Realcent.org

We took a little trip down the mighty Mississip this past week and I guess I was surprised by my soon to be 8 year old that is really getting into penny sorting. We stayed at a place that had a penny press, you know the thing you drop a penny and 2 quarters in and it flattens it out when you crank it through inputting a design on it for a souvenir. So I holler at the boys to come over and pick a design (4 to choose from) and one of them yells at me. He says he doesn't want to go to jail. I know I had a shocked look and asked why he said that. And he reminds me of how I said it was currently "breaking the law" to "ruin pennies" in his words.

So what do you all say to an almost 8 year old about that? I hadn't even thought about that until he said something. How do they get away with it but we can't sell them to be melted down? Is it that simple? You can destruct them but you can't sell them for scrap or melt them?

http://www.pressapenny.com/

This might be a market to look at

Check out what these things are bringing on fleabay! How about 17.5 x face with several lots sold? Finally, a way to get rid of all those zincer's !

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-1000-ELO ... 27c6392d60

We may need to pitch in and buy the Portland Mint a penny press and have some debate on the 4 designs to put on the wheel.

I say $100 per share x about 50 shares to get him going and he gets 50% of net with rest going to investors.

So how do these companies get by selling something that is obviously letting them profit from someone destroying legal tender?

I have another question... How many pennies per mile will fit on a railroad track? See where I'm going with this?

mbailey1234 wrote:So how do these companies get by selling something that is obviously letting them profit from someone destroying legal tender?

You can destroy legal tender all you want as long as you aren't trying to pass it off as a different denomination. "Collectable" companies paint coins all the time and sell them for a premium, punch fancy shaped holes in coins and sell them as novelties, make trick coins, etc.

The melt ban for US pennies and nickels is specific in that you cannot mutilate or destroy 1 or 5 cent coins in order to profit from the metal content. Sending them through a penny press and selling the oval that comes out for 50 cents is not profiting from the metal content, it's a novelty and is a relatively low volume process. Sending them through a roller and selling the flattened piece of copper in bulk for 2 cents each would be an obvious attempt to profit from the metal content.

Thanks for the explanation

we have at least one member here that is heavily involved in rolling cents (Elongated cents/coins)....she has several machines.

Is this outdated then? Seems to me this covers all destruction. Define fraudulently.

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+304+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28331%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

Man I hope this cold spell is about over... When it's midnight and I'm up digging through old US laws I think it's time to get out of the house....

mbailey1234 wrote:I have another question... How many pennies per mile will fit on a railroad track? See where I'm going with this?

About 87719 of them.

I'd be amazed if you could lay down that many pennies in the interval between 2 trains
though. ^_-

mbailey1234 wrote:Is this outdated then? Seems to me this covers all destruction. Define fraudulently.

fraudulently: to commit the act of fraud. So, in other words dont flatten that penny and then try and spend it, that would be fraud. You can alter or change or do whatever you want to your pennies, as long is that after you alter them, you dont try and spend them, that would be fraud. You also cant melt them, or alter (treat) them in a way to prepare them for melting.

mbailey1234 wrote:Is this outdated then? Seems to me this covers all destruction. Define fraudulently.

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+304+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28331%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

Man I hope this cold spell is about over... When it's midnight and I'm up digging through old US laws I think it's time to get out of the house....

http://www.usmint.gov/downloads/consume ... Notice.pdf

PART 82—5-CENT AND ONE-CENT COIN REGULATIONS
Sec.
82.1 Prohibitions.
82.2 Exceptions.
82.3 Definitions.
82.4 Penalties.
Authority: 31 U.S.C. 5111(d).

§ 82.1 Prohibitions.
Except as specifically authorized by the Secretary of the Treasury (or designee) or as otherwise provided in this part, no person shall export, melt, or treat:
(a) Any 5-cent coin of the United States; or
(b) Any one-cent coin of the United States.

§ 82.2 Exceptions.
(a) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to:
(1) The exportation in any one shipment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins having an aggregate face value of not more than $100 that are to be legitimately used as money or for numismatic purposes. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to authorize export for the purpose of sale or resale of coins for melting or treatment by any person.
(2) The exportation of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins carried on an individual, or in the personal effects of an individual, departing from a place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, when the aggregate face value is not more than $5, or when the aggregate face value is not more than $25 and it is clear that the purpose for exporting such coins is for legitimate personal numismatic, amusement, or recreational use.

(b)The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to the treatment of these coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.

(c)The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to coins exported, melted, or treated incidental to the recycling of other materials so long as—
(1) Such 5-cent and one-cent coins were not added to the other materials for their metallurgical value;
(2) The volumes of the 5-cent coins and one-cent coins, relative to the volumes of the other materials recycled, makes it clear that the presence of such coins is merely incidental; and
(3) The separation of the 5-cent and one-cent coins from the other materials would be impracticable or cost prohibitive.

(d) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins inscribed with the years 1942, 1943, 1944, or 1945 that are composed of an alloy comprising copper, silver and manganese.

(e) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins and one-cent coins exported by a Federal Reserve Bank or a domestic depository institution, or to a foreign central bank, when the exportation of such 5-cent coins and one-cent coins is for use as circulating money.

(f) (1) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins and one-cent coins of the United States shall not apply to coins exported, melted, or treated under a written license issued by the Secretary of the Treasury (or designee).
(2) Applications for licenses should be transmitted to the Director, United States Mint, 801 9th Street, NW., Washington, DC 20220.

§ 82.3 Definitions.
(a) 5-cent coin of the United States means a 5-cent coin minted and issued by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to 31 U.S.C. 5112(a)(5).
(b) One-cent coin of the United States means a one-cent coin minted and issued by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to 31 U.S.C. 5112(a)(6).
(c) Export means to remove, send, ship, or carry, or to take any action with the intent to facilitate a person’s removing, sending, shipping, or carrying, from the United States or any place subject to the jurisdiction thereof, to any place outside of the United States or to any place not subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
(d) Person means any individual, partnership, association, corporation, or other organization, but does not include an agency of the Government of the United States.
(e) Treat or treatment means to smelt, refine, or otherwise treat by heating, or by a chemical, electrical, or mechanical process.

§ 82.4 Penalties.
(a) Any person who exports, melts, or treats 5-cent coins or one-cent coins of the United States in violation of § 82.1 shall be subject to the penalties specified in 31 U.S.C. 5111(d), including a fine of not more than $10,000 and/or imprisonment of not more than 5 years.
(b) In addition to the penalties prescribed by 31 U.S.C. 5111(d), a person violating the prohibitions of this part may be subject to other penalties provided by law, including 18 U.S.C. 1001(a).

yeah I read that last night as well.

as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment makes it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.

e) Treat or treatment means to smelt, refine, or otherwise treat by heating, or by a chemical, electrical, or mechanical process.

I am kind of surprised that it isn't illegal to hoard over a certain amount of coins (yet). Whether they are being melted or not, it still has the same adverse affect by the principle of the more you take out of circulation the more they have to produce to replenish the supply. Couldn't hoarding or investing be deemed as a way to profit solely from value of the metal content of the coins? Do you often see people taking back bags of copper pennies to the bank for deposit to put back into circulation?

I did some advertising locally for selling these copper pennies and you wouldn't believe how many scrappers have called wanting to buy them! I'm not sure if they don't know the laws or they just don't care but I am not ever going to knowingly sell to them. I'm not sure if making buyers sign a legal disclaimer is in our best interests when selling or not but with all the interest I can't hardly think that someone out there isn't melting them.

I understand the whole melt ban thing so I just wanted to clarify that. What bothers me though is they prohibit one area but let the other area run free. If I wanted to stock each one of the approx. 4000 Walmart stored with 10 each of 200 different smashed penny designs there isn't anything that is keeping me from doing that. But if I wanted to sell that same 54,000 # to a scrap yard it is illegal. Granted I probably would be using new shiny 2013's for my production but who's to say for sure? I am doing both things as a "means to profit" but one way is melting and the other is by a mechanical process. Same as the 1000's of penny presses out there isn't it?

Just another debate, that's all. Then I remembered our government is involved so we shouldn't try to get all the answers because that would be impossible.

mbailey1234 wrote: Whether they are being melted or not, it still has the same adverse affect by the principle of the more you take out of circulation the more they have to produce to replenish the supply. Couldn't hoarding or investing be deemed as a way to profit solely from value of the metal content of the coins?

Yep. But the law right now prohibits "exporting, melting, or treating." Nothing illegal about sorting, hoarding, or selling bags of them over face value.

the word hoarding can be used as slang, or comical, and can also be construed in a negative or positive way depending on who you are dealing with. Dont forget "our" roots. We were once www.hoardingcopper.com ; In any case I do not view it as hoarding but as collecting. Who is to say that I am not allowed to appreciate the workmanship of the US cent. Who is to say I am not allowed to collect a specific US coin. Who is to say I can only collect coins that while having four of them that equally a dollar is any different than having one hundred of them that equal a dollar. I think it would be a stretch if they ever tried to limit the quantity of coins someone could collect. I think before they went after one & five cent "hoarders", they would have already went after the gold, and the silver.

Penny press info here.. http://www.pennycollector.com/AreaList.aspx

http://www.parkpennies.com/penny/penny.htm

http://www.pressedpennies.com/

http://www.pressedpenny.com/

Hm. Would it be illegal to sell to a scrap yard if they offer to buy? The scrap yard would certainly be breaking the law by melting them, but is it illegal for a hoarder to sell them to a scrapper?

scyther wrote:Hm. Would it be illegal to sell to a scrap yard if they offer to buy? The scrap yard would certainly be breaking the law by melting them, but is it illegal for a hoarder to sell them to a scrapper?

how do you know you arent dealing with an informant? or an undercover fed? I would avoid it until the remove the ban.

natsb88 wrote:

mbailey1234 wrote:So how do these companies get by selling something that is obviously letting them profit from someone destroying legal tender?

You can destroy legal tender all you want as long as you aren't trying to pass it off as a different denomination. "Collectable" companies paint coins all the time and sell them for a premium, punch fancy shaped holes in coins and sell them as novelties, make trick coins, etc.

I wonder if in theory one could punch a 1/4" decorative hole in the center and sell them as artistic flat washers for handyman collectors. I'm thinking coin floors could be glued down and the left over flat washer centers could fill in the gaps between coin circumferences. All interesting dreams. I'm just happy to use 12 boxes of the precious ( 200 lbs ) in the teenagers trunk for Winter traction.

scyther wrote:Hm. Would it be illegal to sell to a scrap yard if they offer to buy? The scrap yard would certainly be breaking the law by melting them, but is it illegal for a hoarder to sell them to a scrapper?

If you suspect that they'll break the law, yes; if you believe they will follow the law, no.

frugi wrote:

scyther wrote:Hm. Would it be illegal to sell to a scrap yard if they offer to buy? The scrap yard would certainly be breaking the law by melting them, but is it illegal for a hoarder to sell them to a scrapper?

how do you know you arent dealing with an informant? or an undercover fed? I would avoid it until the remove the ban.

Even if it were an informant, is it even technically illegal to sell to someone who will break the melt ban, as long as you don't do it yourself? It was just hypothetical by the way, I don't have a scrap yard offering to buy.

scyther wrote:Even if it were an informant, is it even technically illegal to sell to someone who will break the melt ban, as long as you don't do it yourself? It was just hypothetical by the way, I don't have a scrap yard offering to buy.

That would be aiding and abetting and/or conspiracy.

Engineer wrote:

scyther wrote:Even if it were an informant, is it even technically illegal to sell to someone who will break the melt ban, as long as you don't do it yourself? It was just hypothetical by the way, I don't have a scrap yard offering to buy.

That would be aiding and abetting and/or conspiracy.

Hm ok. Good to know. I do wonder, though, if they would actually prosecute all the people who bring in $100 face value, or just the scrap yard and the refinery. Kind of like how they often (though certainly not always) let drug users go and only prosecute the dealers...

I noticed a local CraigsList ad selling copper cents that said the local scrap yard takes them... interesting ...