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Neil, you seriously believe that Americans are not (in general) ignorant? That's astonishing to hear. They are.

Id say there are still many who are "asleep at the wheel" rather then actually ignorant. I would however have to agree ignorance even among the otherwise intelligent is pervasive.

barrytrot wrote:

neilgin1 wrote:This Gold Slam is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks

Title should be -> from the pockets of the ignorant. Definitely not my pockets And (probably) not many other here either.

I intend to use this to make MORE money for my pockets actually

Huh? Didn't you say several times that you had "put your money where your big mouth was" on your $25 prediction? And yet you haven't lost money?

Ok, "functionally ignorant". Does that satisfy you

scyther wrote:

barrytrot wrote:

neilgin1 wrote:This Gold Slam is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks

Title should be -> from the pockets of the ignorant. Definitely not my pockets And (probably) not many other here either.

I intend to use this to make MORE money for my pockets actually

Huh? Didn't you say several times that you had "put your money where your big mouth was" on your $25 prediction? And yet you haven't lost money?

I am down on my most recent purchase, absolutely.

Down does not equal lost money. Just "down".

I'm holding and thanks to the power of options I can still profit a little from my negative $5 position since people love to buy options

Additionally I will be adding more to my silver position on Monday when I have cash again!

Both my current position and my new position will make me money. And because silver is at what I describe as a "very low risk entry point" I will make MORE money over time than had it not gone down previously.

barrytrot wrote:

scyther wrote:

barrytrot wrote:
Title should be -> from the pockets of the ignorant. Definitely not my pockets And (probably) not many other here either.

I intend to use this to make MORE money for my pockets actually

Huh? Didn't you say several times that you had "put your money where your big mouth was" on your $25 prediction? And yet you haven't lost money?

I am down on my most recent purchase, absolutely.

Down does not equal lost money. Just "down".

I'm holding and thanks to the power of options I can still profit a little from my negative $5 position since people love to buy options

Additionally I will be adding more to my silver position on Monday when I have cash again!

Both my current position and my new position will make me money. And because silver is at what I describe as a "very low risk entry point" I will make MORE money over time than had it not gone down previously.

Hm. Okay. I guess I need to learn about options and stuff.

barrytrot wrote:Neil, you seriously believe that Americans are not (in general) ignorant? That's astonishing to hear. They are.

no I don't Barry, because that would make it seem I am in some way "superior" to them, which I am not. No, they are not ignorant. I see them as "helpless and harassed, like sheep without a shepherd"...so rather them writing them off with arrogant disdain, (not meant to you) I would rather endeavor to share what I know with them, because I know, they have knowledge to share with me, that I don't possess.

and Barry, that has been the case so many times around here, i'm happy to say...too many times to outline to you in a post, but Barry, either we start embracing servanthood, esteeming others above ourselves, helping one another with knowledge, encouragement...binding us to each other...or...we play into the meme of "us versus them", which is just how certain folks want us, divided, hopeless and leaderless. if divided, we will fall.....in small tiny pockets every day. i'm hoping beyond hope a wave starts, and I for one, want to be right in the thick of it...tp pour any knowledge I might have unto others.

remember, Light always drives out the darkness....so may we be Lights...if that's idealistic, I happily plead guilty.

neilgin1 wrote:

barrytrot wrote:Neil, you seriously believe that Americans are not (in general) ignorant? That's astonishing to hear. They are.

no I don't Barry, because that would make it seem I am in some way "superior" to them, which I am not. No, they are not ignorant. I see them as "helpless and harassed, like sheep without a shepherd"...so rather them writing them off with arrogant disdain, (not meant to you) I would rather endeavor to share what I know with them, because I know, they have knowledge to share with me, that I don't possess.

and Barry, that has been the case so many times around here, i'm happy to say...too many times to outline to you in a post, but Barry, either we start embracing servanthood, esteeming others above ourselves, helping one another with knowledge, encouragement...binding us to each other...or...we play into the meme of "us versus them", which is just how certain folks want us, divided, hopeless and leaderless. if divided, we will fall.....in small tiny pockets every day. i'm hoping beyond hope a wave starts, and I for one, want to be right in the thick of it...tp pour any knowledge I might have unto others.

remember, Light always drives out the darkness....so may we be Lights...if that's idealistic, I happily plead guilty.

That was a very good post.

Thogey wrote:

neilgin1 wrote:

barrytrot wrote:Neil, you seriously believe that Americans are not (in general) ignorant? That's astonishing to hear. They are.

no I don't Barry, because that would make it seem I am in some way "superior" to them, which I am not. No, they are not ignorant. I see them as "helpless and harassed, like sheep without a shepherd"...so rather them writing them off with arrogant disdain, (not meant to you) I would rather endeavor to share what I know with them, because I know, they have knowledge to share with me, that I don't possess.

and Barry, that has been the case so many times around here, i'm happy to say...too many times to outline to you in a post, but Barry, either we start embracing servanthood, esteeming others above ourselves, helping one another with knowledge, encouragement...binding us to each other...or...we play into the meme of "us versus them", which is just how certain folks want us, divided, hopeless and leaderless. if divided, we will fall.....in small tiny pockets every day. i'm hoping beyond hope a wave starts, and I for one, want to be right in the thick of it...tp pour any knowledge I might have unto others.

remember, Light always drives out the darkness....so may we be Lights...if that's idealistic, I happily plead guilty.

That was a very good post.

Thank you Major...permission to stand down sir?

I believe Barry doesn't mean ill by any means, nor wishes to elevate himself. To be frank I've said things of similar vein myself. In that I've not meant to point to individuals but rather to Americans as a group, while believing that if we can't be honest with ourselves in a self-assessment about the country, who can. And you can't correct what you don't understand.

But I kneel to and salute your attitude Neil, as that's certainly the right way to approach individuals. I do believe we are required to keep our own humility while making the attempt to educate out of love and grace, leaving the results as the responsibilty of others to accomplish and their short-coming if they fail. Success may result in important individual instances even if the larger society chooses not to follow.

Nope, Barry is a bad man. He keeps it up and he will be getting all of our mother in laws.

neilgin1 wrote:

barrytrot wrote:Neil, you seriously believe that Americans are not (in general) ignorant? That's astonishing to hear. They are.

no I don't Barry, because that would make it seem I am in some way "superior" to them, which I am not. No, they are not ignorant. I see them as "helpless and harassed, like sheep without a shepherd"...so rather them writing them off with arrogant disdain, (not meant to you) I would rather endeavor to share what I know with them, because I know, they have knowledge to share with me, that I don't possess.

and Barry, that has been the case so many times around here, i'm happy to say...too many times to outline to you in a post, but Barry, either we start embracing servanthood, esteeming others above ourselves, helping one another with knowledge, encouragement...binding us to each other...or...we play into the meme of "us versus them", which is just how certain folks want us, divided, hopeless and leaderless. if divided, we will fall.....in small tiny pockets every day. i'm hoping beyond hope a wave starts, and I for one, want to be right in the thick of it...tp pour any knowledge I might have unto others.

remember, Light always drives out the darkness....so may we be Lights...if that's idealistic, I happily plead guilty.

Interesting that you think "sheep" is polite but "ignorant" isn't

Do I think I'm better than other people? No. I don't think it's about "better", it's about "knowledge" and I happen to know about financial stability. I think I could teach at least 90% of people some pretty nice techniques in that area so therefore it is IGNORANCE not "better or worse". Just ignorance. Were they to be taught they would know!


Ignorant is not a defaming title in any way. It is simply factual based on lack of knowledge about a subject. In this case, sadly, that subject is financial stability.

Where do people learn that? From their parents, some do. From schools? Public? NO WAY. Some private? Some teach it, but fewer than should. Other than that it's "hard knocks" that teaches it to you (que Neil story about the old days, seriously, I'm looking forward to it!). And today "hard knocks" are eliminated IMPROPERLY due to overly heavy reliance on "uncle sam hand outs".

I understand your stance Neil, but I'll stick by my statement: Americans, most of them anyway, are ignorant about this subject.

Barry beat me to it. Strictly by definition, ignorant is not synonymous with stupid... it merely means unlearned. However, in broad usage, this nuance is lost upon most listeners who tend to equate it with lower IQ

Rodebaugh wrote:Nope, Barry is a bad man. He keeps it up and he will be getting all of our mother in laws.

Can he take sisters-in-law?

beauanderos wrote:Barry beat me to it. Strictly by definition, ignorant is not synonymous with stupid... it merely means unlearned. However, in broad usage, this nuance is lost upon most listeners who tend to equate it with lower IQ

Man, I'm stupid. Or is it ignorant?

barrytrot wrote:

neilgin1 wrote:

barrytrot wrote:Neil, you seriously believe that Americans are not (in general) ignorant? That's astonishing to hear. They are.

no I don't Barry, because that would make it seem I am in some way "superior" to them, which I am not. No, they are not ignorant. I see them as "helpless and harassed, like sheep without a shepherd"...so rather them writing them off with arrogant disdain, (not meant to you) I would rather endeavor to share what I know with them, because I know, they have knowledge to share with me, that I don't possess.

and Barry, that has been the case so many times around here, i'm happy to say...too many times to outline to you in a post, but Barry, either we start embracing servanthood, esteeming others above ourselves, helping one another with knowledge, encouragement...binding us to each other...or...we play into the meme of "us versus them", which is just how certain folks want us, divided, hopeless and leaderless. if divided, we will fall.....in small tiny pockets every day. i'm hoping beyond hope a wave starts, and I for one, want to be right in the thick of it...tp pour any knowledge I might have unto others.

remember, Light always drives out the darkness....so may we be Lights...if that's idealistic, I happily plead guilty.

Interesting that you think "sheep" is polite but "ignorant" isn't

Do I think I'm better than other people? No. I don't think it's about "better", it's about "knowledge" and I happen to know about financial stability. I think I could teach at least 90% of people some pretty nice techniques in that area so therefore it is IGNORANCE not "better or worse". Just ignorance. Were they to be taught they would know!


Ignorant is not a defaming title in any way. It is simply factual based on lack of knowledge about a subject. In this case, sadly, that subject is financial stability.

Where do people learn that? From their parents, some do. From schools? Public? NO WAY. Some private? Some teach it, but fewer than should. Other than that it's "hard knocks" that teaches it to you (que Neil story about the old days, seriously, I'm looking forward to it!). And today "hard knocks" are eliminated IMPROPERLY due to overly heavy reliance on "uncle sam hand outs".

I understand your stance Neil, but I'll stick by my statement: Americans, most of them anyway, are ignorant about this subject.

Barry,

my usage of "sheep" was quoting a verse from the Bible, though I didn't provide chapter and verse attribution. the common usage of the word "sheep", in the world is one of insult...I wasn't using it that way.......and you go right ahead and stick by your statement...you're the keeper of your own soul. You do know Barry, that some could say that the concept of "financial stability". is not engaging in the speculation of highly volatile paper trading instruments tied to commodity prices...not trying to insult you, but as evidenced by the article posted, to even engage in the outright trading of futures, would be outright folly.....not financial stability. ...and I've done it, so I know what i'm talking about...its not stable.....but you go ahead...and best of luck.

Barry, I post and read article, like the one I did....and they just break my heart, i'm watching men grind this country into something terrible....they don't care about nothing, but their accursed "profit"....the "commonweal" of the public good?...the health of this nation?...what example we leave our children?....they don't care for anything but lining their pockets, and let the devil take the hindmost....someday the piper will have to be paid, and the proud and arrogant?....they will be looking up at Abraham and the beggar Lazarus begging for just one drop of water to cool their tongue,because all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted....this is truth.

natsb88 wrote:

Jonflyfish wrote:Valid points with respect to retail prices. Physical spot is institutional pricing and NYMEX contracts are for 5,000 ounces so that physical/financial relationship for pricing is sound without free arbitrage.
Cheers!

IMO that makes the physical price of silver a 5000 oz contract + delivery cost + cost of converting 5000 ounces to retail sizes. The base price of a 5000 oz contract alone is not the physical price of silver. You can't walk into a coin shop with a 5000 oz contract and walk out with cash. It's a means to an end, but it isn't tangible silver without additional effort/cost. It's just a paper contract, and it's only tradeable inside a certain marketplace.

Again I think we agree and are speaking to different markets. The spot market is for wholesale commercial lots. The contracts are good for 5 1000 oz bars at spot. I have taken delivery many many times over to that end. As for what someone does and how they labor to melt pour, press or stamp for retail pricing is beyond that scope. Just like buying 42,000 gallons of RBOB gasoline New York Harbor at spot FOB is not the same as mom or pop rolling up to the corner market and putting a few gallons into the Oldsmobile.

Cheers!

neilgin1 wrote:Let me put this all very simply...and as one who participated in the futures markets, both on and off floor; as long as man like Jon Corzine, who committed what is akin to the "unpardonable sin" ( trading segregated customer funds, and imploded MF Global) and continues to walk a FREE MAN, then you cannot consider ANY futures market in the United States as a TRUE place of price discovery.

There are too many feed lot operators, too many country grain elevators, legitimate hedgers, who have lost trust in the futures markets in this country.....chief among them...obviously is the silver market.

Anybody can say what they want, defend it, be an apologist for a totally dysfunctional trade entity....but I had the distinct displeasure to have a front row, as the most craven, short sighted greedy men this side of the Atlantic, WRECKED a good market....and that was the Pork Bellies. it might be somewhat of a joke NOW, but back in the day, many many hedgers used the Bellies to conduct business more effieciently....and in the process, they denuded the one commodity that is crucial for mercantilism to WORK....that commodity is TRUST.

There was a time when Bellies were THE speculators market, great liquidity, soild trending attributes, plenty of "action" for adrenalin junkies...late 70's, early 80's?....huge Japanese and Taiwanese money flowing into the Bellies, and some of the those guys just RAPED the Asians, I've seen more illegal trading practices than you can even imagine...and enforcement?

please...non-existent...a license to steal, and steal they did...in the process, they KILLED the market...and that's what going to happen to silver. Maybe somebody wants it DEAD....and then we'll see how you engage in transparent price discovery.

I remember when "Wall Street", the Stone film came out....Stone thought it would be regarded as a cautionary tale, au contraire! ....these guys, us....had lines memorized! Gordon Gecko was a F###ing hero!!! but i'm here to tell you, "greed is NOT good....greed DOES NOT work.....all that kind of headspace and worldview does, is just provide "FOOD" for communism and socialism.

Greed and avarice just lead to klepto-oliogarchy, which is exactly what we see today, when a guy like Jon Corzine walks a free man and its why we have the IMMENSE structural problems we deal with in a dynamic capitalistic society.

that's what I got to say.

I totally disagree. As someone who has for a very long time and continue to participate at many levels in the futures market, I can say that for someone to stand and declare price discovery doesn't exist in the most liquid markets because of Corzine is like saying that the entire physical metals market is a hoax because of tungsten filled gold bars, and to proclaim such as universal truth to that end because it has been said. It's patently false and disingenuous.

I know first hand why certain many commercial companies use the financial markets either being naturally long or short to offset risk, including a no frills airline providing cheaper fares- a benefit to all of their customers and it has everything to do with the original intended purpose of the commercial derivatives market.
I'm away from home working with a very high profile commercial client that is actively hedging in the markets and looking to improve that even further to continue to keep their prices low. This benefits the customer greatly. That is the truth.
Cheers!

neilgin1 wrote:Barry,

my usage of "sheep" was quoting a verse from the Bible, though I didn't provide chapter and verse attribution. the common usage of the word "sheep", in the world is one of insult...I wasn't using it that way.......and you go right ahead and stick by your statement...you're the keeper of your own soul. You do know Barry, that some could say that the concept of "financial stability". is not engaging in the speculation of highly volatile paper trading instruments tied to commodity prices...not trying to insult you, but as evidenced by the article posted, to even engage in the outright trading of futures, would be outright folly.....not financial stability. ...and I've done it, so I know what i'm talking about...its not stable.....but you go ahead...and best of luck.

Barry, I post and read article, like the one I did....and they just break my heart, i'm watching men grind this country into something terrible....they don't care about nothing, but their accursed "profit"....the "commonweal" of the public good?...the health of this nation?...what example we leave our children?....they don't care for anything but lining their pockets, and let the devil take the hindmost....someday the piper will have to be paid, and the proud and arrogant?....they will be looking up at Abraham and the beggar Lazarus begging for just one drop of water to cool their tongue,because all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted....this is truth.

I disagree. Futures/Markets/whatever are very viable. I have made money on them for years. You don't believe in them, that's fine, but there is a lot of money to be made and it's not too difficult.

I'm always on the "sell side" of options so I'm not betting, I'm "the house" And the house always wins.

Also I knew you were trying to paraphrase the Bible. I didn't think the context fit and still don't.

neilgin1 wrote:This Gold Slam is a Massive Wealth Transfer from Our Pockets to the Banks

Chris martenson and all the others who have predicted skyrocketing prices have a lot of explaining to do. Their answers get longer to try and cover their false prophecies.
they use tidbits of data out of context and use various suppositions and false claims against raw data to label it as "see- this is the obvious pattern" snakle oil lies and slick sounding cover up BS to try and save face for farce laced predictions gone sour. Just becasue a pumper and a promoter says it, it aint the truth so help them......

Cheers!

Jonflyfish wrote: and all the others who have predicted skyrocketing prices have a lot of explaining to do.

Im curious your explanation actually. Right before this recent drop you were telling us you expect a 2-400% rise. You had incorrectly called a large rise a few weeks back as well. Not trying to call you out, Im just curious what you feel changed.

Treetop wrote:

Jonflyfish wrote: and all the others who have predicted skyrocketing prices have a lot of explaining to do.

Im curious your explanation actually. Right before this recent drop you were telling us you expect a 2-400% rise. You had incorrectly called a large rise a few weeks back as well. Not trying to call you out, Im just curious what you feel changed.

My thoughts (and I may be 100% wrong of course) have been and still maintain that after this price drop finishes, prices are likely to climb 2-400%. That comment did not happen before, but during the drop. After the dust settles we will see. The non-existent future is always unknowable so the market will be the ultimate arbiter.

Cheers!

I really liked neil's response to barry's "ignorant" comment.

We are all ignorant. The sooner you accept that the better off you will be.

The "know it all" get HAMMERED in all areas of life. I think a wise man realizes how ignorant he is.

This is a fact: None of you KNOW why this metals market drop happened. But a lot of you behave as if you do and now you argue over who is ignorant.

Debt is bad, you leverage? You better think it through. Accept the fact you are IGNORANT, or you will get slaughtered.

If you point your finger at another American and classify him as ignorant you are misdirecting your focus.

I say this to all my friends here. You are ignorant. You do not posses the knowledge to navigate life or your finances or you silver management error free.

It is what it is. Two weeks ago I bought ASEs at 30 and was happy.

Make the decision to be happy today. I'm a stacker and will lower my average cost basis. 20 years from now, if I'm alive, my toes will be tappin

But truthfully, I am "ignorant" of the outcome of that prediction.

It sounds like folks are only ignorant if they don't agree with those who say they are not while proclaiming that death and destruction may come about to "know it alls" with dogmatic pontification warnings about what assets they must hold, BEHOLD you have been warned SHEEPle! LOL

Cheers!

Treetop wrote:Id say there are still many who are "asleep at the wheel" rather then actually ignorant. I would however have to agree ignorance even among the otherwise intelligent is pervasive.

what an interesting conversation this turned into. I certainly didnt mean to imply there is any group of people who are so knowledgeable they arent ignorant. In fact Id agree with thogey that we all are in one field or another.

I see many though who will deny the obvious no matter how blatant if it doesnt support their worldview. My grandma is an example. Mention prez bush and she goes into a tirade. Mostly true. If you point out however that obama did all the same stuff and expanded on them she shuts down and either makes excuses or just changes the subject. At times literally telling me I must be racist, apparently for knowing a bit about current events. that is the meme she decided to believe and no amount of reality will shake her from it. strangely when asking her of all these things obama did to be the greatest president of her life as she sees it about the only thing shes mentioned was race. she then will tell me how horrible it was for minorities in the 60s, as if it was somehow relevant. The things bush did make him the worst prez ever in her eyes, but obama is the best despite doing the same or worse on all major points she will list if asked. How is this not ignorant and dangerous? Imagine if so many like her or their right leaning counterparts who elected bush twice werent deluding themselves??? We might actually own our country again! Instead most choose to believe the story the like best instead of oing their best with whateve rabilities they have to find the truth. Of course even those of us seeking truth fail and get confused that isnt my point. But most of us arent trying, most purposely fight to ignore that which we do not want as part of our realities. To me this is ignorant and it is pervasive and very dangerous for this countries future.

Take OWS for another example. I knew many involved with it from gardening forums I used to be on. All they knew is big money was concentrated and times were tough. banks got bailed out the people got shafted. If however you tried to explain to most I personally knew HOW this happened they would shut down. They simply didnt care. their story wasnt that complex, they were going to camp in the street holding hands and this would fix our issues. they would be heard! Of course most of them seemed to think MORE government was the answer to govenrment in bed with banks, which serves the banks very well no doubt. Perhaps if they had atleast attempted to understand the issue there would have been a push for something that had a chance of making things better? There were several college educated people even including very trchnical fields. yet their "grassroots" movement was near meaningless and masturbatory. In talking to them the conversation strangely often ends up going into alternative economies such as barter as if this was an answer to our issues. When I try to explain how a medium of exhange enables a complex society for better or worse they dont care. they will just defend barter as if I had a problem with it. which I do not.

so for me of course we are all ignorant, especially on one topic or another. the difference I see is some will fight to stay ignorant and some push to stop being so. those who fight to uphold their stories no matter the reality are the ones governments and those with agendas and plans for th erest of us love. They can be swayed more easily. Of course all o us can be swayed. Its those who fight for ignorance though that I personally feel is one of humanities biggest issues today in an age we are truly a danger to ourselves in ways we never were in the past. Many of them, in fact most Id argue have good hearts. their hearts arent the issue though.

Many other examples I could get into of people fighting to uphold their story in spite of all counter data. This is probably long enough though. lol. I meant it not as a judgement of others but a classification of what I see happening around me. W ehave answers to all of our issues. If as a whole most of us ever stop upholding our stories in face of reality we will likely work it out and find stable ground in the end. Our current path though? i expect it is broken and jaded and likely with a dictator centralized global seat of power...