulation?

IMO I don't think so...billions of copper pennies have been produced...my percentage is still the same after four years of sorting and that is with billions more produced and in circulation. If space is an issue turn your copper discs into gold or silver discs. Many here on RC do that.

[shinnosuke]

You always have the option of purchasing a used Ryedale either here or on eBay. You could sell that same piece of equipment here should a change in your life justify doing so. You seem to be inordinately concerned about storage space. Unless you live with your family in an apartment, there are plenty of places and a variety of storage containers for keeping your coppers. Boxes under the beds come to mind. All the beds. Speaking of things under the bed, and only slightly tangentially, how is your family set for long-term food storage? You're going to need that too someday soon. Finally, if the size of your copper stack simply becomes unbearable, you can trade it here for silver and enjoy what I suspect will be even greater returns. As you may recall, I live in San Antonio. I wouldn't mind helping you with a transaction like that. Face-to-face deal in. say, San Marcos.

[scyther]

be too late based on your predictions about the fate of the penny or the fate of copper penny circulation?

IMO I don't think so...billions of copper pennies have been produced...my percentage is still the same after four years of sorting and that is with billions more produced and in circulation. If space is an issue turn your copper discs into gold or silver discs. Many here on RC do that.

On the other hand, billions of wheat pennies were also made, and they're like 0.4% now. I think as long as they continue to make billions of new zincs, the supply will eventually diminish.

[NHsorter]

If you get a good deal on a used Ryedale here, you will be risking very little. You would be able to recover most/all of your investment if you decided to sell. You could even sell a handfulls of CTU's to pay for the unit. Then you really have 0 risk, a little time invested in the machine. If that sounds like something you want to do, I would take up shinnosuke on his offer to buy some CTU's face to face. He is a good guy and it is great to be able to save shipping costs and the hassle of packaging.

[slickeast]

If you can find a used Ryedale you should buy one. They hold there value pretty good and you can recoup most, if not all, of your cost when you sell. Getting enough pennies to keep it running might be a problem. Then you have to find somewhere to dump the zincs.

I buy loose and dump loose. That is why I can justify running 4 Ryedales at a time.

[My2Cents]

I can see your concerns, and while I recommend that anyone sort cents for their copper value, your situation is a tad different.
Getting a Ryedale isn't much of a concern, as you could sell some CTUs to fund the new machine and rapidly replace it. Since you have $1,000 fv, I figure 3 CTUs would cover the initial cost.
Your main problem isn't the storage, and to some degree, isn't even the availability of copper. It boils down to not having a steady source of income that's the main deterrent. That Ryedale will cull through those cents at a rate that will actually cost you to use. Sort $200 and you 'spent' $40 to salt away (considering a 20% copper rate), so without an income to replace that, well, it's kinda costing you to sort.
Now, if you have full intentions of securing a job and have reasonable expectations of sorting/keeping $200 every month in your stash, then I say to go ahead and buy your machine. But once you start using a Ryedale, I doubt you'll ever go back to hand sorting.

[shinnosuke]

Romalae, I proffer one more piece of advice that may border on being impertinent. I beg, in advance, your indulgence, kind sir. Do you realize that what you're doing is more than just a good idea from a financial standpoint? Fiat currencies, like the one currently being pumped out by the Federal Reserve, always end in failure. Always. So here's the advice: Get your parents involved. This isn't a matter of what can Junior do with his limited allowance for faithfully completing his weekly chores. You can save your family financially if they will just take the red pill with you and contribute to the effort.

The offer still stands to buy some of your copper-filled buckets so you can buy a Ryedale, used or otherwise.

[Romalae]

be too late based on your predictions about the fate of the penny or the fate of copper penny circulation?

IMO I don't think so...billions of copper pennies have been produced...my percentage is still the same after four years of sorting and that is with billions more produced and in circulation. If space is an issue turn your copper discs into gold or silver discs. Many here on RC do that.

Can't afford gold, but I've got a good amount of silver too, as it is.

You always have the option of purchasing a used Ryedale either here or on eBay. You could sell that same piece of equipment here should a change in your life justify doing so. You seem to be inordinately concerned about storage space. Unless you live with your family in an apartment, there are plenty of places and a variety of storage containers for keeping your coppers. Boxes under the beds come to mind. All the beds. Speaking of things under the bed, and only slightly tangentially, how is your family set for long-term food storage? You're going to need that too someday soon. Finally, if the size of your copper stack simply becomes unbearable, you can trade it here for silver and enjoy what I suspect will be even greater returns. As you may recall, I live in San Antonio. I wouldn't mind helping you with a transaction like that. Face-to-face deal in. say, San Marcos.

I live in a house, so it's not really an issue, per se, but it does take up space that could otherwise be used for other items and it also is an imposition in case of furniture rearrangement or house moving. That's what I meant when I was talking about storage space (perhaps I should have specified). We're pretty set for long-term supplies, that shouldn't be a worry. As for your transaction idea, that's a very difficult offer to pass up, but it may have to wait for a little while until I transition into a more independent life. I might be getting a car next year so I'll stay in touch with you about whether or not I'll be able to comply. Hopefully so; I really appreciate the offer.

On the other hand, billions of wheat pennies were also made, and they're like 0.4% now. I think as long as they continue to make billions of new zincs, the supply will eventually diminish.

This seems logical. The Mint is also researching new alloys for coin manufacturing, so when the day comes that they make the change, Gresham's law will kick in to a greater degree and drive out all the old, good money. As I always say, the time is now.

I can see your concerns, and while I recommend that anyone sort cents for their copper value, your situation is a tad different.
Getting a Ryedale isn't much of a concern, as you could sell some CTUs to fund the new machine and rapidly replace it. Since you have $1,000 fv, I figure 3 CTUs would cover the initial cost.
Your main problem isn't the storage, and to some degree, isn't even the availability of copper. It boils down to not having a steady source of income that's the main deterrent. That Ryedale will cull through those cents at a rate that will actually cost you to use. Sort $200 and you 'spent' $40 to salt away (considering a 20% copper rate), so without an income to replace that, well, it's kinda costing you to sort.
Now, if you have full intentions of securing a job and have reasonable expectations of sorting/keeping $200 every month in your stash, then I say to go ahead and buy your machine. But once you start using a Ryedale, I doubt you'll ever go back to hand sorting.

That's a good point; my copper hoarding definitely eats into the limited funds I do possess. I've definitely noticed from the 3 years of penny sorting that the vast majority of the money I have made is almost entirely stored up in copper. The band with whom I played gigs broke up recently, so now I don't really have any source of income at all. I don't plan to seek potential job opportunities until the upcoming summer, so I'm not sure if I can justify the Ryedale.

Romalae, I proffer one more piece of advice that may border on being impertinent. I beg, in advance, your indulgence, kind sir. Do you realize that what you're doing is more than just a good idea from a financial standpoint? Fiat currencies, like the one currently being pumped out by the Federal Reserve, always end in failure. Always. So here's the advice: Get your parents involved. This isn't a matter of what can Junior do with his limited allowance for faithfully completing his weekly chores. You can save your family financially if they will just take the red pill with you and contribute to the effort.

The offer still stands to buy some of your copper-filled buckets so you can buy a Ryedale, used or otherwise.

A valid point indeed. I do consider myself to be conscious of the unofficial insurance policy I'm acquiring and I would say my parents are as well. The parents aren't as involved in the copper penny aspect as I am, but it is not to say that they don't recognize the opportunity and support it with funds of their own occasionally. I am grateful for that. We're on top of the ball compared to the masses of uninformed people.

Your generous offer will not go disregarded; rather postponed.

[frugalcanuck]

With the your short term future, I am assuming you will be doing a fair bit of moving. I would wait on the rydale for copper unless you have a semi permanent spot for your stash.. I have moved my stash once and it wasnt fun... I know I will be moving it again within a few years and Im not looking forward to it. However, there is a dime wheel available and that will fix two issues. A low income will be fixed by returning nearly every dime back to the bank. Storage space will be a non issue.
I hope these thoughts either help or make things more complicated.

Good Luck

[mtalbot_ca]

Every University has an investment club. Try to get them interested in physical copper or silver.... Participate in the investment club and bring your knowledgre to bear with an added benefit: leverage.....

Cheers,