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Say you have $15,000 to invest.

Silver is at $46.26
Copper is at $4.38 (Which makes melt on copper 2.89 cents each)

$15,000 in silver at $46.26 = 325 ounces (rounded up)

If you get the $15,000 copper at face you have a value of $43,350.

Silver would have to go up to $133.38/oz without copper even moving to be equal!

$15,000 in copper say at 1.5x gets you $10,000 face with a value of $28,900

Silver would have to go up to $88.92/oz without copper even moving to be equal!

Even if you pay 2x for the copper you will get $7500 face with a value of $21,675

Silver would have to go up to $66.69/oz without copper even moving for things to be equal!

If the strategy is long term than what is the advantage to silver over copper??

Liquidity in the current market? Yes, but if you need liquidity fast than your stategy isn't really long term.

Liquidity in the future markert? Time will tell but the melt ban will eventually come off. The copper market also is getting stronger and stronger everyday with more and more investors getting in the market willing to buy.

Space? 5 tons really doesn't take up that much room and if you spread it out weight doesn't because an issue. Also there are companies out there that will store it for you!

This is assuming you could melt the copper to achieve those prices.
Also, storage would be an issue compared to silver and for me, personally, I don't want to a. pay anyone to store my metals or b. hold my metals for me.

While I see your points, there are alot of things that have to come together.

That much copper is also harder to steal. A small child can walk away with 325oz of silver.

I keep my copper in my garage in 5 gallon buckets.

Honestly, I'm more worried about my toolbox getting stolen than my copper, each bucket wieghs approx 180 lbs. Easch is worth $250 face value. The toolbox is on wheels and worth about 4K.

BTW, great insight by the OP!!!

I agree with this thesis and I am hoarding as much copper as I can sort. I don't want to pay over face value when I can get it for face with a little work. But I also think your entire thesis hinges on the melt ban being lifted. I agree it will be lifted eventually, but when??? The silver ban was lifted 5 years after the change in metal content, but it's already been 28 years since the penny changed from being 95% copper, albeit the penny melt ban was only put in place in 2007. I guess the first step has to be to abolish the use of the penny altogether.

in 2009 I was buying silver waiting for it to go up, and then stopped because it never did. Sure wish i had bought a lot more. I'm not sure where we are with pennies, we got two years, 4 years, 10 years?

One thing for sure, I'm 100% positve they will go up in value. Even if the melt ban is NEVER lifted.

Once all the copper pennies are gone from circulation the price will skyrocket.

How much is a wheat penny worth? How many people buy them to melt them?

Highroller, i'm not following yoru logic. last time i looked you charged 1.6 cents for copper cents. to make it simple, i'll say 1.5 and ignore the storage costs. copper is at almost $3. when they lift the melt ban, theoretically, you could capture the difference. so at best you can double your money if you ignore the discount of the smelter, storage costs, shipping costs, etc. and you have to hope for the law to change.

silver has gone up 5X in the last 2.5 years. I think it has 3-6X left. Copper might double from here maybe. Who knows when the govt will change their mind.

For the short term it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to spend their money on copper instead of silver. Copper has been flat for months while silver is going up almost daily. But many of us, including myself, are still buying copper nonetheless and yet I don't know why? Everyday I watch copper remain flat while silver makes large gains and I still buy copper...and I continue to ask myself why?

That's simple, Don...just read your tagline

And there's one thing highroller left out of the comparison: a built in stop loss at even money for those that buy & sort.

"A copper penny saved will someday be a dime earned!!!".....beautiful...

I've gotta agree with Adam on this. If you were to jump into silver or copper now, assuming you could get the copper at face, when the melt ban is lifted, you will instantly realize a 100% profit, if not more, depending on the generosity of your scrap yard. If you got into silver now, you'd have to wait until nearly $100/oz to get the same profit. Will people still be buying at that price? Will the world have gone to hell at that price? You have a better chance of seeing 2x on copper than $100/oz silver.

Morsecode wrote:That's simple, Don...just read your tagline

You hit the nail on the head Rob. (Someday) a copper penny saved will be a dime earned. But for the sort term silver is definitely where its at.

I would rather invest in $15,000 face value 90% silver

i agree in principle to what the op is saying.i gather copper pennies for the very long term.i think we have a few laws that have to be removed before we can see our work pay off. with that said,depending on when you got into silver and how long you plan on "holding",silver may not be for you at this time. i do believe that silver will correct in the 10% -20% range.so if you are not already heavy into silver you might want to wait for the correction.it is not for the weak handed. i am very bullish on silver and do believe that we will see $100.00 oz.i am still buying even at these prices because my cost avg is less than 35% of the current value.everyone needs to do their homework.penny hoarding has no down side at this point.a copper penny saved is still worth a penny. i have no doubt that copper will shine bright in the future.remember 90% silver was where a copper penny is today.hold steady.

I believe copper is a great diversification among the portfolio. To not have some would be foolish. 100%, no. Having a balance among your holdings is important

highroller4321 wrote:If you get the $15,000 copper at face you have a value of $43,350.

Silver would have to go up to $133.38/oz without copper even moving to be equal!

It could happen. That would make it roughly equavalent to its 1980 inflation adjusted peak price.

Heck, I hoard it all....copper, silver, gold, nickel, you name it. Although you do have to work a little to extract that copper. Just did another $125.00 worth tonight; it took me 3 hours, though. However, I got my new coin counter (DeLarue, 1800/min) and it sure is fast!!

My silver bull left the building at 20. I've actually started to sell some of my silver, to invest in copper and forex. I still have silver, but I've sold enough to clear it out free.

the problem is you can't get copper at face without a lot of work.

there is a spread between face and melt right now of 1.9 cents. today you can capture maybe 0.7 of that if you ignore shipping and your costs to sort the copper.

when the melt ban is lifted, you might be able to capture 80% of that spread. but in the meantime, silver as a monetary metal will outpace copper as an industrial metal imho.

DIVERSIFICATION IS THE KEY...it's easy for to look back and wish I had put all my money into silver, but if I had and silver had not gone up I would not be looking too bright. I agree, mix it up a little.

Copper will have it's day, and in the South we have a saying
" you have to get while the getting is good".

The getting is good on copper pennies right now.

TXBullion wrote:I believe copper is a great diversification among the portfolio. To not have some would be foolish. 100%, no. Having a balance among your holdings is important

DJS wrote:This is assuming you could melt the copper to achieve those prices..

False. Is anyone melting the gold and silver coins and bars that they've bought for investment purposes? The US government has been kind enough to assay and manufacture the 1/10th oz. 95% CU rounds for us to use as instruments of trade. Why would you want to melt such useful trading units? Unless you have an industrial need for the copper, there's no need to melt it down. These copper coins will trade at a premium to their face value in coin shops some day in the not too distant future, just like their 90% silver cousins do. The melt ban being lifted might accelerate this process, but it is certainly not an impediment to the development of a market for the coins.

agree you won't ever have to melt them but you won't get more than 1.7 cents out of 3 cents until the melt ban is lifted.

am also very skeptical that they will ever sell for a premium to melt. rather, they'll sell at a discount. right now if you refine 90% you get 90% of 90%. I expect copper sold for melt to be at 80%.

pennypicker wrote:For the short term it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to spend their money on copper instead of silver. Copper has been flat for months while silver is going up almost daily. But many of us, including myself, are still buying copper nonetheless and yet I don't know why? Everyday I watch copper remain flat while silver makes large gains and I still buy copper...and I continue to ask myself why?

Quite simple. As an investment, copper is much less attractive than gold and silver, due to its comparative bulk. As investors seek to insulate themselves from a depreciating currency, it's natural to expect them to favor gold and silver. But as the currency depreciation begins to accelerate and more and more investors are looking to preserve their purchasing power, copper will start to garner more interest. As gold and silver become increasingly expensive and scarce, copper will become more attractive and accessible to the average investor. Patience, my friend.

Lemon Thrower wrote:agree you won't ever have to melt them but you won't get more than 1.7 cents out of 3 cents until the melt ban is lifted.

am also very skeptical that they will ever sell for a premium to melt. rather, they'll sell at a discount. right now if you refine 90% you get 90% of 90%. I expect copper sold for melt to be at 80%.

Get back to me when copper is priced at $10 and above. It won't be long. I plan on getting at least 10X face for the pennies I've squirreled away.