Reducing or eliminating the need for shipping

[Derek.Sheriff]

Anyone who has done business with me or seen some of my listings in the RC marketplace has probably realized that I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how people can trade copper bullion or use it to pay for stuff without having to involve the USPS each and every time they transact.

Counter-party risk will always be a problem. The only sure way to avoid that risk is to take physical possesion. But now a new bartering website has caught my attention. Unlike many traditional bartering networks, this one seems to have some new dimensions that wouldn't have been possible or practical before, but thanks to the internet, things may have changed for the better.

There are more than a few people there who are offering to trade copper and nickel bullion. I doubt it could ever replace eBay or even the RC marketplace, but I plan to experiment with it. Has anyone else used TradeChains.com or a similar barttering website?

[cesariojpn]

Coming up on the next episode of Barter Kings....

[barrytrot]

Intriguing, but it doesn't look like it is anywhere near critical mass yet. As such it's, unfortunately, a complete waste of most people's time to look at it.

Please post again when there are at least 25,000 items for trade listed. Then it will be worth getting involved in.

[Derek.Sheriff]

Intriguing, but it doesn't look like it is anywhere near critical mass yet. As such it's, unfortunately, a complete waste of most people's time to look at it.

Please post again when there are at least 25,000 items for trade listed. Then it will be worth getting involved in.

Exactly the reason why the founder mentioned in his FB msg to me:

"As you can imagine, the hardest part about launching a bartering site is having an initial database of diverse items for trade. If you'll take the time to list just a few items, it will be a huge help to me."

[penny pretty]

well, hell, I will at least take a look!

[Derek.Sheriff]

After spending more time browsing, the number of items available appears to be VERY small. I did my part to try to add to it by listing some mini-CTU's, and some Chinese yuan. In the near future I'll list lots of books and stuff as well as silver, .999 nickels and other foreign currency.

It's an interesting idea, but I worry it will never take off.

[barrytrot]

Also the biggest problem with it is that it is very open to fraud.

Or even breakage. Most items can break or deteriorate over time, so it might be totally legit on day 1 of the "chain" but eventually it may not be. And what happens when I break the item in my house that I don't even own? My guess is 99% of people would just disappear into the aether that is the Internet.

Or theft. Someone breaks into a house and steals something owned by someone else. How does insurance cover that. Quick answer: it doesn't. Long answer: even if it did, the cost to replace a unique-ish item is more than the "trade value" of the item anyway and no one that was just robbed is going to pay more to replace the item nominally owned by someone they don't even know.


Becoming the "nominal" owner of something that may not even exist isn't nearly as good as just paying for shipping

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

I heard there was some little outfit in Oregon that will store em for ya and save you the shipping.

[snappy]

next time someone takes some in to mail tell them it is matter for the blind. (include a braille page so it is true) you will find the shipping costs are WAY lower aka free.

[Derek.Sheriff]

Becoming the "nominal" owner of something that may not even exist isn't nearly as good as just paying for shipping

But is there any system in place right now where folks can actually trade paper notes (or the electronic equivilent thereof) that are redeemable for coppers or .999 nickels? I know the Portland Mint (PM) will store them for you, but how easy is it to transfer all or part of your PM holdings to someone else to pay for a transaction (online or face to face)?

Maybe the PM should start a bank like Peter Schiff's and offer copper and/or nickel backed debit cards

[barrytrot]

Becoming the "nominal" owner of something that may not even exist isn't nearly as good as just paying for shipping

But is there any system in place right now where folks can actually trade paper notes (or the electronic equivilent thereof) that are redeemable for coppers or .999 nickels? I know the Portland Mint (PM) will store them for you, but how easy is it to transfer all or part of your PM holdings to someone else to pay for a transaction (online or face to face)?

Maybe the PM should start a bank like Peter Schiff's and offer copper and/or nickel backed debit cards

That would be interesting.

However, there are logistical parts to it that have costs unfortunately.

Still if someone sets this up I will definitely support it!

[bazmonkey]

Interesting idea. It would be harder because of the volume than gold or silver trading. And I suspect a lot of us crazy sorters are doing this as a hedge against financial collapse, in which case physical possession of the copper is the point.

Are you talking about doing this specifically for copper pennies? There's already electronic ways to trade bulk copper, right?

[Derek.Sheriff]

Interesting idea. It would be harder because of the volume than gold or silver trading. And I suspect a lot of us crazy sorters are doing this as a hedge against financial collapse, in which case physical possession of the copper is the point.

Are you talking about doing this specifically for copper pennies? There's already electronic ways to trade bulk copper, right?

Yes. I'm talking copper pennies or nickels that are both legal tender and have a melt value close to or greater than their face value.

I agree that most people on this forum prefer to hold their own copper bullion. I'd never want all or even most of my metals to be held by someone else. But I'd also like to see more people transacting with money that competes with paper or electronic FRN's and can be a lasting store of value and not inflated away. The problem with copper and nickel is that it's way more cumbersome than precious metals. That's why I think it would be nice if you could transact with them without always having to ship or carry them.

Also, you made me think about something I hadn't thought of before. In at least some of the collapse scenarios that would delay taking physical possession or make it forever impossible, I'm thinking there would be a lot of abandoned structures and machinery containing copper. In such a scenario, the supply of scrap copper might rise quickly. In that case, if people wanted copper, might they just go after the abandoned stuff or trade with those who had. Would this diminish the demand for copper pennies? I'm just thinking out loud here. In some scenarios involving financial collapse, I could see the supply of copper going up and the demand for it going down.

I guess that's why I want my savings and investments spread across different assets and entire classes in case times get tough or even if they don't

[cesariojpn]

Also, you made me think about something I hadn't thought of before. In at least some of the collapse scenarios that would delay taking physical possession or make it forever impossible, I'm thinking there would be a lot of abandoned structures and machinery containing copper. In such a scenario, the supply of scrap copper might rise quickly. In that case, if people wanted copper, might they just go after the abandoned stuff or trade with those who had. Would this diminish the demand for copper pennies? I'm just thinking out loud here. In some scenarios involving financial collapse, I could see the supply of copper going up and the demand for it going down.

You can guarantee the copper purity of cents. You can't for copper wire or scrap.

[getdong]

I would like to find some type of local classifieds besides craigslist to do stuff off ebay. Ebay has the largest audience but doesn't work well locally in my experience. I've never had much luck selling coins, copper or currency on craigslist. There's a million free online classifieds and local classifieds for all cities and areas of hte country but I've yet to find one that is active enough to make it worth my time spending time posting and interacting on there

[Derek.Sheriff]

I would like to find some type of local classifieds besides craigslist to do stuff off ebay. Ebay has the largest audience but doesn't work well locally in my experience. I've never had much luck selling coins, copper or currency on craigslist. There's a million free online classifieds and local classifieds for all cities and areas of hte country but I've yet to find one that is active enough to make it worth my time spending time posting and interacting on there

I've sold some coppers locally on craigslist, but not a lot. Phoenix is a pretty big city. Also try backpage.com I bartered some coppers for ammo through that site.

[bazmonkey]

In at least some of the collapse scenarios that would delay taking physical possession or make it forever impossible, I'm thinking there would be a lot of abandoned structures and machinery containing copper. In such a scenario, the supply of scrap copper might rise quickly. In that case, if people wanted copper, might they just go after the abandoned stuff or trade with those who had. Would this diminish the demand for copper pennies?

At that point of collapse, I think the lack of vibrant economies using copper would diminish their demand. Copper isn't precious; it's not valuable "just 'cause" like gold or silver. It's valuable when there's something to do with it. Right now there's a lot to do with it so it's looking good, but when things get tough people won't stock up on copper.

[Numis Pam]

Interesting conversation and thoughts.... I enjoy all the different points etc.... thanks... and please keep sharing them.