Did I get taken?

[gubni]

I recently bought 65,000 wheat pennies from 40's and 50's. The seller just told me that they were all from 40s and 50s. The seller neglected to tell me there were no steel pennies. When I asked him about it he said he assumed I knew there were no steel and is not willing to help fix the problem in any way. I feel like his description would include everything except 30's and older. At what point is it the sellers responsibility to accurately describe what he is selling and the buyer to ask questions? I did not know steel were worth any more than other wheats. I feel it would have been silly for me to ask a million questions about which year might or might not have been included. Some lessons we learn the hard way and if I got taken on the details then so be it. I respect the knowledge of you guys as I am fairly new to this.

[NiBullionCu]

Not enough information.

Were there pictures?

Generically I would have assumed 'wheat' penny means coppers, with 'steelies' being almost a separate category.

I can see where you might expect to have 'some' steelies in a 40's mix, but i guess I wouldn't fret if there weren't any.

What if the only steelies in the mix were rusty/crusties? that would be worse.

So i wouldn't call it a scam, just a misunderstanding.

[natsb88]

The way you phrased the poll answers is loaded, they both sorta make you sound like a victim.

If I bought a bag of wheats, I would not expect any steelies. I would expect all coppers. Steelies generally get pulled out, whether it be by sorting machines or human eyes. They are easy to buy in bulk on their own.

It would be perfectly acceptable for the bag to have a few steelies, but not a requirement or even an expectation. Kinda like it would be perfectly fine to find a 1909VDB-S in a bag of teens wheaties, but I certainly wouldn't buy the bag with that expectation or be upset if I didn't find one.

[gubni]

Not enough information.

Were there pictures?

Generically I would have assumed 'wheat' penny means coppers, with 'steelies' being almost a separate category.

I can see where you might expect to have 'some' steelies in a 40's mix, but i guess I wouldn't fret if there weren't any.

What if the only steelies in the mix were rusty/crusties? that would be worse.

So i wouldn't call it a scam, just a misunderstanding.

No pictures were provided. I would be ok with crusty steels just so long as it was an average mix.

[NDFarmer]

The way you phrased the poll answers is loaded, they both sorta make you sound like a victim.

If I bought a bag of wheats, I would not expect any steelies. I would expect all coppers. Steelies generally get pulled out, whether it be by sorting machines or human eyes. They are easy to buy in bulk on their own.

It would be perfectly acceptable for the bag to have a few steelies, but not a requirement or even an expectation. Kinda like it would be perfectly fine to find a 1909VDB-S in a bag of teens wheaties, but I certainly wouldn't buy the bag with that expectation or be upset if I didn't find one.

+1

I agree. I have bought over 100 bags of wheats over the years. It is rare that the "unsearched" (there is no such thing as unsearched by the way!!) bags have any 43's in them. The common date bags NEVER have 43's in them. They are just too easy to pick out.

[highroller4321]

Wheat pennies and steel pennies are 2 different things. Yes, steel pennies may have a wheat back on them but they are not called wheat pennies when they are bought and sold.

[TXBullion]

I recently bought 65,000 wheat pennies from 40's and 50's. The seller just told me that they were all from 40s and 50s. The seller neglected to tell me there were no steel pennies. When I asked him about it he said he assumed I knew there were no steel and is not willing to help fix the problem in any way. I feel like his description would include everything except 30's and older. At what point is it the sellers responsibility to accurately describe what he is selling and the buyer to ask questions? I did not know steel were worth any more than other wheats. I feel it would have been silly for me to ask a million questions about which year might or might not have been included. Some lessons we learn the hard way and if I got taken on the details then so be it. I respect the knowledge of you guys as I am fairly new to this.

I would not expect any steellies nor I think the "industry standard" for this type of purchase would expect to have steel mixed in. It would be a bonus if there were any I would say but implied. Kind of like if you are buying a CTU and you find a few wheats in there. It would have been perfectly acceptable to just get copper and the wheats were a bonus.

[barrytrot]

I've never thought that "bulk wheats" would include steels. They never do. Enough people that buy or sell wheats know that, that it simply "goes without saying".

You were definitely not taken.

[gubni]

Ok, I accept that it was my fault for not asking. Thanks guys!

[reddirtcoins]

I've never thought that "bulk wheats" would include steels. They never do. Enough people that buy or sell wheats know that, that it simply "goes without saying".

You were definitely not taken.

I agree although the last few bags I bought had steel. I just took that as a gift and a big surprise.

[cooyon]

No need to ask "a million questions"...just ask one...are there any steel cents included? Steelies are a whole 'nother animal from wheats, very much an exception to the rule.

[gubni]

No need to ask "a million questions"...just ask one...are there any steel cents included? Steelies are a whole 'nother animal from wheats, very much an exception to the rule.

Thanks, but I had no clue that question needed to be asked. To me a wheat penny form 40-58 includes any years made regardless of the metal they are made of. I learned about it now. To me it is just another penny.

[Zincanator]

I bought circulated steel cents for $3/roll last time I went to a coin show. If you want some for your collection, maybe a coin show is a good option. Plus you can see exactly what you're buying.

[byro007]

I just wanted to clear some things up here. I was the person who sold gubni the wheats. I am not out to scam or decieve anyone by any means. I am a honest seller and never meant for there to be bad blood over this deal.

[henrysmedford]

I did not find steel cents in change in the sixties as a kid so they have been pulled for a long time. Also if you bought a bag of zinc cents you might not find any 2009 cents as they are being pulled.

[68Camaro]

I can understand where the misunderstanding came from, but personally I wouldn't have presumed there were any steels in them. Most are getting pulled by coin machine magnets. Wheats gotten from general circulation have hardly any steel in them. And I wouldn't have felt compelled (if I was the seller) to offer any relief.

[henrysmedford]

I found this from--http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/33970/hobbies/the_history_of_the_1943_steel_cent.html

Even before the United States entered the war, there were inklings that the cent, as well as the nickel were in trouble. The nickel was made out of 75% copper. Copper was in huge demand due to its use by defense contractors in the manufacturing process of various supplies and equipment needed in case of the US going to war.

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the rumors only grew and in January 1942, The Numismatic Scrapbook Magazine reported that Treasury officials were giving serious consideration to using different metal contents for some coins. The first step occurred on January 23rd, 1942, when the Treasury ordered the removal of all but a trace of tin from the cent from the already small amount that had been in use. The existing supply of strips and planchets were used and it is speculated that cents produced in 1942 were produced of both metal compositions. This small change was expected to save 100,000 pounds of tin.

Throughout 1942, there were repeated attempts and pleas to the public to turn in their cents and nickels. Even with these pleas, the shortages continued and for the last six months of the year the mint scaled back production of cents and nickels. During this time, experiments were conducted with various metal compositions, fibers, plastics and even glass.
On December 18, 1942, Public Law 77-815 was enacted. This law called for the melting of more silver dollars and for the authorization of metal substitutes for the one cent and five cent coins not to go beyond December 31st, 1946. The nickel had already seen its change utilizing more silver in its content. The Treasury wasted no time and on December 23, 1942, Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau, Jr. ordered that all cents produced after January 1st 1943 be comprised of low-carbon steel coated with zinc. The zinc plating was to provide a thin coating to prevent rust and was to be no more than .001 inches thick. The same diameter of coin was maintained, but the weight was reduced from the standard 48 grains to 42 grains, due to the use of a lighter alloy. It took some time to produce sufficient supplies of planchets and production commenced on February 23, 1943 at the Philadelphia Mint with the Denver and San Francisco Mints beginning production the next month.

On February 27th, the first delivery of cents was made to the Treasury and within a few weeks, the steel cents were in circulation. Although the Treasury Department assured the public that the coin, after being in circulation for a while, would gain a distinct appearance, many people noticed the color resemblance of a dime. Complaints continued to pour into the Treasury. For example, due to there magnetic property, many mechanical devices treated the new cent as a slug. Back then, there were quite a few uses for the cent and this was a big deal.

The new cent was so much hated by the public that the Treasury was moved to issue them only when bronze-copper cents were not available. Still, demand for cents for business was so great, that the public was forced to use them as that was what was available. In the fall of 1943, the Treasury announced that no steel cents would be produced after December 31, 1943 and that the mint would produce cents from the pre-war alloy, but without tin. These cents, from 1944 through 1946 were to be known as shell-case cents, as the metal generally came from spent shell-casings. It was also announced that there would be no recall of the steel cent.
After the war, the Treasury did begin recalling steel cents for the next 20 years. Although not publicized, coins were to be returned to the treasury in the normal course of business. By 1950, steel cents were becoming scarce and by 1960, nearly non-existent. By this time, steel cents had deteriorated quite a bit. The Mint had coated the steel strips before punching leaving the edge of the coin subject to rust and corrosion. Even though a recall was in effect, the Mints own records indicate over 930 million remained in circulation.

By the end of 1943, the three Mint facilities had produced 1,093,838,670 of the one-cent coins. The copper released for the war effort was enough to meet the combined needs of 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 1,243 flying fortresses, 120 field guns and 120 howitzers, or enough for 1.25 million shells for our big field guns.

And from--http://coins.about.com/od/famousrarecoinprofiles/a/lincoln_cents_2.htm

Needless to say, the steel pennies weren't very popular, and in 1944 the Mint was forced to resume making brass-alloy pennies, wartime or not. Although the government denied that the steel cents would be recalled (hoping to prevent further penny shortages and hoarding,) after the war the Treasury Department quietly directed the banks to remove the steel cents from circulation whenever they encountered them. There are varying stories regarding the ultimate disposition of the 68 million recovered steel pennies. One tale has the government dumping them all into the Pacific Ocean, but the most reliable accounts state that they were melted down at the behest of the Mint.

[Zincanator]

While we're on the subject, some steel pennies for sale on the interwebs seem too shiny... I'm not an expert so maybe I'm wrong, but is there some process of re-plating the steel to make it look new (or better than new) again?

This auction is a good example... so shiny..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1141438626

[henrysmedford]

While we're on the subject, some steel pennies for sale on the interwebs seem too shiny... I'm not an expert so maybe I'm wrong, but is there some process of re-plating the steel to make it look new (or better than new) again?

This auction is a good example... so shiny..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1141438626

Yes re-plated

https://www.littletoncoin.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product5|10001|24551|-1|37968|

[Zincanator]

Thanks Henry. I dug a little deeper and now realize as Wikipedia says "Since many steel cents corroded and became dull soon after entering circulation, some dealers who sold the coins as novelties improved their appearance by "reprocessing" – stripping off the old zinc coating and then replating them. These reprocessed coins have little or no numismatic value."

[fansubs_ca]

I recently bought 65,000 wheat pennies from 40's and 50's. The seller just told me that they were all from 40s and 50s.

Based on that desciption as long as all 65,000 wheat pennies were there and every
one of them was from some year that fell during those 2 decades (even if they were
all from the same year to give an extreme example) you got what you should have.
If you want more specific coins to fill a hole in a collection you should probably just
buy one offs for the specific date and mint marks you want from sellers that specify.

The seller neglected to tell me there were no steel pennies.

Generally when people buy "wheat pennies" it's considered implied that they are all the
copper variety. So had he thrown in some 1943 steel pennies he might risk irritating a
customer that was expecting all coppers. Especially since they stand out people that
want 1943 steel pennies will seek them out and state that is what they were looking for.

Now if you were a person who happened to want a few in the mix it would be something
you should state in advance as if the seller happens to have some a lot of sellers would
probably be willing to switch out a few before shipping. Expecting a re-shipping after
the fact when they thought they were sending what you wanted in the first place isn't
really reasonable.

I have 6 of the 1943 steel cents myself, 5 I bought back in the late 80s for 5¢ each and
one I found in circulation up here in Canada a few years back. A neat thing to have a
few of but there's no reason to have buckets full unless you are a major coin dealer. ^_-

Maybe you should check the coins you got one by one, if you get really lucky you'll find
a 1943 copper (a rather rare error coin) in which case you are way ahead. (Just
don't "expect" to find one. ^_-) Should you find it and don't want it, I'd be happy to
trade you a 1943 U.S. steel penny for a 1943 U.S. copper penny.

[JobIII]

I think the sale of 40's - 50's wheats. Means you'll get a bag of wheat pennies from these two decades. If a buyer wanted to know specifically what years and mint marks are going to be in the mix, it should be asked before the sale is completed. Asking about steelies is pretty easy compared to asking about the ratio of 40's to 50's wheat cents.

Steelies only seem to show up in bags I purchase from non-coin people. Most other coin-friendly people tend to sell them separately (again just what I've seen from previous coin purchases).