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Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:58 pm
by pennypicker
I know this isn't the right forum for this rant but as collectors/investors some of you might find it interesting.

My granddaughter was recently engaged and she and her fiancee went to the local Jewelry store who advertises on tv that they "eliminate he middle-man and import their diamonds directly from overseas wholesellers and pass the savings on to their customers". So they pick out a nice engagement set that is (on sale mind you) for $3,499 marked down from $3,999. With sales tax it comes to $3825. They pay 50% down and finance the balance. Unfortunately the engagement crumbles after six months and the fiancee, who was caught cheating, tells my granddaughter to just keep the ring thinking this would be a nice concessionary offer. My granddaughter of course decides to take the ring back to the jeweler with the assumption that since they paid half down she will being able to sell the set back to them, get the entire 50% down payment back and hopefully there will be a little left over for her trouble.

To her amazement the jeweler only offers her $500 total for the engagement set and says he will subtract the $500 from the balance owed which has grown to almost $2000 because of interest. So all in all he was graciously willing to take the engagement set back, keep the $1900 down payment, and my granddaughter would still owe him over $1500 with accruing interest.

So my distraught granddaughter comes to me and asks what to do. We decide to take the set to every jeweler and pawn shop in town to get the best price. We don't tell them where we bought it or what we paid for it so this way nothing would influence or prejudice their offers. The lowest offer was $250 from a pawn shop and the highest was $550--also from a high-end pawn shop. And what was enlightening was that a jewelry store at the mall told us they didn't want to offend us but the diamonds were of such low quality that they couldn't make us an offer because they won't sell such diamonds in their store as it was disrespectful to their customers. In fact they said the diamonds were just one grade above industrial diamonds which are used in blades for cutting concrete, etc. Unbelievable :shock: Another jeweler told us he could make the same set in his store for $475.

Another interesting thing I learned came from a pawn shop owner who said he used to be in the import business. He said the #1 marked up item sold in America is diamonds; followed by clothes, then furniture and mattresses. He said mattress makers are really "criminal" in what they do. He said when constructing a mattress they will add just one $10 sheet of foam padding and then add $100 to the price of the mattress. Or they will "upgrade" the mattress and throw in a second $10 sheet of styrofoam padding, give the mattress a different model name and then increase the price of the mattress yet another $100. He told us that diamonds in the form of retail jewely is the biggest retail scam ever perpetrated on the American public!

After all was said and done I told my daughter next time just to buy some 90% junk silver at the local coin shop--at least that way she could get most of her money back if she needed to sell. ;)

Edited for math error.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:56 pm
by TXBullion
I dont like diamonds. Maybe for industrial use. Do the research on them and you will find it out it is an artificially created high price. I came to peace with this for the purchase of an engagement ring. Its not worth explaining to your to be fiance on why you didnt get her one. They dream of them their whole lives so get it for them. If you are bold and able to break the chain, my hat goes off to you. Then again, I would not advocate to finance jewelry either......

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:12 pm
by VWBEAMER
A friend of mine owned a pawn sop, he had a quart jar half full of diamonds. He would buy rings and stuff for gold value and get the diamonds for free. he would knock them out and keep them in a jar.

BTW, the lesson here is not to not buy diamonds, the lesson is to not buy buy diamonds at the mall. Go to respected Mom and Pop jeweler. Your going to get ripped off, but at a discount. That same set at a good jeweler would have been 1600 or so.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:23 pm
by pennypicker
VWBEAMER wrote:A friend of mine owned a pawn sop, he had a quart jar half full of diamonds. He would buy rings and stuff for gold value and get the diamonds for free. he would knock them out and keep them in a jar.

BTW, the lesson here is not to not buy diamonds, the lesson is to not buy buy diamonds at the mall. Go to respected Mom and Pop jeweler. Your going to get ripped off, but at a discount. That same set at a good jeweler would have been 1600 or so.


Good advice. My granddaughter didn't buy the set from a jeweler at the mall. It was at a jeweler in a mall that we took the set to get an offer and it was this jeweler who told us how low grade the diamonds were!

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:59 pm
by Nickelmeister
pennypicker wrote:
VWBEAMER wrote:A friend of mine owned a pawn sop, he had a quart jar half full of diamonds. He would buy rings and stuff for gold value and get the diamonds for free. he would knock them out and keep them in a jar.

BTW, the lesson here is not to not buy diamonds, the lesson is to not buy buy diamonds at the mall. Go to respected Mom and Pop jeweler. Your going to get ripped off, but at a discount. That same set at a good jeweler would have been 1600 or so.


Good advice. My granddaughter didn't buy the set from a jeweler at the mall. It was at a jeweler in a mall that we took the set to get an offer and it was this jeweler who told us how low grade the diamonds were!


When you purchase a substantial diamond it is essential that you get an independent third party grading certificate, preferrably from the GIA (Gemological Institute of America) which is considered the most highly regarded in the industry. EGL (European Gemological Laboratories) and others are a distant second. You simply MUST know what you are buying in order to make a proper evaluation.

Here are a couple good wholesale diamond online resources:

www.brilliance.com
www.bluenile.com

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:18 pm
by PennyBoy
TXBullion wrote:I dont like diamonds. Maybe for industrial use. Do the research on them and you will find it out it is an artificially created high price. I came to peace with this for the purchase of an engagement ring. Its not worth explaining to your to be fiance on why you didnt get her one. They dream of them their whole lives so get it for them. If you are bold and able to break the chain, my hat goes off to you. Then again, I would not advocate to finance jewelry either......


Easiest way to break the chain is to not get engaged in the first place. :idea:

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:59 pm
by HoardCopperByTheTon
I like PennyBoy's idea.. much cheaper. When DeBeer's started promoting that the engagement ring should be 3 months salary.. I said that is way too much for a chunk of carbon that is marked up astronomically. I would much rather have copper. Or you could just by her a Ryedale and put her to work in the copper mines. At least the Ryedale will retain most of its original value if you have to sell it on the secondary market. :mrgreen:

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:52 pm
by Morsecode
Debeers is the envy of wannabe monoplies the world over, and their PR campaign, generations in the making, is taken as gospel.

The plain truth is cut diamonds under two carats are not rare, unless unusually colored or flawless.

I once bought a loose 1 carat stone from a very respected jeweler, and it came with the appropriate independent appraisal. Think I paid $4500, and this was 1986. Several years later I took it to a different highly regarded jeweler for an updated insurance appraisal, with no mention of what I paid. It came back, to my delight, at $6000.

Ten years later a jewelry/bullion dealer whom I had done a ton of buying with "did me a favor" and gave me $1200 for it.

Buy rubies or emeralds instead. Or, if you have to get a diamond go to a pawn shop or antique jeweler.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:43 am
by Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay
Wait a minute. Maybe I missed something on the original post. After the break-up the ex-boy friend "gave" her the ring and gets to walk away from the payments still due???

Oh, Hell no! Get a lawyer and make the dude pay half of what is still owed. In my state there are "breach of promise" laws that make him just a responsible for the outstanding debt as the girl. Go after him.

I hear there are lawyers who are regulars on this site. Seek one of them out and get some info.

Yes, I learned a long time ago that diamonds are the most over-rated gem in the world. They are not rare at all. DeBeers has brain-washed the planet into thinking that. I will never buy a diamond again (bought one and that is enough!).

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:20 pm
by theo
I'm not a lawyer, but I have taught Business Law. Although Breach of Promise is a Common Law tort (legal wrong), most modern courts are reluctant to enforce this doctrine. Also, if the prospective bride broke off the engagement, the groom could claim that he made no breach even if the state does recognize Breach of Promise. Although cheating on your fiance is immoral, it is not illegal.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:34 pm
by HoardCopperByTheTon
I'm not a lawyer.. and I don't play one on TV.. or the forum.

Probably depends on how the account was set up at the jewelry store. If the account was set up in both their names, then both of them are on the hook for it. If it was set up in just his name, since he was the one buying this "promise" ring, she can walk from it free and clear and it would only be his credit that is will get banged up. I would imagine this wonderful jewelry dealer got both of them to sign on the account. Would this be secured or unsecured debt? If secured debt, isn't the ring the only remedy if they default on the debt? Maybe they just refuse to pay and take the hit on their credit rather than to continue to pay on a bad deal. They are young and their credit can be rebuilt over time. :mrgreen:

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:40 pm
by HoardCopperByTheTon
If they paid 50% down, how is it that she still owes the total amount of the purchase plus interest? Even with high interest rates (justified by the high risk of this type of financing) shouldn't the total owed be about 1800-1900? :mrgreen:

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:54 pm
by fasTT
Agreed. Diamonds are a huge rip off.

They resell to dealers for 10 - 15% of appraisal and get resold for 25-35% of appraisal.

Both Nickelmeister and myself buy jewellery and get a lot of diamonds. If anyone is looking for a diamond ring or other jewellery, send a message to Mark or I. You can get what you are looking for about 1/2 of jewellery store prices.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:57 pm
by jasmatk
I agree w/ hoard you say 3900 owed should be 1900.I would tell your daughter to take it to court make him pay his half or get a lawyer friend to draft up something. turn the ring over to the fiancee get him to sign taking full control of the ring.maybe he is stupid and will fall for it.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:33 pm
by rickygee
Take your soon to be blushing bride to Crater of Diamonds State Park in Arkansas, hand her a shovel, bucket, seive, big staw hat if it's sunny and tell her her dreamed of diamond is in there somewhere. She just has to do her part and find it. You'll pay to have it mounted in a gorgeous copper setting :roll: :lol: .

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:59 pm
by pennypicker
HoardCopperByTheTon wrote:If they paid 50% down, how is it that she still owes the total amount of the purchase plus interest? Even with high interest rates (justified by the high risk of this type of financing) shouldn't the total owed be about 1800-1900? :mrgreen:


HCBTT you are absolutely correct. When I wrote the post I was somewhat angry and forgot to proofread it otherwise I would have caught my error. Yes over $1900 is still owed and they both signed on the dotted line. The fiancee has agreed to pay the full balance owned since it was his act of infidelity that caused the engagement to end and he's letting my granddaughter keep the ring as well. We sold the ring for $700 through a private add in the paper and my granddaughter used that $700 to offset most of the $950 (her half of the down payment) so she is now only out $250 from the entire ordeal. Of course her credit rating could still be on the line depending on whether or not the ex-fiancee makes the remaining $1900 in payments in a timely manner!

But particulars aside, diamonds probably are the biggest retail scam ever perpetrated on the American public. :o

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:27 pm
by rickygee
Not at the Crater! It's finders keepers!

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:56 pm
by Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay
pennypicker wrote:
HoardCopperByTheTon wrote:If they paid 50% down, how is it that she still owes the total amount of the purchase plus interest? Even with high interest rates (justified by the high risk of this type of financing) shouldn't the total owed be about 1800-1900? :mrgreen:


HCBTT you are absolutely correct. When I wrote the post I was somewhat angry and forgot to proofread it otherwise I would have caught my error. Yes over $1900 is still owed and they both signed on the dotted line. The fiancee has agreed to pay the full balance owned since it was his act of infidelity that caused the engagement to end and he's letting my granddaughter keep the ring as well. We sold the ring for $700 through a private add in the paper and my granddaughter used that $700 to offset most of the $950 (her half of the down payment) so she is now only out $250 from the entire ordeal. Of course her credit rating could still be on the line depending on whether or not the ex-fiancee makes the remaining $1900 in payments in a timely manner!

But particulars aside, diamonds probably are the biggest retail scam ever perpetrated on the American public. :o


Even Elvis sang about how the American public is crazy about diamonds. Diamonds are the original "hunka, hunka burnin' love!" :mrgreen:

Pennypicker, tell your granddaughter how lucky she is to find out what a loser this guy was before she married him. Consider the lost $250 money well spent on the lesson learned!

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:45 am
by Insane-O
First, I'm sorry for your troubles. That sounds like a lot of frustration on many levels. I hope it turns out alright for you.

Second, I am wondering what is the reality of diamond buying for investment and wealth storage. :?: :?: :?: How does one actually buy a diamond at the spot price that can easily be flipped back for cash?

A few weeks ago I read an article about wealthy people flying out of Egypt because they were extremely nervous about the political and banking situation. The discussion turned to practical matters of moving huge wealth in a private jet and just what sort of physical store of wealth is the best in an emergency situation. The best method was said to be diamonds; really large expensive diamonds.

They were talking about taking hundreds of millions on the run. One businessman was said to have flown out $500 million in cash. Gold was just too heavy for flight. Good old cash was mathematically calculated to easily beat gold in terms of the sheer amount of value that could be stuffed into duffel bags and packed into a jet. The gold, while being small, was ultimately too heavy. American one hundred dollar bills (extremely popular overseas), or European five hundred euro bills would offer tremendous value to weight. The final answer, which I had not considered, was very large carat diamonds. Apparently, if you have hundreds of millions, you really need to spread it over bank accounts and stock accounts, a safe house with a walk-in vault, cash, gold, diamonds and some guns. The gold is probably going to be left behind when you really need to jet on out. Maybe use it to bribe people who stand in your way or who can provide transportation to the airstrip. Apparently the big secret is how to buy these loose diamonds at true value. I assume these diamonds are going to be millions of dollars each. Lots of value in a tiny package.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:41 am
by 68Camaro
Diamonds are, IMHO, risky as an physical commodity investment medium, as they are 1) newer than PMs/BMs as a value item, historically, 2) except for industrial use (for which there are now competing artificial products) they are primarily a marketing gimmick of DeBeers, and 3) they a graded item which is difficult for non-experts to understand. If you hire an expert to help you get primo high-graded products, they can be and have proven to be very effective as a means of transferring large sums in a small physical package, for a short-term emergency. That doesn't apply to many of us.

I married two years ago and (like another commentor way above) didn't view a diamond as an effective or practical use of that much money, but after testing the waters realized that this was a way too emotional issue for her and I was going to have to compromise or this was going to be an issue between us. Despite her having been brainwashed on this issue, she does, however, have a strong balancing desire to be cost-effective, so we researched as best we could, and found that the best value we could find in the North American market was in St Maarten. Graded Diamonds there are so much cheaper than from any other source that you can literally pay for your vacation (or honeymoon, if you want to do it there), get the diamond (and ring if you choose), and still come out far ahead. The diamond we bought for 1x there was appraised for 3x up here; but that was *too* good, we didn't want to pay for that much insurance, so we found another appraiser that came in at just under 2x.

The scary part of this is that I know they are still making a healthy profit, so it just further illustrates how a non-expert should not get involved in diamonds.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:33 am
by AGCoinHunter
rickygee wrote:Take your soon to be blushing bride to Crater of Diamonds State Park in Arkansas, hand her a shovel, bucket, seive, big staw hat if it's sunny and tell her her dreamed of diamond is in there somewhere. She just has to do her part and find it. You'll pay to have it mounted in a gorgeous copper setting :roll: :lol: .



Was about to say the same thing. Dig and its yours sweetheart.

Going through the whole engagement thing really opened my eyes up to this racket. Yes I got my wife a diamond but I made sure I researched the entire industry before buying. Wow, did that open my eyes. Ended up buying from a local jewler who is well respected. Funny how you can pay ~$2000 for slightly under 2 carats and when you take it to get an insurance appraisal it comes back around $10k. Made sure to throw in a platinum setting to boot which now is worth more than what I paid for the whole thing. I know what its worth and my wife loved it. Yes, it is the ultimate rip for the unsuspecting. I laughed at many a dealers who would talk their stuff up and bring out the crap. Yellow, hazy with black dots throughout and they wanted more than I paid for the whole ring.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:51 pm
by Finder
" Or, if you have to get a diamond go to a pawn shop or antique jeweler."

I agree with this poster.

Do your homework on diamonds online, buy a $5 loupe, then go to pawn shops and eyeball each stone you are interested in.
It will not be long before you know what a good Diamond looks like and what is a good price.

My wife's wedding band has a very nice stone, I paid $650 for the ring at a pawn shop and its worth every bit.
It blew away all the other diamonds under the counter.

Also, I would not buy one without at least a tiny inclusion seen through the loupe.

Flawless are rare, expensive, and possibly not natural anyway.
Further, your inclusion identifies it like a fingerprint if you ever take it to the jewelry repair place.
Some have been known to remove your good diamond and replace it with a lessor diamond while they have it, the customer usually has no clue.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:23 pm
by Nickelmeister
I agree with much that has been posted on this thread, HOWEVER - you cannot put a price on the years of happiness (and conversely, unhappiness) you will enjoy having pleased your wife with the "perfect" diamond ring. Happy wife = happy life :)

Disclosure: I just gave my long-time girlfriend a diamond engagement ring and she said yes :D

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:21 pm
by pennypicker
Nickelmeister wrote:I agree with much that has been posted on this thread, HOWEVER - you cannot put a price on the years of happiness (and conversely, unhappiness) you will enjoy having pleased your wife with the "perfect" diamond ring. Happy wife = happy life :)

Disclosure: I just gave my long-time girlfriend a diamond engagement ring and she said yes :D


Nickelmeister, well said and congratulations.

Re: Diamonds: The great American rip off!!!!

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:27 am
by beauanderos
Nickelmeister wrote:I agree with much that has been posted on this thread, HOWEVER - you cannot put a price on the years of happiness (and conversely, unhappiness) you will enjoy having pleased your wife with the "perfect" diamond ring. Happy wife = happy life :)

Disclosure: I just gave my long-time girlfriend a diamond engagement ring and she said yes :D

and on Valentine's Day... how romantic. Congratulations.