Melt Value

[adagirl]

Out of curiosity, lets assume that melting pennies and nickels is legal. Coinflation does an excellent job of telling us what the value of the metal content of particular coins are valued at. Looking at the 95% copper penny or 75% copper nickel, is there really a process that seperates out the copper from the nickel when melted? If so, how costly is this process? Who performs such a service? Again assuming this was legal, is the melting of coins for the metal content something one could do their own? I am a rookie at coin collecting, I am really curious as to how this works (if it does), and I am trying to justify my newly adopted hoarding behavior.

[mcsusanquilts]

There are businesses that deal with collecting metals for melting. There are also middlemen. (businesses that collect metal and turn it in to business that melt metal for a small profit). All we would have to do is part with our coins. That would be difficult because the more people who destroy their money; the higher the value of what is left. Therefore a shortage is created. No more hoarding!!!

[adagirl]

Oh I enjoy hoarding my pennies and nickels, and melting them, if legal, is the last thing I would want to do. My question is more from a survialist perspective, in that as a last resort if I were down and out and it was legal, are there companies that melt metals. I see there are business that melt metals from your post. Just as important is an alloy, is it possible to seperate the metals from the coin or would the "melting company" only try to recover the silver for example? Hoarding is so much fun and rewarding and I look forward to years and years of hoarding. In this current political/economic mess I can't help but think about a backup plan for my hoarding, should fiat currencies completely fail.

[mcsusanquilts]

When metals are melted; they would only consider keeping the expensive metals. The not so expensive metals would be recycled. If there were a shortage on coins; we would just go to plastic.

[adagirl]

Gotcha. So if one melted a copper penny, the copper would be kept and the remaining metal content would be recycled. As such there is a method to seperate the the two or more different metals, but I guess it is not profitable to try and collect the less expensive metal. That clears up what I was not grasping. Thank you. Here is to no steel or plastic coins!

[natsb88]

It's much easier to add more metals to the mix to create useful alloys than it is to refine each metal out. Copper pennies would probably just be used for brass, since they are already alloyed with zinc, and 75/25 nickels would be used as-is or have some more nickel added to be 70/30, another common alloy in industry.

[adagirl]

Thanks Nate. That is the real world information I was looking for. Melting on a large scale would increase the value of existing coins, and the melted coins would be made into a commonly used alloy for a multitude of uses. By the way, I signed up on your website last week. Thanks for the intel. It is nice to have access to the coin sage online.

[rickygee]

...My question is more from a survialist perspective, in that as a last resort if I were down and out and it was legal, are there companies that melt metals. ...

In a survival situation and everybody is down and out who is going to be doing business melting 95% copper cents and 75/25 nicks??? Power grid, gas lines down.

If it all comes down in the short term, IMNSHO, cents, nickels, silver rounds, gold bars, platinum ingots are nothing but trade units. Can't eat your pennies, or your platinum.

Can of Chili Beans in Sauce, now $.65...soon..."You tradin' coffee, whiskey, 12 guage buckshot shells, tobacco, pain killers, insulin, tuna fish, flashlight batteries, candles or... Sheet fire everybody got copper, silver n' gold. We' uns is hongry!"

Keep prayin' ladies and gents. It will get very ugly. Trust in God, stock up and keep your powder dry.

In the event of a "Major Ocurrence" your neighborhood Walmart* will be stripped bare in less than 24 hours.

[AGgressive Metal]

It's much easier to add more metals to the mix to create useful alloys than it is to refine each metal out. Copper pennies would probably just be used for brass, since they are already alloyed with zinc, and 75/25 nickels would be used as-is or have some more nickel added to be 70/30, another common alloy in industry.

As they say on Zero Hedge ... +1

[adagirl]

...My question is more from a survialist perspective, in that as a last resort if I were down and out and it was legal, are there companies that melt metals. ...

"In a survival situation and everybody is down and out who is going to be doing business melting 95% copper cents and 75/25 nicks??? Power grid, gas lines down. "

I am with you and totally agree. I am stocking up/hoarding other survival items as you pointed out. My hope, only if needed, would be to dump the metal before the point you mentioned. That of course would be more an art than a science. I don't intend on ever selling my hoard, but I am trying to also prepare for the worse given my added responsibilites and being in charge of providing and protecting my family. A new gig for me. As a rookie to metals and coins, I was seeking expert input on how the melting stuff works--and I have received excellent advice. I was really confused on how an alloy would be melted and the metals would be seperated or captured, and this board has helped relieve my anxiety. So many hoard for the melt value based on coinflation data, but then I thought how would you seperate out the metals and if this process is truly possible.

Unfortunately, I also agree with you that things are going to get worse. Hence the anxiety of being new to this (metals), and wondering how one would obtain the value of the hoard if the coins were melted. The current political and economic atmosphere is quite scary. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I truly appreciate everyone's feedback on this thread. The insights have been very insightful. My best to everyone.

[adagirl]

Thanks for the lead on Zero Hedge. I am checking them out now. I appreciate the intel.

[AGCoinHunter]

In the event of a "Major Ocurrence" your neighborhood Walmart* will be stripped bare in less than 24 hours.

I would say your about 22 hours too long with this perdiction. I would give the parasites no less than 2 hours to strip it bare. Of course the first things to go will be the big screen TV's, gameing systems and DVD's and hip hop CD's. Water and food will last about an hour and they will be gone.

[adagirl]

I am new to the South (and having a hard time adjusting), but I see you are from the "Deep South," and culturally, at least down here you are right on. I have never experienced anything like the South before. I have read and heard about it, but it is totally different to actually experience it. PS-I think you are right on with your comparison of Obama to Hitler and Lenin.

[Lemon Thrower]

i'm told that the 35% silver in 1943 nickels and the 40% silver in 65-70 halves is so impure as to make separation impractical. also, one of those has magnesium with it which is particularly difficult to separate. i'm no expert, perhaps others can confirm.

[Rosco]

Just traded $22.00 of 40% thats 6.5 oz silver Got back 5 oz bullion from coin shop. It was ok as the 40 % came from sorting so at cost of face.

From now on its bullion and 90% for me

[adagirl]

i'm told that the 35% silver in 1943 nickels and the 40% silver in 65-70 halves is so impure as to make separation impractical. also, one of those has magnesium with it which is particularly difficult to separate. i'm no expert, perhaps others can confirm.

Let's hope someone can confirm this. As mentioned, I'm a neophyte in this field. This is excellent information that can help all of us in our strategies for collecting and investing.

[rickygee]

Michael of Market Harmony has a Q+A about refining on the Bullion Stacker website.

http://www.bullionstacker.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1724

Its focus is primarily gold and silver, but I bet he'd answer questions about copper too. I'm not a member over there just enjoy the posts. The only gold bullion I stack are those brand new all gold shield pennies!

[adagirl]

:cry: Just traded $22.00 of 40% thats 6.5 oz silver Got back 5 oz bullion from coin shop. It was ok as the 40 % came from sorting so at cost of face.

From now on its bullion and 90% for me

I agree. For me the answer given just reinforces my perceived need to post this question to the forum.

[adagirl]

Michael of Market Harmony has a Q+A about refining on the Bullion Stacker website.

http://www.bullionstacker.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1724

Its focus is primarily gold and silver, but I bet he'd answer questions about copper too. I'm not a member over there just enjoy the posts. The only gold bullion I stack are those brand new all gold shield pennies!

Excellent, I am about to check out the link you sent! By the way, how do you become a member?

[didou]

Out of curiosity, lets assume that melting pennies and nickels is legal. Coinflation does an excellent job of telling us what the value of the metal content of particular coins are valued at. Looking at the 95% copper penny or 75% copper nickel, is there really a process that seperates out the copper from the nickel when melted? If so, how costly is this process? Who performs such a service? Again assuming this was legal, is the melting of coins for the metal content something one could do their own? I am a rookie at coin collecting, I am really curious as to how this works (if it does), and I am trying to justify my newly adopted hoarding behavior.

Why you want to melt it in the first place ? I don't understand why everyone want to melt them, just keep them until you are ready to make a purchase, ideally buy the item you want straight trade from the metal you have. If you can't sell the metal to another investor who will keep it until price rise and sell it to another investor...

There is no point in paying someone to melt your metal to get the exact same thing at the output that in the input, minus what it cost to melt it. Loosing money to get nothing more. Unless you are a industry and planning on selling at 3x-4x time the melt value a useful item with the metal you buy. But it's completely irrelevant for us, look at the gold it's only traded between investor, there is very few industrial use for it. Only jewelry need it and it's a luxury item. Just don't melt it, ever.

If you want to know what to hoard, always get the purest metal you can find, at the right price. If you can afford it 99.9%+ pure metal are the best and sell for highest, don't buy anything else. The only reason to hoard not pure metal is because they are very cheap when you sort coins so even if they don't sell at full melt price isn't a lost.

[adagirl]

As noted above, I am new to PM and I am curious given all the talk about melt value. Semi-frequently you will see items selling below melt value to get potential buyers attention. And from a survivalist perspective, one should consider all possibilities. I have no intention to melt my coins. With all the advertising, coinflation, and the talk of melt value, as a newbie I wanted to know more. I have received some excellent feedback. There are some smart people on realcent, this is a cohesive group, and I have really enjoyed all the invaluable insight. I hope to learn more from folks. Many thanks to all.

[decomputing]

I agree with didou in the sense that one does not need to melt for the metal content. Pennies and nickels are already in a bouillon form and can be traded at face value or metal value as is. Think about it, today we have individuals selling coppers to other individuals on ebay for 1.5 or 1.6x face value without having to melt the coins to do so. Why would we not do the same thing in a survivalist scenario? Instead we'd probably trade coppers ignoring the face value of the coin and base the value intrinsically. The only reason to melt is if we are selling directly to a company that needs the copper to fabricate copper goods. Otherwise, we just trade coppers to each other in exchange for goods or services, much like today ... except today we really just trade copper for other forms of money.

[adagirl]

This is a great discussion. Right now we have millions upon millions of citizens that don't realize certain coins are worth more than their face value. So, for example, if our monetary system collapsed, a nickel is a nickel to the average Joe, whereas a bullion house, refinery, etc might be wiling to pay more $ for the nickel or penny. Again, just trying to consider several scenarios. Right now, the obivious method is to sell at the intrinisic value of the coin. Another example that comes to mind is Hoard by the Ton, he has tons of copper pennies, which represents a relatively large investment. In a time of need, where there are no banks, how would he use his investment in copper to survive? The quickest way I can think of is to have his stash melted into copper bullion so he could easily trade for food, water, shelter, etc. Something to think about.

[rickygee]

Here's a Market Harmony reply on melting nickels, on the Bullion Stacker site. His reply is about in the middle, interesting. I'll have to step up my nickel hoarding; only a truckload, huh?

http://www.bullionstacker.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2339

[didou]

how would he use his investment in copper to survive?

There is many question here and i think you have the wrong one. Precious Metal are a way to protect wealth, not survive and you need to actually have wealth.

You are better to get seeds and start a hidden garden, get rabbit or chicken, solar panel and water filtration if your goal is to survive. These are the right tools for the job, precious metal aren't. Build a community around yourself by moving away from city, then only trade with farmer that are in a walking distance of where you live.

When you have all you need to survive and paid without debt and you have wealth left (or you have wealth left and you ran out of time to get prepared), then you can use precious metal to store your wealth and recover it after the crisis.
OR
You can use precious metal to temporarily store wealth and make some, while they are worth more than face value, and spend it before the crisis arrive. Like hoarding metal at half it's price right now, wait for them to double in the next 2 years and buy a land before the society fell apart.

When there is no food in sight i think precious metal will be almost throw away, it will be a good time to trade them for a little food if you are really WEALTHY. Good time to buy and get richer, bad time for desperate seller who only have precious metal.

No one know the future, but if the crisis happen gradually, slowly over time, even poor people have time right now to store precious metal, in 2-3 years it will have grow big enough to buy a land. If the crisis happen very fast and sooner than you expected, precious metal will be only useful in like 10-15 years after the crisis, when industrial will have recover and start producing again.

Precious metal may be able to buy a land after the crisis has happen, to a desperate soul ready to sell all his life investment and flee in another country. You can't carry 6 month of food on yourself but you surely can move some ounce of gold. They may also be able to buy your life at the hand of a corrupt cops or military, where gun is useless since they will always out gun you. But from what i read, a bottle of liquor or cartoon of cigarette does a better job to grease the wheel in these situation.

I'm not sure of anything i written here. But each month i get deeper and deeper into the subject, my opinion of survival and precious metal change, it's obliviously a good move but exactly how it is and what's it's for get transform as i understand better and get my emotions around the idea that life in the future isn't going to be what i'm used too in the past.

This is my opinion and in no way a absolute truth. I have no idea if it's right or not. I currently being anxious every now and then that i'm wrong and never sure of what to do. I tweak my point of view every month about what's going on in the world and how i should react. So far i think this is the safest and best path for me.