Does anybody do this as a business or a job?

[mtalbot_ca]

Quite interesting.

If I wanted to start this type of full time business, I would certainly try to colocate with the coin transportation agency and act as a staging area for sorting. I would probably work out and arrangment that would mutually benefit :
- me, because of the lower fees and added security
- the transport company, since they would transport the coins to my customers (for that, I would need and established customer base)
- the banks, because they could get rid of the bags and get only boxes and also because they could act as the supply and dumping base, thus getting more business out of me.

I would also proably work on shifts to match the transport details.

My 2-cents, this was my day-dreaming job.

Cheers,

[fasTT]

Industrial processors like highroller and myself do it as a side line, not the main business. To achieve the scale that you need to make any money at this, you have to be doing something else to pay the bills other than pennies, Canadian nickels and coin silver.

You probably could make a minimum wage job out of it, but not much more unless you had other avenues of income with the coinage.

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

The 10% sounds about right before all the fees.. which could quickly erode any profits. Of course this means you are doing all the labor yourself.. and only getting whatever is leftover at the end. Therefor you have an opportunity cost.. what you could make by selling your labor in a more lucrative endeavor. You deserve a break today.. so repeat after me.. "Would you like fries with that sir?" That run rate is based on unrolled coin.. if only rolled coin is available to you.. as it is to many of us.. you have to factor in the time to liberate the coins from the rolls. There are machines for that.. such as the RollCracker 1000.. but they are heavy and pricey. Even I don't have one of those.. Santa forgot to bring it again this year.. even though I been good.

There are a few industrial sorting machines that could greatly increase the sort rate. It is kind of like drag racing.. speed is just a matter of money.. how fast do you want to go? If you stay with the Ryedale machines.. there is a limit to how many one guy can feed and keep running at once. Some of us run 3 or 4 machines.. any more than that would probably make you look like those guys in the circus that try to keep all the plates spinning on top of the poles.

When you crank up production.. the problems increase on a logrithmic scale. You think you have trouble dumping zinc now.. try dumping several $thousand every week.

When you are all done and have your copper all nicely and neatly sorted.. you have to take care of marketing and shipping. One new small scale sorter with a Ryedale can drive prices down.. as he needs to unload his copper at any price in order to free up the capital to continue sorting. The market is thin, and the folks often look for the lowest cost seller.. he makes the market until he runs out of inventory. OK, say everybody buys their copper from you and none of the other sellers in the marketplace. The problem with selling lots of coppers is you have to ship lots of coppers. Have you ever packaged up and shipped 30 69 pound boxes? That is only a ton. The tape ain't free either.

Tis truly a labor of love.

[misteroman]

There is one person who does it one here who has a system down to a science but he hasn't chimed in yet so I'll let him divulge his identity if he chooses too. He does $1500 a week and do a complete pick up, sort and re drop off in about six hrs and makes about $150 in doing so or $25 an hr.

[misteroman]

skinsfan.
Where are you in NY I'm in the Buffalo area.

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

There is one person who does it one here who has a system down to a science but he hasn't chimed in yet so I'll let him divulge his identity if he chooses too. He does $1500 a week and do a complete pick up, sort and re drop off in about six hrs and makes about $150 in doing so or $25 an hr.

Yeah, but he cheats.. he doesn't have to break any rolls. I am close to that level of efficiency.. but slightly slower due to not being able to get bagged coins. I just make it up in volume.

[SkinsFan0521]

Industrial processors like highroller and myself do it as a side line, not the main business. To achieve the scale that you need to make any money at this, you have to be doing something else to pay the bills other than pennies, Canadian nickels and coin silver.

You probably could make a minimum wage job out of it, but not much more unless you had other avenues of income with the coinage.

So, you actually make enough money sorting coin silver? I'd think that would be a MUCH lower profit potential since most of that has been fished out already.

[Tourney64]

There was one guy MaDeuce who went to Canada and pulled a large percentage of the 100% nickel nickels out of Canada and shipped them to the US in crates. He got a warehouse and a contract with Brinks and hired someone to help him. He worked several month up there. He was getting a Brinks delivery a week. And I estimate he cleared $250,000. He posted pictures of his entire operation after he completed it. He ended it when the percentages of Nickel were low and when the price of Nickel dropped.

[SkinsFan0521]

The 10% sounds about right before all the fees.. which could quickly erode any profits. Of course this means you are doing all the labor yourself.. and only getting whatever is leftover at the end. Therefor you have an opportunity cost.. what you could make by selling your labor in a more lucrative endeavor. You deserve a break today.. so repeat after me.. "Would you like fries with that sir?" That run rate is based on unrolled coin.. if only rolled coin is available to you.. as it is to many of us.. you have to factor in the time to liberate the coins from the rolls. There are machines for that.. such as the RollCracker 1000.. but they are heavy and pricey. Even I don't have one of those.. Santa forgot to bring it again this year.. even though I been good.

There are a few industrial sorting machines that could greatly increase the sort rate. It is kind of like drag racing.. speed is just a matter of money.. how fast do you want to go? If you stay with the Ryedale machines.. there is a limit to how many one guy can feed and keep running at once. Some of us run 3 or 4 machines.. any more than that would probably make you look like those guys in the circus that try to keep all the plates spinning on top of the poles.

When you crank up production.. the problems increase on a logrithmic scale. You think you have trouble dumping zinc now.. try dumping several $thousand every week.

When you are all done and have your copper all nicely and neatly sorted.. you have to take care of marketing and shipping. One new small scale sorter with a Ryedale can drive prices down.. as he needs to unload his copper at any price in order to free up the capital to continue sorting. The market is thin, and the folks often look for the lowest cost seller.. he makes the market until he runs out of inventory. OK, say everybody buys their copper from you and none of the other sellers in the marketplace. The problem with selling lots of coppers is you have to ship lots of coppers. Have you ever packaged up and shipped 30 69 pound boxes? That is only a ton. The tape ain't free either.

Tis truly a labor of love.

I agree with many of the things that you said and I'm in the VERY early stages of looking into this. The most important thing that I need to learn more about is the armored car companies and their fees and availability of receiving very large volumes of pennies. Along the same lines is the unrolled coin. If I can only get rolled coin, I'd probably end up spending entirely too much time/effort dealing with that. Since Brinks/Loomis, etc deal back and forth with the FED only in bagged coins, there's no reason to think that I couldn't get bagged coins IF I work out a deal with one of them directly.

I also agree with the issues of selling all those coppers. I don't see getting rid of the zincs as a problem as long as I had a relationship with an armored car company (again, it all comes back to this critical point).

You mention the industrial sorting machines... do you have any more information about them? Like a link, name, company I could talk to for more information, etc? I'd definitely be interested in looking into them. But, yes, I figure that working just by myself I would be limited somewhere around 6 Ryedales. While I don't have anything like this built yet, i don't see it being a problem at all to work up a very simple gravity fed hopper system out of something that could hold say $500fv of pennies into each Ryedale (or one larger one that several could draw from). But, once they're sorted, that's where I see myself being limited to 6 Ryedale outputs. I still need to count & bag (obviously automated, but I need to monitor and switch bags, etc) and ship them.

However, your line about "would you like fries with that" I completely disagree with. There's no way that I would even bother to start this if it wasn't an extremely high probability that I could make over $70k/year doing it (with a strong possibility to scale up several times). I'm talking about this being a real job, not a minimum wage job that I'd be working my a** off for. So, that's why I'm trying to do as much research as possible from as many different angles as possible before I start. So, I do appreciate any opinions, disagreements, criticisms, etc.

[SkinsFan0521]

skinsfan.
Where are you in NY I'm in the Buffalo area.

While I appreciate the information about the person who makes $25/hr doing this, I'm talking about making this a full time business, not just making an extra $150/week. But, it's that initial mindset that got me thinking about scaling up to an "industrial" level if the profits could be increased in that same scale.

I'm from near Binghamton... that's why the mention of a big time guy in Syracuse kinda has me a bit nervous. lol

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

I would like to see the plans for these "simple" hoppers. Do you have the anti-jam automatic shutoff circuit designed for the Ryedales yet?

Reis and Glory both make models of machines that would work well.. as well as double up duty for your bagging. The fries comment was because that is the level most start out at if you do the actual calculations. However a good fast food manager can make in excess of $70K. Of course even with the best equipment you are extremely limited if you are a 1 man operation. I have a pair of Mach 7's sitting side by side.. each capable of 4,000 coins per minute. I rarely run both of them at the same time.. I can't change the bags out fast enough.

Ways to achieve efficiencies would be capital equipment.. or perhaps employing others to do your labor if you can come up with a working model.

Where are you going to sell all this copper? There are already more than enough suppliers at the current low market level.

[PennyPauper]

I appreciate your excitement about the possibility of making it a business. And your at the right place for research.
I don't think anyone will be making anywhere near 70k a year on copper cents for quite some time.
It's totally possible a few years down the road but not now.You could position yourself now to be ready to,when the time comes.
The biggest obstacle now,or maybe the biggest help in still being able to acquire CU cents,is the melt ban.
Research Jackson metals of Ohio,the owner is why the melt ban was but back in place. I believe it was in place in the 70's also.
The market for CU cents is small now.You cannot sell the volume to maintain your desired goals.
If you take a longer term view,to have a market presence and sell when the ban is lifted,then you could reap big rewards.

The numbers and volume that you talk of doing is not easy.If your serious,I suggest buying a ryedale,they retain there value so little risk there,could be resold for 400-450 easy.
Then try obtaining 1k in cents each week.Then sort and return the zincs,probably 700-800 dollars worth.
Then rerun the copper cents and count and bag 200-300 worth into USPS medium flat rate boxes.
Then market those coppers and sell them,and ship them off.
Only then will you have a good idea of the work involved and enough experience to base a judgment of whether or not it would be a profitable endeavor.
This is a great hobby.Its also a way for some to make a few extra bucks doing something they enjoy.
A smaller few have developed businesses around it.I know some of them do ok with it and make a profit,but I can't say anyone is making a living off it.
But the few who have invested the effort in business,or hoarding large amounts,will indeed make some amazing profits when the opportunity presents itself.
Nothing ventured,nothing gained. Conventional wisdom says pennies are a waste of time.Your money and time are better spent in other venues or investments.Maybe it will work for you,maybe not.It all depends on your point of view.
Your wise enough to see the value presented in CU cents.Being able to extract that value efficiently is a problem many are trying to solve.
If I was in the position to start and run a large scale operation it would be a no-brainer.My view is a long term view.
But I'm not in that situation nor do I have the capitol to invest in it.
I think if you want to see big profits right away then sorting pennies is not for you.
But that's just one persons opinion.
I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.And your ideas and posts will always be welcome at realcent.
This is the best forum I have ever been a part of.The knowledge here is tremendous.And everyone is generous.

[slickeast]

I agree with Penny Pauper. The market is one of the challenges. Selling that much copper is going to be a challenge. If you are willing to sell at 1.5 you might move more, but profits won't be much. The start up cost is going to be high. 6 Ryedales, a high speed counter (or 2), coin bags, a cart to move large amounts of coins around, buckets, tape, printer ink and paper. This is just part of the list. No way is an armored car coming to your house.

Try doing what PP recommended. Run 3-4 ryedales with only $1000-$1500 in pennies. Then get rid of the zincs. Rerun them, and box them up. Do this all in one day. Now you have to sell them and get them shipped. Repeat this process 5 days a week and you will soon realize it is harder than it sounds.

Very few do this. The ones that do have unique situations that allow them to do it. Others (98%+) on here sort what we can we the resources available. Try dumping large amounts at any bank for too long will get you cut off. I can get away with dumping about $3000 a week in zincs. Never done it, but it is available if I need too. Even at that rate,i would have about 9 boxes of coppers to sell a week. That is $450 if I sell at 1.5 plus shipping in a non ebay environment.

The average sorter, again that is 98-99% of us, can't even come close to these numbers.

If you can work it all out, more power to you.

[slickeast]

70,200 a year is $1350 a week

If you sell for 1.5 profit in this crowded market that is 27 boxes a week or about 4 every day.

$2700 a week in copper means you sorted $10k-$12k depending on your percent. Or $2k+ a day

Now dump $1600+ every day (5 days)

Unless you have a business that can write up a contact with an armored car service, I don't see this being possible

[SkinsFan0521]

70,200 a year is $1350 a week

If you sell for 1.5 profit in this crowded market that is 27 boxes a week or about 4 every day.

$2700 a week in copper means you sorted $10k-$12k depending on your percent. Or $2k+ a day

Now dump $1600+ every day (5 days)

Unless you have a business that can write up a contact with an armored car service, I don't see this being possible

Exactly... I figured that I would start out sorting $10k-$20k in mixed pennies per week. IN THEORY a Ryedale can sort through $5k in mixed pennies in 30-35hrs (including clearing jams, etc). So, if you scale that up to 4 Ryedales, that's sorting $20k in mixed pennies per week or ($4k per day, if you're talking about a 5 day work week). So, if you figure that I would get 20% coppers and net 1.5x face after fees, shipping, etc., that makes a profit of about $2k/week or $104k/year (BEFORE Brinks/Loomis fees). So, at that volume & profit, there is room for a lower percentage some weeks, brinks fees, etc. However, if Brinks is going to charge me 5% for buying and 5% for selling, then the whole idea is shot and this thread is dead. hahaha That's why I'm trying to gain as much information as possible on this forum dedicated to the penny sorting hobby.

And as I've said several times.... this ALL DEPENDS on getting a deal with an armored car service (that much supply and the ability to dump that many zincs). I'm aware that they won't be coming to my house. I've already looked at available space for rent in my area and it's definitely economical enough to barely put a dent in profits if I'm sorting $20k/week.

[SkinsFan0521]

I would like to see the plans for these "simple" hoppers. Do you have the anti-jam automatic shutoff circuit designed for the Ryedales yet?

Reis and Glory both make models of machines that would work well.. as well as double up duty for your bagging. The fries comment was because that is the level most start out at if you do the actual calculations. However a good fast food manager can make in excess of $70K. Of course even with the best equipment you are extremely limited if you are a 1 man operation. I have a pair of Mach 7's sitting side by side.. each capable of 4,000 coins per minute. I rarely run both of them at the same time.. I can't change the bags out fast enough.

Ways to achieve efficiencies would be capital equipment.. or perhaps employing others to do your labor if you can come up with a working model.

Where are you going to sell all this copper? There are already more than enough suppliers at the current low market level.

First, I don't see how it would be a big problem to have a larger gravity fed hopper feeding the smaller hoppers on the Ryedale itself? The Ryedales are already gravity fed with the ability to continue to stack the hoppers on top of one another. So, instead of buying 40 of those things and making a "leaning tower of pennies", you just have a larger hopper with a tube running into say 4 of those small hoppers attached to the Ryedale. I'm not sure why you're making it sound like black magic when it's basically just an extension of a system that everybody already thinks is great?

As I said in the post that I just posted in reply to another member... I'm not talking about making $10/hr or anything like that. I'm talking about volume of sorting $10k/week to start and be able to continue to keep scaling up from there to at least $20k/week. And the reason for picking that number is that I feel that's where my speed will be at the limit as well as it being a number that I should be able to make around $100k/year. You're talking about a good fast food manager making in excess of $70k... sure, but they're at the top. I'm talking about starting at 70k for proof of concept and once that's done, scale up to continue to make more money.

Thanks for the information about the other sorters, I'll definitely check into it. Also, if they're sorting at multiples of the speed of Ryedale, then IN THEORY, that should just make things more efficient. I'm not pretending to know that these things are facts, that's why I'm here asking all these questions. As I previously mentioned... originally, I was just going to buy 1 Ryedale to sort coppers for myself on a small scale, then I started to realize that there may be a business to be made here. I did some research, but I need to find out the opinions/ideas of those who have been in this hobby for years since you're the ones with the most "real world" knowledge.

Also, I totally agree that where this whole idea may fall apart at the part where I need to actually sell all the coppers that I've sorted. The problem with this issue is that there isn't really a way to figure this out until you have that much inventory that you're trying to put on the market. lol

And yes, the obvious end goal is to get a system in place and working for a while and then hire employees to do the work for me for the "do you want fries with that" money. That's the idea of any business, right? The eventual goal of most Americans is to work for themselves and become successful enough that they can sit back and have employees do the "actual work" and you reap the rewards of your initial ideas and investment (both ideas and time).

Thank you very much for your opinions, information and ideas!!

[SkinsFan0521]

I appreciate your excitement about the possibility of making it a business. And your at the right place for research.
I don't think anyone will be making anywhere near 70k a year on copper cents for quite some time.
It's totally possible a few years down the road but not now.You could position yourself now to be ready to,when the time comes.
The biggest obstacle now,or maybe the biggest help in still being able to acquire CU cents,is the melt ban.
Research Jackson metals of Ohio,the owner is why the melt ban was but back in place. I believe it was in place in the 70's also.
The market for CU cents is small now.You cannot sell the volume to maintain your desired goals.
If you take a longer term view,to have a market presence and sell when the ban is lifted,then you could reap big rewards.

The numbers and volume that you talk of doing is not easy.If your serious,I suggest buying a ryedale,they retain there value so little risk there,could be resold for 400-450 easy.
Then try obtaining 1k in cents each week.Then sort and return the zincs,probably 700-800 dollars worth.
Then rerun the copper cents and count and bag 200-300 worth into USPS medium flat rate boxes.
Then market those coppers and sell them,and ship them off.
Only then will you have a good idea of the work involved and enough experience to base a judgment of whether or not it would be a profitable endeavor.
This is a great hobby.Its also a way for some to make a few extra bucks doing something they enjoy.
A smaller few have developed businesses around it.I know some of them do ok with it and make a profit,but I can't say anyone is making a living off it.
But the few who have invested the effort in business,or hoarding large amounts,will indeed make some amazing profits when the opportunity presents itself.
Nothing ventured,nothing gained. Conventional wisdom says pennies are a waste of time.Your money and time are better spent in other venues or investments.Maybe it will work for you,maybe not.It all depends on your point of view.
Your wise enough to see the value presented in CU cents.Being able to extract that value efficiently is a problem many are trying to solve.
If I was in the position to start and run a large scale operation it would be a no-brainer.My view is a long term view.
But I'm not in that situation nor do I have the capitol to invest in it.
I think if you want to see big profits right away then sorting pennies is not for you.
But that's just one persons opinion.
I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.And your ideas and posts will always be welcome at realcent.
This is the best forum I have ever been a part of.The knowledge here is tremendous.And everyone is generous.

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it! I do appreciate all your comments, but I think that I've answered/addressed many of them in my last couple posts (since you've posted this).

I'd just like to point out that first, I'm aware of the time and effort that goes into shipping out heavy packages and things like that. I've been selling PMs online for several years and I think that has helped me get a real idea of how things work. Had I not done any of that stuff, I think I would be in for a rude awakening.

Second, again, I'm talking about doing a large volume of $10k-$20k in pennies per week... not $1k a week. So, you are 100% correct that at a volume of $1k per week, there's no way to make a living off of it, but just like most other businesses... the profit is in the volume. Look at Walmart. They sell for less than everybody else does, but their volume is so high that they make much more profit than everybody (obviously there are lots of factors in this, I'm just using it as a simple, easy example).

Also, you made this comment:
"If I was in the position to start and run a large scale operation it would be a no-brainer.My view is a long term view.
But I'm not in that situation nor do I have the capitol to invest in it."

That is where I'm at right now. I am in the position to start a large scale operation and have the capitol available to invest in it. However, I'm certainly not going to do that blindly, which is why I'm here trying to gather as much information as possible.

[SkinsFan0521]

I agree with Penny Pauper. The market is one of the challenges. Selling that much copper is going to be a challenge. If you are willing to sell at 1.5 you might move more, but profits won't be much. The start up cost is going to be high. 6 Ryedales, a high speed counter (or 2), coin bags, a cart to move large amounts of coins around, buckets, tape, printer ink and paper. This is just part of the list. No way is an armored car coming to your house.

Try doing what PP recommended. Run 3-4 ryedales with only $1000-$1500 in pennies. Then get rid of the zincs. Rerun them, and box them up. Do this all in one day. Now you have to sell them and get them shipped. Repeat this process 5 days a week and you will soon realize it is harder than it sounds.

Very few do this. The ones that do have unique situations that allow them to do it. Others (98%+) on here sort what we can we the resources available. Try dumping large amounts at any bank for too long will get you cut off. I can get away with dumping about $3000 a week in zincs. Never done it, but it is available if I need too. Even at that rate,i would have about 9 boxes of coppers to sell a week. That is $450 if I sell at 1.5 plus shipping in a non ebay environment.

The average sorter, again that is 98-99% of us, can't even come close to these numbers.

If you can work it all out, more power to you.

I know that I already replied to your other post, but I feel the need to reply to a specific comment in this one as well...

"The start up cost is going to be high. 6 Ryedales, a high speed counter (or 2), coin bags, a cart to move large amounts of coins around, buckets, tape, printer ink and paper. This is just part of the list."

To be honest, that's not a high startup cost for a business that could potentially make $70-$100k in the FIRST year. All of those things that you mentioned (I'm actually thinking of 4 Ryedales, not 6) comes out to around $4k. That is a ridiculously small investment into a business to make $70k-$100k in the first year with the ability to scale up to an even larger operation (which would obviously cost more money, but you're rolling your profits back into the business). Generally, when starting a business, the startup costs are measured in multiples of annual income/revenue, not fractions. That's a huge difference!

[Diggin4copper]

I would worry about the long term feasability.. right now it would be tough to sell all that copper... in 3 or 5 years (guess) it might be very profitable, then in 6 to 8 years the percent of copper would make it prohibitive.. so I think there will only be a short 1 to 3 year window... Im gonna sort till that window then just sell

[SkinsFan0521]

I would worry about the long term feasability.. right now it would be tough to sell all that copper... in 3 or 5 years (guess) it might be very profitable, then in 6 to 8 years the percent of copper would make it prohibitive.. so I think there will only be a short 1 to 3 year window... Im gonna sort till that window then just sell

I agree that the window is probably 5 years or so (or less if they lift the ban on melting them)... that's why I want to do it now, not in 3 years from now. hahaha

[slickeast]

I think that everyone, including me, thinks that the market is too small to sell 25+ $100 boxes of coppers every week. Do a completed listing search on ebay and see how many boxes were sold in the last month. No one is against you, we are just stating the obstacles you will face, some being more of an obstacle than others. Think about it, out of the few hundred members on the forum, only one or two are sorting at the levels you are talking about.

We all hope that you can work out the logistics and make it work.

[SkinsFan0521]

I think that everyone, including me, thinks that the market is too small to sell 25+ $100 boxes of coppers every week. Do a completed listing search on ebay and see how many boxes were sold in the last month. No one is against you, we are just stating the obstacles you will face, some being more of an obstacle than others. Think about it, out of the few hundred members on the forum, only one or two are sorting at the levels you are talking about.

We all hope that you can work out the logistics and make it work.

I agree... that seems to be the biggest obstacle. I don't really know that there is a market for that many coppers either. I've checked the completed listings on ebay a few weeks ago, and that's mostly where I decided that the market might not be big enough. But, I'm still interested to see if (assuming the market is big enough... BIG assumption, I know) it's possible to do on this scale profitably.

[Copper Member]

I think that everyone, including me, thinks that the market is too small to sell 25+ $100 boxes of coppers every week. Do a completed listing search on ebay and see how many boxes were sold in the last month. No one is against you, we are just stating the obstacles you will face, some being more of an obstacle than others. Think about it, out of the few hundred members on the forum, only one or two are sorting at the levels you are talking about.

We all hope that you can work out the logistics and make it work.

At least at 1.5X

[PennyPauper]

Even if everything your planning works out to your advantage,I don't see anyone selling 2k in sorted copper each week.The volume here in a good week could add up to that. But not at a price that would support your desired profit margins. That could be attainable in the near future.
Hey I'm rooting for you,I hope you can do it. I wish I could make the jump to having or renting a place to sort and have the armored services show up every few days.
Sure the startup costs are small compared to other business models.You get your product at a discount to sales.
You just need the capitol to turn over and the labor/time to get it to market.
Looks easy on paper,but sorting is not so cut and dry.(slide) sorry couldn't help myself

Your idea about the hopper is good,but you would not want too much weight pushing down on the wheel.And you would need a way to cut off the flow when you will need to do maintenance,such as lubing,and removing bent and jammed pennies from the wheel.
You would be better off with a industrial sorter,but those in the know are reluctant to part with such information.And I hear they cost a pretty penny.

[barrytrot]

If you don't already have another job I say try it for a couple weeks!

And if you have another job take a 2 week vacation and try it.

That is the TRUE test.

After 2 weeks of working you will have a better idea as to whether you are able to "move product" fast enough to stay at it.