Copper is better than silver!

[gojomoso]

Guys... there is way too much hating in this thread. I think we need to hug this one out.

I don't think any punches have been thrown or anyone left the room crying....yet.

you should talk, look at the poor kitty ----->

[Common Cents]

Silver is one of the most Volatile metals. if the FED raises interest rates and tightens the money supply,
silver would drop to $25 an ounce in a few weeks.

You could make more with silver, but you could also lose more. Silver looks good right now because it’s gone straight up.

Copper pennies not only do you have a solid bottom of 1 cent each, you are protected if we have a recovery, your are protected if we have inflation, protected if we have deflation.

1. Recovery happens, increases demand for copper, copper pennies go up.
2. Inflation happens, metals go up, copper pennies go up.
3. Deflation happens, money has increased buying power, pennies are money. So the money you have in pennies give you increased buying power.
4. Non of the above happens, you still have a penny!

I can name several ways you can lose BIG money on silver, especially with it at $50 an ounce right now. Only thing you can loose on copper pennies is opportunity cost, and time sorting.
.

Good points.

Bottom line is that there is almost no downside to hoarding pennies, unless one has an immediate need for the money tied up in pennies. If you can afford to sit on your stash for a few years, you'll be well rewarded for your patience.

It's a no-brainer to me. To double your money in silver from here, you have to wait until we get to $100. To double your money in CU pennies, all you need to do is grasp it in your hand.

[Lemon Thrower]

Copper pennies not only do you have a solid bottom of 1 cent each.

well by your logic silver dimes are 10 times better than copper pennies. I won't embarass you by mentioning quarters, halves, or dollars.

i will admit there is a margin of safety in copper pennies, but only if you ascribe a zero cost to your time. the original post suggested putting $15,000 into copper pennies, and to do that you pretty much have to buy from someone at 60% above face, which eliminates your margin of safety. so what looks like a margin of safety relies on a false assumption. its an illusion.

[Lemon Thrower]

Silver is one of the most Volatile metals. if the FED raises interest rates and tightens the money supply,
silver would drop to $25 an ounce in a few weeks.

You could make more with silver, but you could also lose more. Silver looks good right now because it’s gone straight up.

Copper pennies not only do you have a solid bottom of 1 cent each, you are protected if we have a recovery, your are protected if we have inflation, protected if we have deflation.

1. Recovery happens, increases demand for copper, copper pennies go up.
2. Inflation happens, metals go up, copper pennies go up.
3. Deflation happens, money has increased buying power, pennies are money. So the money you have in pennies give you increased buying power.
4. Non of the above happens, you still have a penny!

I can name several ways you can lose BIG money on silver, especially with it at $50 an ounce right now. Only thing you can loose on copper pennies is opportunity cost, and time sorting.
.

Good points.

Bottom line is that there is almost no downside to hoarding pennies, unless one has an immediate need for the money tied up in pennies. If you can afford to sit on your stash for a few years, you'll be well rewarded for your patience.

wouldn't your arguments apply equally to say lumber, or water?

Not of these "good points" demonstrates the superiority of copper over silver, just reasons why copper is desirable.

[Stuff Giant]

I dont post much but I read almost everything. I have to say that even though this post was a little aggressive at times, it really makes you think.

Dad always told me to think less about who is right and to focus on what is right. Both sides of this argument have been strongly presented. I think the key factor here is what are your goals and risk tolerance. I have both silver and copper for different reasons/goals. This thread helped to reinforce my thoughts on both metals. Thanks to all.

P.S. I did sell a little silver this week and I did buy/sort a little copper this week. Just seemed to fit my plan under the current circumstances.

[Corsair]

LT-

If you pick up your copper pennies for face value, you will never lose your initial investment. Ever. If you pick up a silver dime for 33x face value, silver would only have to go down to it's "amazing highs" of a few months back for you to lose half your investment. That will never happen with a copper cent.

The lifting of a melt ban would instantly see people realizing twice their initial investment, if not more. If you got in silver now, the white metal would need to go to nearly $100/oz before those same profits could be realized.

[highroller4321]

I agree with everything in concept the OP stated except one tinsy little fact he omitted.... The one cent US coin in NOT copper bullion. It is brass. It's the same brass they use on full metal jackets on bullets and is called "gilding metal". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding_metal

Just don't become your own sucker.

Bullion is not defined as .999 purity. Copper pennies are a form of copper bullion just like 90% is a form of silver bullion.




Why is the coinflation target price false? It is false only if you are thinking that you can get that number from the smelter. On a retail market, with the melt ban being off they will most likely sell for melt or a small premium. Coinflation melt value on 90% right now is 35.54x face. Apmex sell price right now is 35.52x face. The price will depend on your outlet to get rid of them. A scrap yard is going to most likely pay you close to #2 scrap. A foundry is going to pay you based on their need for that certian composition mix. A investor is going to pay you for the value of the metal.

[/quote] Coinflation's "melt value" numbers are if you could separate the pure metals out of the alloy and sell them individually, IMHO. You cannot do that without first smelting, or electroplating, the copper from the zinc. That incures costs. Those costs must be deducted from the "melt value" to obtain the true value of the metal content of the coins.

Investors will pay you for the percieved value of the metals. That is the "hype" I am talking about. If an investor feels pennies will one day soon sell for 5x face, why not pay 2x face now? As more people try to buy at 2x face... someone will bid it up to 3x face. Then 4x face, and so on.

I am just sitting here having a little fun. What the hell? I am not trying to offend anyone. Everyone has their own way of looking at things and I am just typing out mine. Everyone buys/ invests at their own comfort level of risk vs. reward.

I have used Coinflation's numbers to buy silver like crazy when spot was below $18. I would show Coinflation's spread sheet to sellers & outbid everyone else. My percieved value of the silver coins was over $30, so buying "melt value" @ $18.00 was a steal to me. Sheikh's #1 wife would roll her eyes and sigh deeply, thinking I was being a fool. Now, with the price way, way up from what I bought at.... she smiles a lot. [/quote]


I don't see where you are going with this. In order for something to have value it does NOT have to be in its raw form. 90% retails very close to the coinflation price. Why? Because thats actually how much silver is in the coin! The same is true for copper pennies. The only difference is that there is a current melt ban so you can't realize the actual price point of the true value of the coin. Once the ban goes off you are going to see the numbers very close to coinflation prices and maybe even at a premium!


There is ZERO hype in what I am talking about. I used the 1.5x face in my example. That coin that you paid 1.5x for has a value of at least 2.5x (2.7x coinflation). You could go to the scrapyard and be able to get those prices. The only problem is that the melt ban limits you from realizing that price point.

[highroller4321]

Copper pennies not only do you have a solid bottom of 1 cent each.

well by your logic silver dimes are 10 times better than copper pennies. I won't embarass you by mentioning quarters, halves, or dollars.

i will admit there is a margin of safety in copper pennies, but only if you ascribe a zero cost to your time. the original post suggested putting $15,000 into copper pennies, and to do that you pretty much have to buy from someone at 60% above face, which eliminates your margin of safety. so what looks like a margin of safety relies on a false assumption. its an illusion.

Not at all! If you buy 1 copper penny for 1.5x face you can only lose 0.5 cents! If you buy a silver dime for spot for $3.51 you can lose up to $3.41!

Will silver ever drop that far? I highly doubt it but the principal behind the statement is what we are looking at.

[Lemon Thrower]

LT- If you pick up your copper pennies for face value, you will never lose your initial investment. Ever.

please let me know where I can pick up $15,000 of copper pennies for face value. Every I go they are mixed with zincs.

[VWBEAMER]

Copper cents going to moon!! Only one thing needs to happen, and that is them to be scarce in circulation.

Why is a wheat penny worth 4 cents? they are not rare, they minted Billions of them.
They are however rare in circulation, so they have a value of 4 cents. You can't melt them, yet they are worth 4 times face value. the copper will be the same as soon as most are pulled from circulation.

The more you sort, the sooner your investment will pay off. Sort more, buy more, worry less!!

[Lemon Thrower]

Copper pennies not only do you have a solid bottom of 1 cent each.

well by your logic silver dimes are 10 times better than copper pennies. I won't embarass you by mentioning quarters, halves, or dollars.

i will admit there is a margin of safety in copper pennies, but only if you ascribe a zero cost to your time. the original post suggested putting $15,000 into copper pennies, and to do that you pretty much have to buy from someone at 60% above face, which eliminates your margin of safety. so what looks like a margin of safety relies on a false assumption. its an illusion.

Not at all! If you buy 1 copper penny for 1.5x face you can only lose 0.5 cents! If you buy a silver dime for spot for $3.51 you can lose up to $3.41!

Will silver ever drop that far? I highly doubt it but the principal behind the statement is what we are looking at.

HighRoller, thanks for your response.

this thread is supposed to explain why copper is better than silver. I will concede copper is safer than silver but for me that does not make it better than silver.

copper is different from silver. its less shiny. for me that does not make it better.

copper is cheaper. for me that does not make it better - just means it takes up more space.

most people will judge what makes it better by how much it is expected to go up. there is a compelling argument that silver and gold are fundamentally different than copper in that they have substantial investment demand. investment demand is beginning to revert from the FIRE economy to gold and silver, but not copper. that argument has persuaded me.

during the 70's, silver went up 30X, gold about 25X. in comparison, copper roughly doubled from 50 cents to a buck.

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/copper/240798.pdf

if you want to say copper is a good thing to buy because it low risk or because appreciation is more likely, i would agree. but i would not agree that the profit potential is larger than silver or gold.

The OP says its better than silver. As a holder of silver, i am interested in anyone who can provide an argument why I should sell silver and buy copper. but really, this requires some agreement as to what makes one thing better than another. if we define better as safer, then i agree. I define better as a bigger profit potential, so i dont' agree.

it takes courage to be different from the crowd. in the short time that this forum has been around, i have seen silver go from less than 10X face to now 35X. Is it risky to buy at 35X? I dont think so, although you righly point out it can fall 34X which is more than say .5X for copper. But copper cents are still selling for about what they were selling for 3 years ago. Bernanke has flooded the world with trillions and copper cents have barely budged. If copper is better than silver, tell me what the catalyst will be to get the price of copper cents rising faster than the price of silver?

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

LT- If you pick up your copper pennies for face value, you will never lose your initial investment. Ever.

please let me know where I can pick up $15,000 of copper pennies for face value. Every I go they are mixed with zincs.

LT, you rock!

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

)

I don't see where you are going with this. In order for something to have value it does NOT have to be in its raw form. 90% retails very close to the coinflation price. Why? Because thats actually how much silver is in the coin! The same is true for copper pennies. The only difference is that there is a current melt ban so you can't realize the actual price point of the true value of the coin. Once the ban goes off you are going to see the numbers very close to coinflation prices and maybe even at a premium!


There is ZERO hype in what I am talking about. I used the 1.5x face in my example. That coin that you paid 1.5x for has a value of at least 2.5x (2.7x coinflation). You could go to the scrapyard and be able to get those prices. The only problem is that the melt ban limits you from realizing that price point.

Never mind. It doesn't matter. Enjoy what you are doing.

I was not saying YOU were hyping people, but I do feel there is a little "group think" hype in the whole Copper Penny Bullion Investing train of thought. To me, they are not copper bullion at all, just little round bits of brass.

Still a good investment IF you buy right, hold long enough, and sell to someone who wants them more than you do. Just my opinion. My expectations on the return of investment on pennies is just lower than everyone else here.

[highroller4321]

Basically it boils down to a persons opinion. I believe starting today, or when I made this thread, buying copper pennies at a 50%+ discount calcuated with the increase in copper prices is going to outperform silver in a 5yr period. Silver needs an instant 50% plus increase to even match copper pennies value today. Silver went up 28% last month but yet it still needs to go up another 50%+ to match the value. To me the numbers speak for themselves....

[VWBEAMER]

silver is down to 43 ounce, when this thread started it was at 48 or so.

BTW, I'm heavy into silver and believe it will come back, but it points to how safe penny investments are.

[VWBEAMER]

If you bought 50 bucks worth of silver when this thread started, you lost 10 bucks. If bought 50 bucks of copper pennies, you still have 50 bucks worth of copper pennies.

[tinhorn]

If you bought 50 bucks worth of silver when this thread started, you lost 10 bucks. If bought 50 bucks of copper pennies, you still have 50 bucks worth of copper pennies.

Well, I bought 50 bucks worth of pennies when this thread started, but then I decided to sell the copper ones.


So then I took the zincs back to the bank where they gave me another box of pennies and 10 bucks in loose rolls. Let's see...48 plus 35, less 5 for shipping, equals 78 dollars. Even more than 50 bucks.