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What if when the penny and maybe the nickel are removed or replaced from curculation and the treasury wants their property back? What if they dont like the idea of gov bought metals in the hands of "horders" .

EDIT--
I'm going to bet my whole premise was wronge b/c silver wasnt taken out of curculation. People mentioned the silver melt but it went through my ears, after thinking about it i came around to the same conclusion.

Silver was not taken out, so copper will not be either.
Silver was owned by the holder so copper will be also.

Looking back I really didnt think this through.

whatsnext wrote:What if when the penny and maybe the nickel are removed or replaced from curculation and the treasury wants their property back? What if they dont like the idea of gov bought metals in the hands of "horders" and they ask for them to be returned at a post office/bank/walmart for a return on face?

The idea around here is that they go bye bye from curculation and the people who have them keep and cash them in when it is legal to melt them. I dont think thats how it will go, why would they let something that's gov property fall away when they can get it back.

Money isnt an issue for them and it will not be in your interest to do otherwise in this event. So can I assume there is alot more risk to reward then is currently common thought?

I know investment is risk but, as stated the coins do not actually belong to you.

I'm not trying to be a downer but the question needs to be asked.

That doesn't seem to be a problem in Canada. Their government and their people are both trying to pull .999 nickel from circulation and melt it down. The Canadian government is doing it on a much larger scale, but still. Hand in hand.

As for our radical, totalitarian, Big Brother US Gov't (that is the belief here, isn't it?), I don't think they would try that. Also, how would they know who has what coins? Anyone that has done any major sorting could just say they were looking for Wheat pennies. And if worst comes to worst, I'm sure many people here would simply say, "Come get them." And not with a smile and open arms, mind you.

"

Gold was confiscated,silver wasn't,doubt they will bother with copper/nickel. Plus I'm sure they will continue making collector strikes so the mint can make some extra scratch. IMHO the reason the government is unwilling to touch the issue is that it shows how the dollar has lost so much of its value.Easier for them to keep the scam going than have to answer questions.Whats a couple million in losses on the one/five cent piece when they are making billions elsewhere.
And are they going to arrest citizens for having pennies in their pockets or home.
They need the problem of high coin cost to go away quietly.most likely we will see a metal comp change before we see them jailing the hoarders.
I for one can't wait for Ron Paul to sink his teeth into the fed "forign reserve" scam in his new oversight role.Barring a unfortunate accident its going to be fun watching berkanke and his cronnies trying to come up with enough double talk to save their hides.

They probably would if it was worthwhile. I don't think it is worth their time, or ever will be. So I doubt it. Anyway, they couldn't just take it. They could force us to turn it in but they would have to pay. Again, not worth it.

I have to ask a question myself here.

What can you provide to support the premise that all currency is "property of the treasury"?

"If" your premise is correct then all forms of currency be it , notes, coins or credits are the property of the treasury andthey can simply recall or take back whatever they want when they want, because your premise assumes they still have legal control over the property in question, and under no circumstances should it ever be considered "private property".

Needless to say I am in opposition to your assumption. I have worked and recieved compensation through contracts. The payment, be it notes, coins or credits are now my private property and under my control.

If this premise is true then why in recent years have we not seen Obama on TV demanding all hoarders of 90% silver to cough it up. . . or else! Or does this premise assume that older 90% silver coinage somehow differs from older 95% copper coinage. Doesn't add up. The thought sure makes me mad though

Just because it hasnt happened in 80 years doesnt mean it wont happen again

b

silver got melted and I would guess copper would also

Dakota's right. If the US had no problem at all with people melting silver, why would they bother with the small time game of copper? The government had years to see how much people were pulling in when silver shot up in the 80's, but they did nothing then. Even when copper goes up some, and the copper penny is worth three cents and people are paying that, do you really think the United States government is going to want in on the take? If they do, they'll set something up like Canada has. But if they go after the little guy, they will finally and very publicly remove the wool from the average American's eyes and expose the dirt on the fiat system.

i dont care what the gov't thinks..... i earned it, its mine

I agree with kurr I earned it its mine not to say the govmt wouldnt try to steal it.if they want it they can take it out of my cold dead hands.I seriouslly doubt they would go door to door looking for copper coins heres a link about currency control the author makes a good point by saying if its your money why cant you melt it? http://www.runtogold.com/2009/06/current-dollar-currency-controls/

Corsair wrote:That doesn't seem to be a problem in Canada. Their government and their people are both trying to pull .999 nickel from circulation and melt it down. The Canadian government is doing it on a much larger scale, but still. Hand in hand.

Not everyone in Canada, who are pulling .999 nickels from circulation, are melting them down.

whatsnext wrote:I had no idea the 999 nickel was being hunted and eliminated by it's own mother.

It's called the “Alloy Recovery Program” (ARP).

I know not everyone melts them down, but a sizable percentage does, including the government, and they don't mind at all. I didn't mean to make it sound that every nickel that is pulled is immediately rushed to a refinery.

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Corsair wrote:I know not everyone melts them down, but a sizable percentage does, including the government, and they don't mind at all. I didn't mean to make it sound that every nickel that is pulled is immediately rushed to a refinery.

Who melts them down, other than the government?

dpwozney wrote:

Corsair wrote:I know not everyone melts them down, but a sizable percentage does, including the government, and they don't mind at all. I didn't mean to make it sound that every nickel that is pulled is immediately rushed to a refinery.

Who melts them down, other than the government?

Canadian citizens. Again, it's not a large percentage, most hold on to them, just like I would. But I'm comparing it to the presumed situation here. When the melt ban is lifted, I bet it's going to be the government and the people going after the cents. But not the government going after the peoples' cents.

Corsair wrote:

dpwozney wrote:

Corsair wrote:I know not everyone melts them down, but a sizable percentage does, including the government, and they don't mind at all. I didn't mean to make it sound that every nickel that is pulled is immediately rushed to a refinery.

Who melts them down, other than the government?

Canadian citizens. Again, it's not a large percentage, most hold on to them, just like I would.

What Canadian citizens melt pure-nickel nickels? Who exactly does this, other than the government? I personally do not know of any Canadians who melt pure-nickel nickels.

Corsair wrote:I know not everyone melts them down, but a sizable percentage does, including the government, and they don't mind at all. I didn't mean to make it sound that every nickel that is pulled is immediately rushed to a refinery.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-52/FullText.html

“Melting Coins

Melting down coins

11. (1) No person shall, except in accordance with a licence granted by the Minister, melt down, break up or use otherwise than as currency any coin that is current and legal tender in Canada.

Offence and punishment

(2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) or any condition attached to a licence referred to in that subsection is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred and fifty dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, and, in addition to any fine or imprisonment imposed, the court may order that the articles by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed be forfeited to Her Majesty.

R.S., c. C-39, s. 10.”

My apologies. I am mistaken. I thought for sure that Canadian citizens could melt down their nickels. Is it legal for them to export them to the States to melt them?

Whats next! Who are you, who, who...who, who...let the rock and rollers understand.

Do you any idea how much US coin circulation is out of the USA. Can you imagine the value of US coins outside the USA if that happens.
The US government would not want to create a run on coins... They would use the banks and you woudl see a replacement coin.

But if things get that bad you are going to see them confiscate gold and silver first... but it would destroy the US dollar almost imeadately. 75 percent of all US money printed is OUTSIDE THE USA. If they start confiscating gold / silver you can expect a run on gold and silver outside the USA and the dollar will be dead instantly.

whatsnext wrote:Well kurr if you deface a dollar in a federal building with an officer looking at you I bet you could get arrested.

Not quite true...

United States Code
** TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
*** PART I - CRIMES
**** CHAPTER 17 - COINS AND CURRENCY

U.S. Code as of: 01/19/04
Section 333. Mutilation of national bank obligations


Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or
unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank
bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national
banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal
Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note,
or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined
under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

The other part is defacement ...

United States Code
** TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
*** PART I - CRIMES
**** CHAPTER 17 - COINS AND CURRENCY

U.S. Code as of: 01/19/04
331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or


Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.


So you can deface freely according to federal law and as long as you do not make the currency unfit to be reissued, you are within your rights.

whatsnext wrote:Those notes are property of the federal reserve you are Allowed to use as currency.

Those notes are property of the federal reserve you are Compelled to use as currency.

whatsnext wrote:Those coins are property of the treasury you are Allowed to use as currency.

Those coins are property of the treasury you are Compelled to use as currency.

whatsnext wrote:In society you use a measured currency PROVIDED by the government. <-----I know the story about the history of money, so lets just use the simple sentence provided

In society you have the OPTION of using a measured currency provided by the government. Much more simple and accurate statement in my humble opinion. We, as a quick example, make purchases just on this forum every day using non government issued currency. Look in the trade section. There is no law on the books that forces you to my knowledge to use official Federal Reserve notes or U.S. Treasury coinage as the base means for cunducting transactions. As far as I know things have to be done and vallued in FRNs soley for tax reasons through the IRS.

whatsnext wrote:I'm simplely asking you why do you think you own it if you had noting to do with the system but working to aquire a means to hold and transfer wealth. The treasury is the issuer an decider of coinage so they have some say in the matter. (I'd bet on it)

I make and "issue" if you will allow, the A&M 1 Gram Silver Bars. If you contract to do a jobfor X amount of bars, then you are in the position of soley "working to aquire a means to hold and transfer wealth" so does that mean as the creator and "issuer" of these bars I can recall them from you at any time? How about foriegn holders of currrency? Could the treasury or FED simply by being the issuer recall the currency from foriegn investors? From a lawful standpoint, certainly not! Same basic laws of property ownership apply.

whatsnext wrote:By the way I'm just some guy asking questions and not really in this to poke people or ack like I know anything.

I liked to be poked. It makes me re-examine my views. If I cannot defend my views perhaps I should abandon them for ones I can.

whatsnext wrote:Another thing is if we keep selling copper to the chinese then one day we may need to take the copper out to offset the simi-limited supply. Which could be a melt lift or a recall.

Wouldn't it produce more copper available for investment demand if they banned copper pipes because of lead in solder of some other such sillliness? The industrial consumption of copper far outwieghs the currency stand point even after 20 years of debasement on the cent policies.

Am curious, is the Canadian ARP also removing the nickel dimes and quarters and replacing them with cheaper steel coins? I see far fewer older dimes and quarters in circulation and a disproportionate amount of newer steel coins.