Silver - $27 going to Zero! Call your boss..beg for job back

[Jonflyfish]

Perhaps "Denial" is another option beyond ignorance.

Cheers!

[barrytrot]

I really liked neil's response to barry's "ignorant" comment.

We are all ignorant. The sooner you accept that the better off you will be.

The "know it all" get HAMMERED in all areas of life. I think a wise man realizes how ignorant he is.

This is a fact: None of you KNOW why this metals market drop happened. But a lot of you behave as if you do and now you argue over who is ignorant.

Debt is bad, you leverage? You better think it through. Accept the fact you are IGNORANT, or you will get slaughtered.

If you point your finger at another American and classify him as ignorant you are misdirecting your focus.

I say this to all my friends here. You are ignorant. You do not posses the knowledge to navigate life or your finances or you silver management error free.

It is what it is. Two weeks ago I bought ASEs at 30 and was happy.

Make the decision to be happy today. I'm a stacker and will lower my average cost basis. 20 years from now, if I'm alive, my toes will be tappin

But truthfully, I am "ignorant" of the outcome of that prediction.

Good points and all true.

That said: There are topics which we all have knowledge in. Some here are likely in the top 1% in the world in some subjects.

So yes a wise man would acknowledge that which he does not know, but he would not eschew knowledge which he possesses.

I didn't know why silver went down. I didn't know why it went up, sideways, or whatever any of the other times. I understand that, now more than I previously did, in fact.

I don't know a good many things. But I do know some things as well. Some things I have a cursory knowledge of and other things I am definitely in the expert level.


Silver - The one thing I know is that since Biblical and probably pre-Biblical times silver has been sought after. And, it is still sought after today. And I don't believe there was a point where it wasn't sought after.

Therefore I know that it's value is greater than zero. It might be $1/oz and it might be $100/oz.

I also know that there is a finite amount of silver. The combination of "above ground" and "below ground" is some number, "x". That's it. True, the "above ground" grows somewhat, but it will only approach "x".


Fiat money - The one thing I know is that more of it is generated every day by every country. And there is no "finite amount". Each government can at their sole discretion generate more or less on any given day. The Germans perfected this when paying off war reparations and other countries have added trillion dollar notes from time to time.

Therefore I know that it's value is prone to diminish over time. It may stay high for a while, perhaps my whole life, but the force should be downward.


So while I agree that I don't know why the USD is "strong" right now and why silver is "weak" and why comparatively Bitcoin is in many ways stronger than both. I do have at least a basic grasp on the fact that people seek after silver. I also know that when investing it's important to invest in things with lasting value.

Do most people understand either of those things: No. Could they: Yes.

They and I are both ignorant. But they are ignorant in any area that leads to speedy destruction of what little resources they may have created by the sweat of their brow or (in my case) tapping of the fingers.

I know simple steps to protecting my resources. Do I know all of them? No. Is there still a chance I'll be penniless? Yes. But the likelihood of me being penniless and the likelihood of someone with no knowledge of how finances work are astonishingly different.

[68Camaro]

Basics for me:

There is a real floor on long term price and at a minimum it is driven by the combination of industrial demand, diminished stockpiles, and increased difficulty in mining. Personal savings just adds to that. While some established mines may individually have locked in sell points as low as $4/toz, the fact remains that 70% of silver production is byproduct mining and the energy costs combined with environmental pressures create new silver costs in the high teens if not the mid to upper 20s.

If the price goes down to $16 or $18 or whatever I will continue to buy at what I consider bargin prices.

[scyther]

Where do you guys think fuel prices are headed? Cheap fuel could result in chap metal

[Engineer]

Cheap fuel could result in chap metal

[68Camaro]

Where do you guys think fuel prices are headed? Cheap fuel could result in chap metal

I'm trying to avert my eyes from the chap metal photo...

To your question, where do you think? Prices go up and down, and there could be temporary demand drops that could drop price of anything for a relative moment in time, but look at plots of the price of anything over time measured at least in decades and then ask yourself what trends you see. What items have dropped in price? Apart from trendy electronics and some manufactured goods where we are seeing temporary price drops due to off-shoring to cheap labor areas, I'm not aware of anything that is cheaper now than it was 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago. The global economy has already "off-shored" about everything that it can and there will be no more of those major price drops that we've taken advantage of the past 15-20 years. Folks, we've passed through the cheapest time to live in American history, and the time of more expensive has already started.

[shinnosuke]

Basics for me:

There is a real floor on long term price and at a minimum it is driven by the combination of industrial demand, diminished stockpiles, and increased difficulty in mining. Personal savings just adds to that. While some established mines may individually have locked in sell points as low as $4/toz, the fact remains that 70% of silver production is byproduct mining and the energy costs combined with environmental pressures create new silver costs in the high teens if not the mid to upper 20s.

If the price goes down to $16 or $18 or whatever I will continue to buy at what I consider bargin prices.

To your fine post and Barry's above it, I add:

From a casual review of history, no man-made government lasts forever. Of course, we see that some countries, such as England or China, have been around for a long time, but the governments within those geographical areas have changed many times. And nearly every time they do, there is a change in the monetary system. When that happens, there are winners and losers. However, gold and silver have been the, well, gold standard throughout history. If a dynasty became a republic and then a dictatorship, gold ownership preserved the wealth of those who could hang on to it through those kinds of political gyrations.

Fast-forward to 2013. Some say the American experiment is almost over. Some feel it still has many more years of taxing those with no connection to the halls of power and acting like Santa Claus, spewing out cellphones and EBT cards and disability benefits to those who could work if they wanted to. I feel that there is still a good chance the Stars & Stripes will be waving over America when the Savior returns, but the geographical boundaries of those United States may be considerably smaller than our current 50 states.

Federal Reserve Notes have seen a devaluation of over 95% since their spawning 100 years ago. Why depend on that sort of fiat when we know that precious metals never go to zero?

Where does the price of silver go next? I have no idea! But as Treetop says: "It's heavy and shiny" ... and I like it.

[barrytrot]

Basics for me:

There is a real floor on long term price and at a minimum it is driven by the combination of industrial demand, diminished stockpiles, and increased difficulty in mining. Personal savings just adds to that. While some established mines may individually have locked in sell points as low as $4/toz, the fact remains that 70% of silver production is byproduct mining and the energy costs combined with environmental pressures create new silver costs in the high teens if not the mid to upper 20s.

If the price goes down to $16 or $18 or whatever I will continue to buy at what I consider bargin prices.

To your fine post and Barry's above it, I add:

From a casual review of history, no man-made government lasts forever. Of course, we see that some countries, such as England or China, have been around for a long time, but the governments within those geographical areas have changed many times. And nearly every time they do, there is a change in the monetary system. When that happens, there are winners and losers. However, gold and silver have been the, well, gold standard throughout history. If a dynasty became a republic and then a dictatorship, gold ownership preserved the wealth of those who could hang on to it through those kind of political gyrations.

Fast-forward to 2013. Some say the American experiment is almost over. Some feel it still has many more years of taxing those with no connection to the halls of power and acting like Santa Claus, spewing out cellphones and EBT cards and disability benefits to those who could work if they wanted to. I feel that there is still a good chance the Stars & Stripes will still be waving over America when the Savior returns, but the geographical boundaries of those United States may be considerably smaller than our current 50 states.

Federal Reserve Notes have seen a devaluation of over 95% since their spawning 100 years ago. Why depend on that sort of fiat when we know that precious metals never go to zero?

Where does the price of silver go next? I have no idea! But as Treetop says: "It's heavy and shiny" ... and I like it.

+1 in gold!

[neilgin1]

Let me put this all very simply...and as one who participated in the futures markets, both on and off floor; as long as man like Jon Corzine, who committed what is akin to the "unpardonable sin" ( trading segregated customer funds, and imploded MF Global) and continues to walk a FREE MAN, then you cannot consider ANY futures market in the United States as a TRUE place of price discovery.

There are too many feed lot operators, too many country grain elevators, legitimate hedgers, who have lost trust in the futures markets in this country.....chief among them...obviously is the silver market.

Anybody can say what they want, defend it, be an apologist for a totally dysfunctional trade entity....but I had the distinct displeasure to have a front row, as the most craven, short sighted greedy men this side of the Atlantic, WRECKED a good market....and that was the Pork Bellies. it might be somewhat of a joke NOW, but back in the day, many many hedgers used the Bellies to conduct business more effieciently....and in the process, they denuded the one commodity that is crucial for mercantilism to WORK....that commodity is TRUST.

There was a time when Bellies were THE speculators market, great liquidity, soild trending attributes, plenty of "action" for adrenalin junkies...late 70's, early 80's?....huge Japanese and Taiwanese money flowing into the Bellies, and some of the those guys just RAPED the Asians, I've seen more illegal trading practices than you can even imagine...and enforcement?

please...non-existent...a license to steal, and steal they did...in the process, they KILLED the market...and that's what going to happen to silver. Maybe somebody wants it DEAD....and then we'll see how you engage in transparent price discovery.

I remember when "Wall Street", the Stone film came out....Stone thought it would be regarded as a cautionary tale, au contraire! ....these guys, us....had lines memorized! Gordon Gecko was a F###ing hero!!! but i'm here to tell you, "greed is NOT good....greed DOES NOT work.....all that kind of headspace and worldview does, is just provide "FOOD" for communism and socialism.

Greed and avarice just lead to klepto-oliogarchy, which is exactly what we see today, when a guy like Jon Corzine walks a free man and its why we have the IMMENSE structural problems we deal with in a dynamic capitalistic society.

that's what I got to say.

I totally disagree. As someone who has for a very long time and continue to participate at many levels in the futures market, I can say that for someone to stand and declare price discovery doesn't exist in the most liquid markets because of Corzine is like saying that the entire physical metals market is a hoax because of tungsten filled gold bars, and to proclaim such as universal truth to that end because it has been said. It's patently false and disingenuous.

I know first hand why certain many commercial companies use the financial markets either being naturally long or short to offset risk, including a no frills airline providing cheaper fares- a benefit to all of their customers and it has everything to do with the original intended purpose of the commercial derivatives market.
I'm away from home working with a very high profile commercial client that is actively hedging in the markets and looking to improve that even further to continue to keep their prices low. This benefits the customer greatly. That is the truth.
Cheers!

oh Jonny Jonny Jonny Fly Fish, you can "totally disagree" until you are blue in the face......till the cows come home, but to jiggle my words around, and hurl the charge "disingenious" MY WAY?.....i didnt quote, "declare price discovery doesn't exist in the most liquid markets because of Corzine" ....what i wrote was (as long as Corzine ) ...."continues to walk a FREE MAN, then you cannot consider ANY futures market in the United States as a TRUE place of price discovery".

big difference in wording there pal....""TRUE place"....."TRUE"....you know that word, right?....its akin to "honest"...or "upright", "clear" ,"transparent".....going further, we can get into "integrity"....the trouble is, that words and concepts such as those, stand in the way of ramping up the year end bonus compensation. In the light of that imperative, concepts like "churn and burn 'em"...or "pump and dump" are the guiding principles.

Please....dont tell me otherwise about the culture, i'm not some wide-eyed ditz you're chatting up in a hotel bar, trying to impress....i talked to TOO MANY guys i know, traders, large accounts, terrified in those early days after Corzine blew up Mann, coz they talked to counsel, hearing that they'll be lucky to see ANYTHING....but sure, after 3 million headaches and nightmares....yeh! they're getting 93 cents on the dollar!!...why the complaining!!!! (im lmao!!!....coz you're atypical of the lifeform found only in the futures industry....awww, man, i didnt mean how that sounded,,,you know what i mean.)

look man, i been out all morning playing on my tractor, and i got a song for you...serious, you're going to like this...you know the Beatles "Here Comes the Sun King"?..well, instead of the words..."heeeereeee cooooomes the Sun King"....we sing "Heeeeereee cooooooomes Jon Fly Fish(x2)......everybody's laughing.....everybody's happy......heeeeeere comes Jon Fllly Fish....quando, etc etc...the Italian part"....its a fricking HOMAGE TO YOU!!! to your total awesomeness....to your omnipotence!.....your brilliance.....i been singing it to the robins, the cattle, maybe some deer heard me...this is for you baby. enjoy and let me say CHEERS!!!!

[wolvesdad]

Neil, Barry, treetop, Sinno

So many good posts and points made here. And what is amazing is that we are able to have this conversation and each learn a little or a lot.

I wanted to commen on so many individual points and posts. Many agreements, a few disagreements.

I'm not where I can go back and read each one and do that but I want to try and say a few things:


Sheeple, ignorant, pawns, undertrodden- can be used almost interchangeably Sometimes. Maybe.

Here's what I see:
There are in America, 10s of millions, who are ignorant of what's going on and how all the behind the scenes can/will harm the future of all Americans.
Many of these, 60% or more, became, remain, and likely will remain ignorant as willing participants in a pleasure/enjoyment based addiction lifestyle that they will hold onto scratching and screaming. They don't want to be educated, they've been brainstormed and fooled into thinking learning and seeing just aren't any fun.

These people are all fully 100% accountable for their ignorance, many in the now...or to their kids in the now, but also in the hereafter.
BUT!!! There are many people, WE THE INFORMED, and THE EVIL GREEDY MANIPULATORS, who share to various degrees in the culpability for their situation. We, for handing the beggar $5 to just get him to leave us alone. Or WE for hating on those that suck on the welfare system, and yet don't try to make meaningful inroads in our local communities.
AND THEY THE EVIL ONES, in so many ways. From examples like MR MONEY/greed on the Shark Tank, to Pit Bull or similar artists of all popular music genres, who sing songs like "Shots, Shots Shots" giving glamour to uninhibited debauchery and drunkenness for the purpose of selling albums and alcohol!

I could go on and on!! But I'll just say, there are players that love all the mistakes we do to hurt ourselves. They profit by skimming pennies off the top in the goods and services we think we need but don't, and then when those things make us deaf and sickly and cancerous, they make even more money off the drugs that keep us alive. Their hands are in both pockets.

Just makes me sick.

So, we, the still-half-ignorant ones, what can we do?
Charity- not often of money, but in our time, patience and love. Talk to your neighbors....yes the guy that lives right next to you!!! Let them know u care and are their if he needs anything. But then slowly provide that which he really needs: a friend AND information and a waking.
Community, community, community. It doesn't matter how much we are able to prepare, if you don't have community the black helicopters or black horseman will come and haul you or your neighbor away.

And finally and most importantly, what I struggle with the most.....even if I'm ready for the 2nd Depression or TSHTF or WW3, even if my family or whole community are ready, if it is without Christ, then the Prince of this world, the great Evil, will have won. We are all humble horrible sinners in need of something more than financial stability. Even silver tarnishes and fades and will crumble in time, but our souls will go on forever. Either in the presence of The Father in Heaven, cover by the forgiveness of Christ,
Or forever in torment separated from the Light of Love, in the company of the demons in Hell.

It's only a little about survival and stability now. It is so much more about God's children and all our eternal welfare.

May the Peace of God that passes all human understanding be yours here and now and so that may we all be together in Christ in eternity.

[neilgin1]

Neil, Barry, treetop, Sinno

So many good posts and points made here. And what is amazing is that we are able to have this conversation and each learn a little or a lot.

I wanted to commen on so many individual points and posts. Many agreements, a few disagreements.

I'm not where I can go back and read each one and do that but I want to try and say a few things:


Sheeple, ignorant, pawns, undertrodden- can be used almost interchangeably Sometimes. Maybe.

Here's what I see:
There are in America, 10s of millions, who are ignorant of what's going on and how all the behind the scenes can/will harm the future of all Americans.
Many of these, 60% or more, became, remain, and likely will remain ignorant as willing participants in a pleasure/enjoyment based addiction lifestyle that they will hold onto scratching and screaming. They don't want to be educated, they've been brainstormed and fooled into thinking learning and seeing just aren't any fun.

These people are all fully 100% accountable for their ignorance, many in the now...or to their kids in the now, but also in the hereafter.
BUT!!! There are many people, WE THE INFORMED, and THE EVIL GREEDY MANIPULATORS, who share to various degrees in the culpability for their situation. We, for handing the beggar $5 to just get him to leave us alone. Or WE for hating on those that suck on the welfare system, and yet don't try to make meaningful inroads in our local communities.
AND THEY THE EVIL ONES, in so many ways. From examples like MR MONEY/greed on the Shark Tank, to Pit Bull or similar artists of all popular music genres, who sing songs like "Shots, Shots Shots" giving glamour to uninhibited debauchery and drunkenness for the purpose of selling albums and alcohol!

I could go on and on!! But I'll just say, there are players that love all the mistakes we do to hurt ourselves. They profit by skimming pennies off the top in the goods and services we think we need but don't, and then when those things make us deaf and sickly and cancerous, they make even more money off the drugs that keep us alive. Their hands are in both pockets.

Just makes me sick.

So, we, the still-half-ignorant ones, what can we do?
Charity- not often of money, but in our time, patience and love. Talk to your neighbors....yes the guy that lives right next to you!!! Let them know u care and are their if he needs anything. But then slowly provide that which he really needs: a friend AND information and a waking.
Community, community, community. It doesn't matter how much we are able to prepare, if you don't have community the black helicopters or black horseman will come and haul you or your neighbor away.

And finally and most importantly, what I struggle with the most.....even if I'm ready for the 2nd Depression or TSHTF or WW3, even if my family or whole community are ready, if it is without Christ, then the Prince of this world, the great Evil, will have won. We are all humble horrible sinners in need of something more than financial stability. Even silver tarnishes and fades and will crumble in time, but our souls will go on forever. Either in the presence of The Father in Heaven, cover by the forgiveness of Christ,
Or forever in torment separated from the Light of Love, in the company of the demons in Hell.

It's only a little about survival and stability now. It is so much more about God's children and all our eternal welfare.

May the Peace of God that passes all human understanding be yours here and now and so that may we all be together in Christ in eternity.

Wolve, or Wolvesdad?....brother, the heft of what you just wrote, moved my soul to the point of tears...its prophesy...the forthtelling kind of prophesy...i could PM you with this, but you did just see my sin in the post above to Jon, and i'm not proud of that. i took the bait, and ate the food of the world.

but your words?....i loved them, and i love you, sight unseen....your words carry with them the sweet Frangrance of Messiah....i'm sorry to give forth such a terrible witness....i also thank God for the Comforter, Who convicts one of every word ill written or spoken.

God love you and your kin, neil
ps, feel free to PM if you ever want to. i long for the fellowship.

[sambo]

wolvesdad, Thanks for the reminder of eternity in Christ is more important then worldly things.

[neilgin1]

"The worst is yet to come."

Flashback: Warning: “Watch The Metals, When They Dip. It Will Be A Good Indication That Things Are About To Happen.”

"As of this print the price of gold is reaching fresh two year lows, down nearly 25% from its all time high just six months ago. Though uninformed onlookers and financial pundits may see this as the popping of the proverbial gold bubble, the velocity and scale of the take-down in precious metals suggests that there is a massive assault in the works. According to former Assistant Treasury Secretary Paul Craig Roberts, last Friday’s price drop was the result of some 500 tons of gold being dumped onto paper markets, an amount equal to about $25 Billion dollars worth of the metal. Likewise, silver saw a similar dump and price drop. Moreover, the very same thing is taking place this morning, suggesting that some very large and influential market makers are involved.

Who has that kind of money and can afford to lose it in naked short positions? According to Paul Craig Roberts, “only a central bank that can print it.”

Thus, one must assume that this is not a natural effect of the free market, but rather, a coordinated attack on the global precious metals exchange orchestrated by our very own Federal Reserve, an organization run by a board of directors that includes representatives from some of the world’s largest banking institutions.

What’s most alarming about the collapse of gold and silver is that it was predicted in December of 2012 by a Department of Homeland Security Insider. In an interview with Doug Hagmann at the Northeast Intelligence Network, the insider warned that life for the average America would change drastically, and soon, and that this change would be preceded by various events, one of which is a major dip in precious metals:

They already are in motion. If you’re looking for a date I can’t tell you. Remember, the objectives are the same, but plans, well, they adapt. They exploit. Watch how this fiscal cliff thing plays out. This is the run-up to the next beg economic event.

I can’t give you a date. I can tell you to watch things this spring. Start with the inauguration and go from there. Watch the metals, when they dip. It will be a good indication that things are about to happen. I got that little tidbit from my friend at [REDACTED]

(full interview http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/i ... m_12282012 )

If we were to assume that this 25% dip amounting to some $50 billion just over the last two days could be the the precious metals “dip” referred to by the DHS Insider, then we must likewise assume that some very serious events are on the horizon.

To what end?

That remains to be seen, but if the US government’s war-gaming of economic collapse and civil unrest is any guide, we may be looking at the worst case scenario many have feared – an engineered collapse of our financial and economic systems leading to the centralization of control through implementation of martial law across America.

Sound far-fetched?

Perhaps. Unless of course you’re part of the Congressional membership that was explicitly warned of this very possibility at the height of the 2008 crisis:

Many of us were told in private conversations that if we voted against this bill on Monday, that the sky would fall, the market would drop two or three thousands points the first day, another couple thousand the second day, and a few members were even told that there would be martial law in America if we voted no.

House Representative Brad Sherman (D-California)
Debate on the House Floor, October 2, 2008

Do you really think they saved the system back in 2008?

According to SGT Report, those involved in the take-down of gold and silver may not been done yet, as the unrelenting push against precious metals proves once again that the arrogance of criminal cartels behind global financial market manipulation continues.

We once opined that you should expect exactly such an event - a mega drop in precious metals – to take place and that you’ll hate your gold so much you’ll want to spit on it.

But consider that in the 1970′s, as gold assailed to its eventual all-time highs, it was halved in price at least once over the ten year period that it rose from double digits to over $800 per ounce.

During times of uncertainty, irrational events will occur. This is inevitable.

Don’t let the hype and manipulation change your long-term preparedness plans.

Consider what is money when the system as we know it collapses, and continue to acquire those hard assets that will retain value and barterability.

The worst is yet to come."

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/t ... n_04152013

[68Camaro]

That's the ONE I was looking for! Thanks! Knew I read it somewhere in 2012. Thought I was losing my mind as I couldn't find it.

Thank you!

[Jonflyfish]

Let me put this all very simply...and as one who participated in the futures markets, both on and off floor; as long as man like Jon Corzine, who committed what is akin to the "unpardonable sin" ( trading segregated customer funds, and imploded MF Global) and continues to walk a FREE MAN, then you cannot consider ANY futures market in the United States as a TRUE place of price discovery.

There are too many feed lot operators, too many country grain elevators, legitimate hedgers, who have lost trust in the futures markets in this country.....chief among them...obviously is the silver market.

Anybody can say what they want, defend it, be an apologist for a totally dysfunctional trade entity....but I had the distinct displeasure to have a front row, as the most craven, short sighted greedy men this side of the Atlantic, WRECKED a good market....and that was the Pork Bellies. it might be somewhat of a joke NOW, but back in the day, many many hedgers used the Bellies to conduct business more effieciently....and in the process, they denuded the one commodity that is crucial for mercantilism to WORK....that commodity is TRUST.

There was a time when Bellies were THE speculators market, great liquidity, soild trending attributes, plenty of "action" for adrenalin junkies...late 70's, early 80's?....huge Japanese and Taiwanese money flowing into the Bellies, and some of the those guys just RAPED the Asians, I've seen more illegal trading practices than you can even imagine...and enforcement?

please...non-existent...a license to steal, and steal they did...in the process, they KILLED the market...and that's what going to happen to silver. Maybe somebody wants it DEAD....and then we'll see how you engage in transparent price discovery.

I remember when "Wall Street", the Stone film came out....Stone thought it would be regarded as a cautionary tale, au contraire! ....these guys, us....had lines memorized! Gordon Gecko was a F###ing hero!!! but i'm here to tell you, "greed is NOT good....greed DOES NOT work.....all that kind of headspace and worldview does, is just provide "FOOD" for communism and socialism.

Greed and avarice just lead to klepto-oliogarchy, which is exactly what we see today, when a guy like Jon Corzine walks a free man and its why we have the IMMENSE structural problems we deal with in a dynamic capitalistic society.

that's what I got to say.

I totally disagree. As someone who has for a very long time and continue to participate at many levels in the futures market, I can say that for someone to stand and declare price discovery doesn't exist in the most liquid markets because of Corzine is like saying that the entire physical metals market is a hoax because of tungsten filled gold bars, and to proclaim such as universal truth to that end because it has been said. It's patently false and disingenuous.

I know first hand why certain many commercial companies use the financial markets either being naturally long or short to offset risk, including a no frills airline providing cheaper fares- a benefit to all of their customers and it has everything to do with the original intended purpose of the commercial derivatives market.
I'm away from home working with a very high profile commercial client that is actively hedging in the markets and looking to improve that even further to continue to keep their prices low. This benefits the customer greatly. That is the truth.
Cheers!

oh Jonny Jonny Jonny Fly Fish, you can "totally disagree" until you are blue in the face......till the cows come home, but to jiggle my words around, and hurl the charge "disingenious" MY WAY?.....i didnt quote, "declare price discovery doesn't exist in the most liquid markets because of Corzine" ....what i wrote was (as long as Corzine ) ...."continues to walk a FREE MAN, then you cannot consider ANY futures market in the United States as a TRUE place of price discovery".

big difference in wording there pal....""TRUE place"....."TRUE"....you know that word, right?....its akin to "honest"...or "upright", "clear" ,"transparent".....going further, we can get into "integrity"....the trouble is, that words and concepts such as those, stand in the way of ramping up the year end bonus compensation. In the light of that imperative, concepts like "churn and burn 'em"...or "pump and dump" are the guiding principles.

Please....dont tell me otherwise about the culture, i'm not some wide-eyed ditz you're chatting up in a hotel bar, trying to impress....i talked to TOO MANY guys i know, traders, large accounts, terrified in those early days after Corzine blew up Mann, coz they talked to counsel, hearing that they'll be lucky to see ANYTHING....but sure, after 3 million headaches and nightmares....yeh! they're getting 93 cents on the dollar!!...why the complaining!!!! (im lmao!!!....coz you're atypical of the lifeform found only in the futures industry....awww, man, i didnt mean how that sounded,,,you know what i mean.)

look man, i been out all morning playing on my tractor, and i got a song for you...serious, you're going to like this...you know the Beatles "Here Comes the Sun King"?..well, instead of the words..."heeeereeee cooooomes the Sun King"....we sing "Heeeeereee cooooooomes Jon Fly Fish(x2)......everybody's laughing.....everybody's happy......heeeeeere comes Jon Fllly Fish....quando, etc etc...the Italian part"....its a fricking HOMAGE TO YOU!!! to your total awesomeness....to your omnipotence!.....your brilliance.....i been singing it to the robins, the cattle, maybe some deer heard me...this is for you baby. enjoy and let me say CHEERS!!!!

With comments like "some wide-eyed ditz you're chatting up in a hotel bar" I can only say that you have only resorted to sleeze and slothful drivel. I suspect, unlike you, I don't nor have I ever tipped the bottle. Furthermore, I'm happily married and couldn't stoop to the level of who to "impress" that obviously occupies your mind. Your comments are a disgrace and blasphemy to the god that you reference in your cantankerous frolic. Try to raise the bar to a decent social standard at a minimum, please.

As for the markets- you can talk to your guys all you like. My fortune 500 clients have and continue to demonstrate that the markets ARE empirically evidenced to be tranparent (incremental EPS) and there are $trillions traded as commercial hedge in order to compete on supply cost, which helps customers pay less for products. You can sing about Corzine all you choose. HE is NOT nor was he the exchange. Just another con man unlike any other. The markets have and continue to maintain integrity in price and price discovery over the months and years that you have been fighting against. I won't argue with you, however. The $billions cleared daily in the US futures markets keep humming along and help food makers, airlines, fuel providers and scores of others to keep prices down and control volatility in their cost of goods sold.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

The markets have and continue to maintain integrity

Bwahhhaaahaaahaaa! Tell us another one!

US futures markets...keep prices down and control volatility

There it is!!!

If the markets have and continue to maintain integrity, perhaps you could explain how oil prices were propped up above $100/bbl for years while every storage facility in the world was swimming in the stuff, and tankers were sitting at sea with nowhere to go?

And perhaps you could enlighten me on how algos control volatility. Isn't their primary purpose to create volatility?

[Jonflyfish]

The markets have and continue to maintain integrity

Bwahhhaaahaaahaaa! Tell us another one!

US futures markets...keep prices down and control volatility

There it is!!!

If the markets have and continue to maintain integrity, perhaps you could explain how oil prices were propped up above $100/bbl for years while every storage facility in the world was swimming in the stuff, and tankers were sitting at sea with nowhere to go?

And perhaps you could enlighten me on how algos control volatility. Isn't their primary purpose to create volatility?

If you can offer any real evidence I'll gladly entertain the narrative. Simply referencing price does not say anything about where it should be. Every storage facility was swimming? I suppose you are an industry expert and can then explain why Brent has been trading at such a huge premium to WTI when historically it traded at a significant discount? I don't need to enlighten you about algos and increased/reduced volatility just like you can't prove otherwise. What I can prove is how producers in nearly every industry have effectively hedged to generally reduce the volatility in their balance sheets and earnings predictability. Or, I suppose you'll tell me that the fortune 500 companies exchanging interest rate swaps, jet fuel collars, structured contracts on nearly all food stuffs including 46 grades of corn syrup etc etc doesn't really happen on a daily basis becasue you toss non-credible rubbish out there about swimming in crude at every storage location.

I can also tell you that cargoes full of refined products that were destined for ports in Europe have been showing up off the NY harbor becasue the demand in europe has rapidly dried up.
This has been driving futures markets down rapidly. But, I'm sure it could never be market forces (supply) driving price discovery (offers), right?

Cheers!

[Engineer]

I suppose you are an industry expert and can then explain why Brent has been trading at such a huge premium to WTI when historically it traded at a significant discount?

It doesn't take an expert to figure that out. Commodity deflation was looming, Gaddafi was a big fat target because he was demanding gold for crude. Bombs started flying, and light sweet became more of a rare commodity due to the refineries in Europe being built for sweet rather than sour. These events happened at about the same time oil was ready to crash due to a lack of storage. If you want the data to corroborate, I'm sure you know where to get it.


Now it's your turn:

After the rise in Brent, why did US gas futures decouple from WTI to follow Brent when historically it was the other way around?

And finally, one last question:
Why is it "extortion" when a coin shop holds back inventory to wait for higher prices, but when the futures market makers do the same thing (storing oil offshore in tankers to wait for higher prices), they're "maintaining integrity".

I don't see a difference.

[Jonflyfish]

I suppose you are an industry expert and can then explain why Brent has been trading at such a huge premium to WTI when historically it traded at a significant discount?

It doesn't take an expert to figure that out. Commodity deflation was looming, Gaddafi was a big fat target because he was demanding gold for crude. Bombs started flying, and light sweet became more of a rare commodity due to the refineries in Europe being built for sweet rather than sour. These events happened at about the same time oil was ready to crash due to a lack of storage. If you want the data to corroborate, I'm sure you know where to get it.


Now it's your turn:

After the rise in Brent, why did US gas futures decouple from WTI to follow Brent when historically it was the other way around?

And finally, one last question:
Why is it "extortion" when a coin shop holds back inventory to wait for higher prices, but when the futures market makers do the same thing (storing oil offshore in tankers to wait for higher prices), they're "maintaining integrity".

I don't see a difference.

Um, wrong. WTI is landlocked in the US. It is illegal to export crude oil from the US.
Decouple was simple. WTI has been in great mid continent supply. Brent is waterbourne and so are refined products.
Leads to why the seaway pipeline was reversed to clear out Cushing down to the gulf.
Who is storing tankers offshore, waiting for higher prices?
Cheeers!

[Engineer]

Um, wrong. WTI is landlocked in the US. It is illegal to export crude oil from the US.
Please try again.
Cheeers!

Nice straw man, but the topic was refined products, not crude. Care to take a shot at it, or will you volley with another misdirect?

Who is storing tankers offshore, waiting for higher prices?

He'll take the misdirect for $200, Alex.

You didn't answer the question of why it's not gouging for market makers to store oil offshore to wait for an increase in prices.

[Jonflyfish]

Um, wrong. WTI is landlocked in the US. It is illegal to export crude oil from the US.
Please try again.
Cheeers!

Nice straw man, but the topic was refined products, not crude. Care to take a shot at it, or will you volley with another misdirect?

Brent and WTI, the original question I asked about and that you responded to, are now refined products? If that wan't a "volley with another misdirect" if I've ever seen one LOL
This is what you quoted and replied to-
"I suppose you are an industry expert and can then explain why Brent has been trading at such a huge premium to WTI when historically it traded at a significant discount?"

It doesn't matter that you don't know what yo are talking about when it comes to the simple basics of the basis diffs in crude. What is disturbing is how flippantly folks rattle off BS as if it were the truth becasue they read some rubbish on a website that supports their mental disturbances about markets in general. the Obama admin has been on a smeer campaign since before he took office. Sadly, society has been slowly persuaded to be inclined to feel resentment and anger towards others instead of getting off their arses and being productive. The handout society has hit record levels and the disparity grows...
Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

Um, wrong. WTI is landlocked in the US. It is illegal to export crude oil from the US.
Please try again.
Cheeers!

Nice straw man, but the topic was refined products, not crude. Care to take a shot at it, or will you volley with another misdirect?

Who is storing tankers offshore, waiting for higher prices?

He'll take the misdirect for $200, Alex.

You didn't answer the question of why it's not gouging for market makers to store oil offshore to wait for an increase in prices.

Please go back and read. The original topic was Brent vs WTI. Your response was a misdirect about what refined products?
As for the tankers offshore. Where is/was this holdout storage at and again are you now talking about refined products or are you referencing crude when it spiked to $147 and the market responded with supply and crushed the price to below $40 wit ha glut of supply in late 2008?
The NY harbout is NOW seeing a lot of refined products tankers coming in from Europe where they were turned away. Thus, the prices have cratered
You still need to clarify your "refined products" misdirect as well as the WTI vs BRENT.
Your narrative is random and all over the place without being accountable for your initial and wildly incorrect response about WTI vs Brent.
And BTW- Theoretically, a dealer of gold, silver, crude (WTI or Brent- and no these are not refined products, middle and top distillates (these are refined products LOL) who holds back supply for whatever reason is not gouging anyone. They are simply choosing to not participate in the market. So to answer the hypothetical question that you raised about holding supply back can't be gouging. Being the LCS charging one unreasonable and unethical premium to one unsuspecting customer and offering much lower to the next is gouging. No different than the local gas station who hears that his competitor down the street is offline due to a technical glitch (like American Airlines) so he decides to charge +$2.50 higher for gasoline i.e. $6/gallon. that is also gouging..
I think price gouging is obvious when it is seen. It is anti-trust and unethical. Coin dealers who are unhedged night be taking it in the shorts but their poor business practices shouldn't be compensated by the price gouging we see going on.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

The original topic was Brent vs WTI. Your response was a misdirect about what refined products?
As for the tankers offshore. Where is this at? Are you referencing when crude was $147 so the market responded with supply and crushed the price to below $40? in 2008?
You still need to clarify your "refined products" misdirect as well as the WTI vs BRENT.
Your narrative is random and all over without being accountable for your initial and wildly incorrect response about WTI vs Brent.
Cheers!

The original topic is the price of silver, which you have successfully derailed by arguing with anybody who dared reply to your posts. I'm done helping you derail these threads, as it is clear to me that you will use every opportunity to stir discontent and/or steer the discussion away from the price of metals rather than contribute to the discussion with pertinent information.

Cheers!

[Jonflyfish]

The original topic was Brent vs WTI. Your response was a misdirect about what refined products?
As for the tankers offshore. Where is this at? Are you referencing when crude was $147 so the market responded with supply and crushed the price to below $40? in 2008?
You still need to clarify your "refined products" misdirect as well as the WTI vs BRENT.
Your narrative is random and all over without being accountable for your initial and wildly incorrect response about WTI vs Brent.
Cheers!

The original topic is the price of silver, which you have successfully derailed by arguing with anybody who dared reply to your posts. I'm done helping you derail these threads, as it is clear to me that you will use every opportunity to stir discontent and/or steer the discussion away from the price of metals rather than contribute to the discussion with pertinent information.

Cheers!

Wow- that was a weak comeback after accusing me of changing the subject when you buried yourself with BS answers about WTI vs Brent then YOU claimed that it was about refined products.
You have been successful at wasting a lot of time with a narrative designed to throw out accusations, then wiggle out with misdirected, confused, unknowledgeable and patently false answers and an accusation of misdirecting form the thread topic, which you led astray. No need to reply. You have already shown your (shallow)depth of knowledge along with very deep BS.
Cheers!

[Engineer]

Wow- that was a weak comeback after accusing me of changing the subject when you buried yourself with BS answers about WTI vs Brent then YOU claimed that it was about refined products.
You have been successful at wasting a lot of time with a narrative designed to throw out accusations, then wiggle out with misdirected, confused, unknowledgeable and patently false answers and an accusation of misdirecting form the thread topic, which you led astray. No need to reply. You have already shown your (shallow)depth of knowledge along with very deep BS.
Cheers!

One more reply here, and then I'm done.

I had no BS answers about WTI vs Brent. The change in price ratio occurred when Libya was bombed (although low sulfur diesel requirements added to the equation), and then I posed a question to you about refined products, which I will now retract to keep the topic simple enough for you to follow without distraction.

Regarding stored oil, you can find a little information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil-storage_trade
You still have not answered my question on why a coin dealer holding back some inventory due to a drop in spot is extortion, while Goldman, et. al. holding back deliveries of oil is, in your words, "maintaining integrity".

Can you answer that one simple question without dancing around the issue? My guess is no, but I'll be happy if you can prove me wrong.