Man, why haven't people learned yet?

[brian0918]

The picture of the item stats what it is clearly. Unethical would be trying to sell those items without having mills/clad/plated on it.

No, that would be fraud - i.e., illegal. We are talking about ethics, and not all things unethical are fraudulent or untrue, but may still be deceptive. It all depends on the reasons behind the seller's choices.

[Neckro]

As I see it, he's just being a capitalist.

[scrapper2010]

Ethics is relative, ebay is responsible for drawing the line in the sand. We can all think of this person how we wish, but the seller could probably give two craps what we think of him, so who cares if it's "ethical" or not. It's ebay's job to decide where the line in the sand is, because given free rein, people will prey upon the naive.

[brian0918]

who cares if it's "ethical" or not

You do. Here's how: let's say you want to buy something on eBay, and there are several sellers. Then you notice that one of the sellers is this guy. You re-read his listing, and find nothing misleading. But you still have the knowledge that it is from this seller. Would you buy it from him, or go through another seller? And why?

[psi]

What is being sold is a 1 troy oz bar containing a much smaller amount of .999 silver, not "1 Troy Oz 999 Fine Silver" in the form of a "100 mils Art bar" which could very well still be pure silver even if you happened to be familiar with "mils". A "mil" is also a unit of length, so 100 mils could well be referring to the bar's total thickness (i.e. 1/10 of an inch). The "1 Troy Oz 999 Fine Silver" part that is more easily understood is clear enough and is simply not true from what I understand.

[beauanderos]

who cares if it's "ethical" or not

You do. Here's how: let's say you want to buy something on eBay, and there are several sellers. Then you notice that one of the sellers is this guy. You re-read his listing, and find nothing misleading. But you still have the knowledge that it is from this seller. Would you buy it from him, or go through another seller? And why?

Ebay is based on trust and reputation, that's the whole point of the feedback program. Without trust, everything falls apart. To answer the question, "no, I would not buy from this guy because I no longer trust him or his regular listings."

[scrapper2010]

who cares if it's "ethical" or not

You do. Here's how: let's say you want to buy something on eBay, and there are several sellers. Then you notice that one of the sellers is this guy. You re-read his listing, and find nothing misleading. But you still have the knowledge that it is from this seller. Would you buy it from him, or go through another seller? And why?

Yes, I absolutely agree. I meant that obviously the seller doesn't care if it's ethical. So he is thinking "who cares?" foolishly no doubt.

[strikeaxe]

fraud /frôd/ 

Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain

A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities

INTENT is clearly fraud. If his intent was simply to provide a nice looking "art bar" then he should state the actual silver content in a suitable unit of measure, or state that the melt or metal content of the bar is equal to that amount which is silver and that amount which is not or less then silver.

If someone wishes to test the theory then make a listing that is clear and honest using these same fraudulent bars and see where it closes.

[theo]

As I see it, he's just being a capitalist.

I disagree. Adam Smith believed that adhereing to high moral standards was a critical part of the free market. Fraud, afterall, is a form of oppression.

Clearly unethical, definetely misleading. The fact that it says `1 troy oz' is borderline fradulent. The uninformed buyer probably thinks they're getting a bargain, but is in fact getting ripped off. I think Ray's assumption that the buyers are probably lower class is probably correct. Any affluent serious investor would most likely not fall for it.

Great way to make money sure, but at the end of day is gonna be hard on the conscience.

It reminds me of some threads back about how to deal with old men/women who have a bunch of old silver dollars, who are unaware of their EXACT market value. You could rip them off, but it could come back to haunt you.

I basically agree. Having said that, I did pick up a few these bars myself at $8 each (shipped); and I have to say they look very convincing. However, they weigh 28.4 grams on my digital scale, so they are a little less than one troy ounce. Anyway, they make great (if a little expensive) decoys.

[goldsilverpro]

Definitely unethical the way he has it listed. Any person that can't see this would not be someone I would ever do business with.

The term "mil" has 2 very different meanings in the US. The correct meaning is 1/1000" = 1 thousandth of an inch. Unfortunately, in later years, it has incorrectly become slang for 1 millionth of an inch. In plating, base metal plating, such as Cu, Ni, or Zn, is usually measured in mils = thousandths of an inch. For precious metals plating, the thickness is most always measured in millionths of an inch. It this case, it has to represent 100 millionths of an inch. The main reason is that, with 1/10" of plating, it's virtually impossible to get a final smooth surface like we see on the bar. In any case, the detail on the bar would be essentially obliterated at that plating thickness. So, in this case, the thickness of silver is .000100" = 100 millionths of an inch.

A bar of copper 1/8" x 1.07" x 1.6" would have a weight very close to 1 troy oz. The surface area (totaling all surfaces) on this bar is about 4 square inches and, therefore, there would be a total of about .0004 cubic inches of silver. A cubic inch of silver weighs 5.5 tr.oz. Therefore, there is 5.5 x .0004 = .0022 tr.oz. of silver on the bar. At a $37.11 spot, the total silver value of the bar is a little over 8 cents.

[VWBEAMER]

At least this thread has given me a good idea of who I would want to trade with if i ever have to...

[argent_pur]

If you read the whole ad, you should realize you are not getting a full troy ounce of pure silver. I don't make excuses for buyer ignorance...the reason we don't buy things like that and they do is that we took the time to get educated and they didn't. Know what you're buying, period. At least "100 mills" is stamped right on the bar. If you don't know what "mills" means, don't buy the thing! I have a much bigger problem with "copy" bullion coins, personally. I think it should be illegal to stamp on a coin an amount of precious metal that isn't present.

Is he misrepresenting what he's selling? Intent is hard to prove. He should be telling buyers how much silver they are buying (measured in troy oz.--the industry standard), as any reputable dealer would. He has no issue using troy ounces to describe the total weight of the bar, so he should have no issue describing the precious metal content in the same unit of measurement. The fact that he doesn't suggests to me he's intentionally trying to obfuscate. Both parties are at fault here, there's nothing wrong with that conclusion. The seller shouldn't be doing what he's doing, and the buyer should take responsibility for educating himself, just as all of us do.

[goldsilverpro]

Since May 2, this slimeball has sold 17 of these nearly worthless trinkets at an average of about $45 each. I would bet that every buyer thought he or she were getting 1 oz of 999 silver and everyone of them were deceived and robbed of their money. There was bad feedback from only 1 guy (he paid $49), who said:
"NOT "1 troy oz 999 fine silver" but worthless PLATED metal. JUNK!"

The intrinsic total value of the Cu, Ni, and Ag in a bar is about 40 cents and they're selling for over 100 times that amount. I'm totally convinced that the intent of the seller was to write the copy so that the buyer thought he was getting an oz of silver.

Here's what the copy reads:
"Up for bids a 1 Troy Oz .999 Fine Silver 100 Mills Clad Art Bar. Low Start Bid Free Shipping and No Reserve.Great investment for the future or the next generation.Thank for stopping by and have a nice day."
The phrase, "Great investment for the future or the next generation", is a blatant BS lie. The prices of Cu, Ni, and Ag would have to increase more than 100 fold just to break even.

When speaking of thickness, at least in the US, the word "mil" has one recognized definition - .001". As an example, check any box of trash bags and you will see the plastic thickness given in mils. The box I have says "1.1 mils". That's .0011" and not .0000011".

[brian0918]

Everyone should send messages to the past buyers, letting them know they were ripped off. I sent a few, but ebay limits the number of messages you can send in a day.

[VWBEAMER]

I thought of that, but why Bum them out?

Everyone should send messages to the past buyers, letting them know they were ripped off. I sent a few, but ebay limits the number of messages you can send in a day.

[brian0918]

I thought of that, but why Bum them out?

Maybe they'll open cases with ebay, and get the guy kicked off the site, or at least get his feedback degraded.