Silver starting to move

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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Recyclersteve » Thu Sep 04, 2025 3:33 am

pmbug wrote:I for one am excited. It looks like the silversqueeze that I've been anticipating since May of last year is finally starting to happen. The signs are everywhere:
  • EFP spreads starting to blow out again
  • lease rates blowing out again
  • SLV share lease rates blowing out again
  • SLV inventory being drawn down (presumably from folks redeeming borrowed SLV shares)
  • PSLV premium to NAV tightening
  • scarcity of 1,000 toz LGD bars available for retail consumption (Perth Mint hasn't sold any to the public in months)
  • COMEX swap dealer (bullion bank) short position blowing out
  • COMEX deliveries in 2025 are a large increase over 2024 - across all months - not just "delivery months"
And of course, the biggest signal is the futures and spot prices moving up strongly on a Friday.


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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby pmbug » Thu Sep 04, 2025 4:57 am

Recyclersteve wrote:...
GREAT post. I’m impressed with your level of knowledge and I’m not easily impressed!


Thanks. Some things have changed since I posted that:
  • EFP spreads starting to blow out again - Yes, happening again
  • lease rates blowing out again - I have not seen any recent report on lease rates
  • SLV share lease rates blowing out again - I have not seen any recent report on lease rates
  • SLV inventory being drawn down (presumably from folks redeeming borrowed SLV shares) - The opposite is now true - SLV (et al ETFs) inventory has grown over August
  • PSLV premium to NAV tightening - still tight, but now a discount around -2% or so
  • scarcity of 1,000 toz LGD bars available for retail consumption (Perth Mint hasn't sold any to the public in months) - Perth Mint has resumed public sales
  • COMEX swap dealer (bullion bank) short position blowing out - Swap dealers short position has held more or less steady around 70k contracts all month
  • COMEX deliveries in 2025 are a large increase over 2024 - across all months - not just "delivery months" - still true, but correlation to actual withdrawals is not clear

Recyclersteve wrote:Several potential catalysts for silver ...
What other potential catalysts do people see?


pmbug wrote:"Tariffs, tariffs, tariffs!" - Jan Brady

Rob posits that the current EFP spread blowout in silver is a latent effect of Trump not following through on his social media proclamation that an Executive Order clarifying precious metals exempt status from tariffs would be forthcoming.

The most recent silver stock reports from the COMEX have provided no indication that there is any issue with the inflow/importation of silver, but Rob says this is just a pipeline observation.

If he is correct, we should start witnessing a dramatic diminishing of inflows to the COMEX and perhaps an even more extreme EFP spread very soon.

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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Cu Penny Hoarder » Thu Sep 04, 2025 10:16 am

The Spring Hill, FL LCS is burning almost everything that comes through his door, including breaking slabbed MS-63 $20 gold eagles.

Most of the silver that's getting melted is being turned into COMEX bars or US mint planchets.

You're going have serious sellers remorse if sell your junk 90% coins. It's going to be much more rare someday. If you're in a desperate need for cash sell your generic silver instead.

Some great info/insight on the retail PM market here...

https://youtu.be/XEZHSAVQVts
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby 68Camaro » Thu Sep 04, 2025 11:48 am

Interesting insight into a wholesaler. I have one near me, a large operation, but he isn't this transparent. Wow, so almost everything is just going for melt, and largely being turned into Comex bars. Yeah, if you've got it, hold it. This is not a great time to sell, unless you need the cash.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby silverflake » Thu Sep 04, 2025 3:06 pm

Regarding potential catalysts, consider this. In 1980 when silver moved toward $50, the average person only had one way to "play" silver and that was going to their LCS and buying silver coins which in that day meant basically 90% silver US coins. There weren't Eagles or Maples or Perth mint stuff etc. Also, common folk did not buy mining stocks nor did many people have access or resources to buy futures contracts. Thus the run up had fewer participants and few avenues to partake.

Fast forward to today. Now, there are markets world wide open to a MASSIVE amount of people across the world who, when they decide to jump into this market will have ETFs, commission free access to mining stocks, not to mention futures and options and multiple big bullion dealers across the world. And, knowing there are more people, more markets, more products, keep in mind that there is waaaaaay more industrial demand and a yearly supply shortage. Finally, the dollar has lost, how much value since 1980? I'm not an expert and I don't have a crystal ball but when the public finally jumps in, math tells me that price will be pressured higher than $50 an ounce. So it would seem.

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Last edited by silverflake on Thu Sep 04, 2025 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby silverflake » Thu Sep 04, 2025 3:13 pm

To add to the list of catalysts, since it's high in 1980, just about every asset imaginable has made new all time highs (many have made multiple all time highs). This includes everything from the Dow 30, SP500, gold, oil, copper, sugar, coffee....

What hasn't made a new high since 1980?

SILVER
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby shinnosuke » Thu Sep 04, 2025 7:54 pm

That’s right, Flake. If silver weren’t so suppressed, I should have been able to retire my bloodline with my stack. Alas, not yet. Especially when adjusting the price for inflation.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby neilgin1 » Thu Sep 04, 2025 9:47 pm

[quote="Cu Penny Hoarder"]

You're going have serious sellers remorse if sell your junk 90% coins. It's going to be much more rare someday.


thats the way i been trading this for a long time, trading one sided, its a buy and hold deal, finest rolls, 10 face of 90's;;;;Penny, its not that we agree, coz i would be trading my play, not needing anybody to agree, but when somebody elses does, you think, okay, i'm not alone, some else sees the same value, best to you shipmate, n
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Cu Penny Hoarder » Fri Sep 05, 2025 11:46 am

silverflake wrote:To add to the list of catalysts, since it's high in 1980, just about every asset imaginable has made new all time highs (many have made multiple all time highs). This includes everything from the Dow 30, SP500, gold, oil, copper, sugar, coffee....

What hasn't made a new high since 1980?

SILVER


And notice how the 8-11am silver slam-downs are not working as well as they used to.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Cu Penny Hoarder » Fri Sep 05, 2025 11:48 am

neilgin1 wrote:
Cu Penny Hoarder wrote:
You're going have serious sellers remorse if sell your junk 90% coins. It's going to be much more rare someday.


thats the way i been trading this for a long time, trading one sided, its a buy and hold deal, finest rolls, 10 face of 90's;;;;Penny, its not that we agree, coz i would be trading my play, not needing anybody to agree, but when somebody elses does, you think, okay, i'm not alone, some else sees the same value, best to you shipmate, n


Whatever you gotta do my friend. I'm a buy and long term holder myself. Maybe let a a few 100oz bars go when it hits $50... maybe.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby pmbug » Fri Sep 05, 2025 2:55 pm

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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby 68Camaro » Sat Sep 06, 2025 8:27 am

pmbug wrote:I wrote an article this morning:

https://www.pmbug.com/threads/diving-de ... tery.8406/


Interesting set of stats. However I can't make much out of the difference between US processing capacity and the amount of new Comex inventory this year, as I have to presume that processors outside of the US can also create Comex bars. Since the US is only tbe 9th largest silver producer and the top several dwarf our production by more than an order of magnitude, my conclusion would have to be that the bars are coming from outside the country, from those whose bar capacity also dwarfs ours.

It was interesting to see the comex additions by month, as the numbers were very large early in the year, and have been tapering off since. That makes me think that silver from elsewhere was converted to comex bars, including LGD bars, but that the supply to create new comex bars is getting increasingly difficult to source, globally.
In the game of Woke, the goal posts can be moved at any moment, the penalties will apply retroactively and claims of fairness will always lose out to the perpetual right to claim offense.... Bret Stephens
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby pmbug » Sat Sep 06, 2025 10:31 am

68Camaro wrote:... However I can't make much out of the difference between US processing capacity and the amount of new Comex inventory this year, as I have to presume that processors outside of the US can also create Comex bars. ...


That's the issue with the Swiss import numbers. Aside from Swiss imports, there is still some unresolved issue with whether or not silver bars are tariff exempt:

https://x.com/pmbug/status/1964286439408968116
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby silverflake » Sun Sep 07, 2025 7:13 pm

So the Fed has an inflation calculator and I gave it a try putting in $850 in 1980 (roughly the gold high) and it spat out $3324 as current equivalent ( pretty darn close). But for silver I plugged in $50 in 1980 and it tells me the equivalent 2025 dollars is.....$195!

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us ... calculator


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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Lemon Thrower » Mon Sep 08, 2025 5:25 am

$41
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby JobIII » Mon Sep 08, 2025 10:38 am

Just seeing this as well. 41 and then some. :shock:
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Recyclersteve » Tue Sep 09, 2025 3:52 am

silverflake wrote:So the Fed has an inflation calculator and I gave it a try putting in $850 in 1980 (roughly the gold high) and it spat out $3324 as current equivalent ( pretty darn close). But for silver I plugged in $50 in 1980 and it tells me the equivalent 2025 dollars is.....$195!

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us ... calculator


STACK! While it's cheap!


I tried $50 in 1980 vs. now and used Google. It said $196, almost exactly what the govt. said.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby 68Camaro » Tue Sep 09, 2025 6:11 am

Recyclersteve wrote:
silverflake wrote:So the Fed has an inflation calculator and I gave it a try putting in $850 in 1980 (roughly the gold high) and it spat out $3324 as current equivalent ( pretty darn close). But for silver I plugged in $50 in 1980 and it tells me the equivalent 2025 dollars is.....$195!

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us ... calculator


STACK! While it's cheap!


I tried $50 in 1980 vs. now and used Google. It said $196, almost exactly what the govt. said.


The ratio from a given calculator will be the same no matter what starting number you put in, in this case, 3.9.

Given that silver is undervalued now, while it was grossly overvalued in 1980, I'm not sure that the inflation ratio creates an accurate updated value. What matters more are all the other factors that have influenced price and value. A better representation might be the gold silver ratio, though there you also get to argue about which ratio is "correct". It is definitely too high now, upper 80s. But should a more correct ratio be 60, 40, 15 or some other number? I think most would agree that it should be at least 60 if not lower. At a gsr of 60, silver should be 50% higher than the current price, or $60 ish. At gsr of 30, silver would be about $120. At the current value of the dollar I think those are the upper and lower bounds for what the price of silver should be.
In the game of Woke, the goal posts can be moved at any moment, the penalties will apply retroactively and claims of fairness will always lose out to the perpetual right to claim offense.... Bret Stephens
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby silverflake » Tue Sep 09, 2025 7:22 am

68Camaro, I agree. So many factors (many mentioned in this thread) affecting the value of silver beyond just the decay of the dollars value. Keep in mind too that the $50 value that i used was from the very end of a bull run. In other words, it was an extreme. However I personally feel that right now, regardless of inflation calculators and past performance, silver is undervalued. Will it hit $195? I have no clue but I think when the nominal value of $50 arrives, it may only be a temporary hurdle.

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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Lemon Thrower » Tue Sep 09, 2025 11:39 am

68Camaro wrote:Given that silver is undervalued now, while it was grossly overvalued in 1980, I'm not sure that the inflation ratio creates an accurate updated value. What matters more are all the other factors that have influenced price and value. A better representation might be the gold silver ratio, though there you also get to argue about which ratio is "correct". It is definitely too high now, upper 80s. But should a more correct ratio be 60, 40, 15 or some other number? I think most would agree that it should be at least 60 if not lower. At a gsr of 60, silver should be 50% higher than the current price, or $60 ish. At gsr of 30, silver would be about $120. At the current value of the dollar I think those are the upper and lower bounds for what the price of silver should be.


Silver in 1980 at $50 was a GSR of 15, but then gold fell too.

Silver occurs in the Earth's crust in a ratio to gold of about 15:1, and silver was exchangeable to gold at a ratio of about 15:1 under the coinage act of 1792. For most of history, it was exchangeable for gold at 12:1, and then 15-16 to 1 after the discovery of large amounts of silver in the New World.

I'm not making a forecast, just explaining that there is a basis for 15. To make a forecast, one would have to understand why the GSR hasn't been at 15 for the past 100 years except briefly. Manipulation? The fact that silver hasn't been a monetary metal in the U.S. since 1964, and many other countries since the 1870s?

Most central banks hold gold, not silver, because silver is too bulky, difficult to move, and store. Interesting, an electronic form of money that I won't name eclipsed silver in global market value recently, perhaps because its not bulky and easy to store and move. Perhaps this is why the price of silver has not kept up with inflation while other assets are beathing inflation?
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby 68Camaro » Tue Sep 09, 2025 4:14 pm

I suspect the increase in gsr started with the pullback in use of silver for coinage for smaller denominations, combined with the increased use, and gradual - even if grudging - acceptance of paper currency (initially backed, before the backing was removed). Something being rare doesn't automatically make it desirable, nor is value automatically assigned in proportion to its rarity. When it stopped being used as coinage, and was too impractical to be held by central banks, the value of silver relative to gold really declined.

Silver's greatest value in modern times is industrial use, and in some cases it is essentially irreplaceable in those uses. As demand, driven by industrial use, outpaces production, we will get new updated price discovery. I can't predict what that future gsr will be, beyond what I said earlier.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby shinnosuke » Wed Sep 10, 2025 12:09 am

I asked Grok how many ounces of silver are held by JP Morgan. The response was less than I thought, perhaps because I read a newsletter that quotes Ted Butler often.

Grok says...
Estimates of JP Morgan's pure silver holdings vary across sources and are subject to change, with figures ranging from around 55 million to over 700 million ounces, though some claims are speculative or outdated. Here are key points from available information:COMEX Warehouse Holdings: As of recent reports, JP Morgan holds approximately 133 million ounces of silver in COMEX warehouses. This figure is cited in multiple sources, including a December 2023 CME Group report, and reflects their registered silver stockpile, which has grown significantly since 2011 when they held nearly zero ounces.

SLV ETF Custodianship: JP Morgan is the custodian for the iShares Silver Trust (SLV), which holds over 338 million ounces of silver bullion. While JP Morgan manages this silver, it belongs to the ETF investors, not JP Morgan directly.

Speculative Estimates: Some analysts, like Theodore Butler, have speculated that JP Morgan’s total physical silver holdings could be as high as 675–700 million ounces, including both COMEX inventories and other physical silver (e.g., melted US and Canadian minted coins). These claims are controversial and lack definitive proof.

Historical Context: Since acquiring Bear Stearns in 2008, which had significant short positions in silver futures, JP Morgan has been accumulating physical silver. By 2012, their holdings were reported at 55 million ounces, growing steadily over the years.

Conclusion: The most reliable figure for JP Morgan’s direct physical silver holdings in COMEX warehouses is around 133 million ounces as of late 2023. Claims of 600–700 million ounces are speculative and may include silver held for SLV or other unverified sources. Exact numbers can fluctuate due to market activity, and no single source provides a definitive total for all of JP Morgan’s holdings. For the most current data, checking CME Group’s COMEX warehouse reports or JP Morgan’s official statements would be necessary.

Note: Some sources allege market manipulation by JP Morgan, citing their large physical holdings alongside futures market activities. These claims, while widely discussed, are debated and should be approached critically.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby 68Camaro » Fri Sep 12, 2025 11:02 am

Guess I'll be the first to note that silver is now over $42 (again). I'm looking forward to a close over $50.
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Re: Silver starting to move

Postby Lemon Thrower » Fri Sep 12, 2025 3:39 pm

68Camaro wrote:I suspect the increase in gsr started with the pullback in use of silver for coinage for smaller denominations, combined with the increased use, and gradual - even if grudging - acceptance of paper currency (initially backed, before the backing was removed). Something being rare doesn't automatically make it desirable, nor is value automatically assigned in proportion to its rarity. When it stopped being used as coinage, and was too impractical to be held by central banks, the value of silver relative to gold really declined.

Silver's greatest value in modern times is industrial use, and in some cases it is essentially irreplaceable in those uses. As demand, driven by industrial use, outpaces production, we will get new updated price discovery. I can't predict what that future gsr will be, beyond what I said earlier.


Not wrong, but it started in the 1870s when the people around the world who control the money de-monetized silver in most countries.
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