Question about buying copper bars off ebay

[rulesforrebels]

I'm keeping pre 82 pennies but also sorta interested in copper bars.

I know there's costs associated with refining metals and making bars and coins but seems everything I see is almost $11 a pound when do the math of price vs how many pounds your getting. Obviously I expect to pay over spot but that seems crazy.

I've seen some youtube vids where guys do reviws of stuf they bought and basically say they are okay with paying those crazy prices b/c they are in it for the "longterm". Even if you are in it for the long term prices would have to double just for you to break even.

The cheapest I think I've seen on ebay have been five pound bars going for a little over $8 per pound but thats still almost double spot.

Wondering if thats a typical markup or if thats too hgih and I should keep looking. Also, is it better to buy fewer large bars like 25,50,100 pound bars or a lot of small bars like one and five pound bars?

[WizardTN]

I have looked at the same thing. My take is that it is a much better use of my money to keep putting it into sorting pennies even with the time involved. In addition I am increasing my "emergency stash" of money in half dollars that at least have of a "melt" of 25 cents.
I continue to keep an eye on all options, including little round copper stamping blanks.

As far as bars in general, I am a large fan of fractional stuff. As prices of metals rise, the ability to have ready access to lower valued amounts of a metal without have to resort to a chisel, becomes vastly more attractive.
Look at gold. Now being traded in 1/2 and 0.1 GRAM units.

[natsb88]

I sell 1 kilo bars for $20.95 on my website. With spot at $4.40, that's about $0.35 per troy ounce over spot. That would be a great price for new silver, and an unheard of price for new gold, but people still cry "overpriced" when it comes to copper. Granted it's a much larger percentage of the spot price of the metal, but the actual "premium" isn't unreasonable when you compare apples to apples. (A lot of people seem to think you should be able to buy copper for $0.35 per pound over spot, but that's like asking a metals processor to buy, handle, pack, and ship 15 times more metal for the same $0.35 he can get to handle 1 oz of another metal...it just isn't going to happen).

[shinnosuke]

I sell 1 kilo bars for $20.95 on my website. With spot at $4.40, that's about $0.35 per troy ounce over spot. That would be a great price for new silver, and an unheard of price for new gold, but people still cry "overpriced" when it comes to copper. Granted it's a much larger percentage of the spot price of the metal, but the actual "premium" isn't unreasonable when you compare apples to apples. (A lot of people seem to think you should be able to buy copper for $0.35 per pound over spot, but that's like asking a metals processor to buy, handle, pack, and ship 15 times more metal for the same $0.35 he can get to handle 1 oz of another metal...it just isn't going to happen).

Sorry to hijack the thread, but natsb88, your response gave rise to some questions. When you say "new silver" and "new gold" are you referring to virgin metal, fresh from the ground? Also, is that what your copper bars are? Finally, does it even matter as long as it is the purity (.999) it claims to be?

When I was in the auto industry, we cared about the percentages of virgin resins and steels in the seat belt parts we were making.

Thanks,

[68Camaro]

I sell 1 kilo bars for $20.95 on my website. With spot at $4.40, that's about $0.35 per troy ounce over spot. That would be a great price for new silver, and an unheard of price for new gold, but people still cry "overpriced" when it comes to copper. Granted it's a much larger percentage of the spot price of the metal, but the actual "premium" isn't unreasonable when you compare apples to apples. (A lot of people seem to think you should be able to buy copper for $0.35 per pound over spot, but that's like asking a metals processor to buy, handle, pack, and ship 15 times more metal for the same $0.35 he can get to handle 1 oz of another metal...it just isn't going to happen).

Nate - since you brought this up, I had been wondering in my head why you (or someone else) doesn't just buy copper in the commercial Comex bar form and either resell as-is or, for smaller versions, in sliced off versions of them? Mark-up for those should be minimal. So I looked, and there is a large mark-up over supposed "spot" price for delivered, processed copper. For example, I found the below from a copper supplier.

Spec'd C1100 commercial pure copper bar stock, shipped for free. 2 x 2 x 12 inch bar which would weigh about 15.5 pounds, is $241 shipped. That's $15.5/lb

A 96 inch long bar would weigh just over 124 lbs, at $1663, or $13.4/lb. Starts getting a bit cheaper with volume, but...

At any rate, I have a greater appreciation now for your prices, which are cheaper than the above.

Back to cents - they aren't commercially pure, but at 95% Cu, or $1.54/lb Cu eq, pennies are the cheapest copper for the buck, bar none.

[natsb88]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but natsb88, your response gave rise to some questions. When you say "new silver" and "new gold" are you referring to virgin metal, fresh from the ground? Also, is that what your copper bars are? Finally, does it even matter as long as it is the purity (.999) it claims to be?

When I was in the auto industry, we cared about the percentages of virgin resins and steels in the seat belt parts we were making.

Thanks,

By "new," I just mean that the product is fresh from the mint, in sealed packaging, rather than a box of loose circulated bars/rounds like you often find at coin dealers. The metal could have originated from fresh ore, recycled wire, scrap jewelry, etc., but has been refined to .999 and made into a shiny new bar, and you're the first to own it.

Nate - since you brought this up, I had been wondering in my head why you (or someone else) doesn't just buy copper in the commercial Comex bar form and either resell as-is or, for smaller versions, in sliced off versions of them? Mark-up for those should be minimal. So I looked, and there is a large mark-up over supposed "spot" price for delivered, processed copper. For example, I found the below from a copper supplier.

A COMEX contract is 25,000 pounds. A mini contract is 12,500 pounds. I assume there is some sort of transaction/broker fee to buy the contract, then have to wait until the delivery month to take possession. Price is at a COMEX warehouse door, transportation is the buyer's responsibility. Copper cathodes look like this:



If somebody wants to front me $115,000, I'll give it a shot

Spec'd C1100 commercial pure copper bar stock, shipped for free. 2 x 2 x 12 inch bar which would weigh about 15.5 pounds, is $241 shipped. That's $15.5/lb

A 96 inch long bar would weigh just over 124 lbs, at $1663, or $13.4/lb. Starts getting a bit cheaper with volume, but...

At any rate, I have a greater appreciation now for your prices, which are cheaper than the above.

Yes, turning those cathodes (or scrap) into practical shapes is not a cheap process. Think about the energy and labor required to melt copper at 2000+ degrees, keep the oxygen out, cast it, roll it into bars, cut them to length, prepare them for shipping, transport them....it adds up. A lot of the small mints making bars are buying stock like you priced, cutting it, stamping it, shining it up a bit, and shipping it again.

Back to cents - they aren't commercially pure, but at 95% Cu, or $1.54/lb Cu eq, pennies are the cheapest copper for the buck, bar none.

Absolutely, but of course the purity and melt ban do present limitations, depending on an individual's exit strategy. When customers ask about the best way to invest in copper, I explain the pros and cons of pennies and bars. I sell pennies for roughly half the price of bars, and still sell plenty of both.

[WizardTN]

Sheeeeesh ... for a forum that is suppossed to be about pennies you guys sure throw some impressive numbers around.

"If somebody wants to front me $115,000, I'll give it a shot"

[natsb88]

Sheeeeesh ... for a forum that is suppossed to be about pennies you guys sure throw some impressive numbers around.

"If somebody wants to front me $115,000, I'll give it a shot"

You're right, we should probably start with the mini contract, that should only be around $58,000

(Easy to see why nobody has tried it when you starting looking at the size of the contracts).

[WizardTN]

I'm beginning to think I am out of my depth here with all the heavy hitters on this forum.

"10K a week"
"smoked an ebay deal for $3600""
etc.

While I am trying to figure out how to finance a $500 project that will take a few months to payoff. Hmmmmpf

I am just a 68yo crotchety ole coot that draws SS that equals what you guys make in a week.
Luckily everything I own is free and clear and I dont own a credit card.

Oh well ... guess it's time to shut my mouth and sort my box of pennies.

[SoFa]

Just curious, how much does new copper pipe cost per lb?

It doesn't seem like you could ever make a decent return if you pay retail for new copper (coins, bars, etc).

[68Camaro]

Wizard - there are a wide variety of people here, and plenty of room for you. Many work small. Many others started small and worked up a bit. There aren't many big players on here, and even those have good attitudes (most of them ). Some of the numbers you may see, like 10K a week, are talking about working capital which is constantly rotated for sorting. So yeah - they needed to work up to 10K, but they aren't generating 10K of new metal per week, necessarily - typically they would be using 10K of capital to buy sorting coins, which they turn back in for 9.9K along with $100 in new month to get 10K more the next week. You see more of this with the silver sorters than the penny sorters - a brick of halves costs a lot more, and it takes a lot of bricks to find any silver halves, as you can tell from some of the stories of many skunk boxes.

[rulesforrebels]

Any thoughts on whether its better to buy one large bar or lots of smaller ones?

[68Camaro]

Just curious, how much does new copper pipe cost per lb?

It doesn't seem like you could ever make a decent return if you pay retail for new copper (coins, bars, etc).

Practically speaking, looks like its $10-15 bucks a pound for processed tubing - similar range as for the pure bar stock above.

[68Camaro]

A COMEX contract is 25,000 pounds. A mini contract is 12,500 pounds. I assume there is some sort of transaction/broker fee to buy the contract, then have to wait until the delivery month to take possession. Price is at a COMEX warehouse door, transportation is the buyer's responsibility.

COMEX copper price is for cathode sheets, not for post-processed pure bar? I hadn't dug into that. Is there any guaranteed purity (or impurity) level on the Comex copper sheets?

[exbingoaddict]

I'm beginning to think I am out of my depth here with all the heavy hitters on this forum.

"10K a week"
"smoked an ebay deal for $3600""
etc.

While I am trying to figure out how to finance a $500 project that will take a few months to payoff. Hmmmmpf

I am just a 68yo crotchety ole coot that draws SS that equals what you guys make in a week.
Luckily everything I own is free and clear and I dont own a credit card.

Oh well ... guess it's time to shut my mouth and sort my box of pennies.

Wizard, my father once told me 'you have to do the little deals before you can make the big deals'. That sage advice could be applied to most situations, be it equities, real estate, or commodities.

No shame and very smart to start sorting copper pennies. Everybody has to start somewhere. I hope your $500 project works out and maybe adds a few more zero's to it. It might just be the little deal that leds you to bigger deals.

[natsb88]

A COMEX contract is 25,000 pounds. A mini contract is 12,500 pounds. I assume there is some sort of transaction/broker fee to buy the contract, then have to wait until the delivery month to take possession. Price is at a COMEX warehouse door, transportation is the buyer's responsibility.

COMEX copper price is for cathode sheets, not for post-processed pure bar? I hadn't dug into that. Is there any guaranteed purity (or impurity) level on the Comex copper sheets?

The cathodes must meet ASTM standard B 115-00, 99.99% purity. The purity isn't the issue, it's more that they are in relatively thin 3' by 3' sheets that weigh about 200 pounds and aren't easy to handle.