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Hello all, new poster here. anyways been following all the silver craze from some time now. Like most people I did a fair amount of research on the topic before even considered buying. I like many people was (until recently) under the impression that 90% 'junk' could be used in a SHTF situation for BARTER. Upon watching a fairly recent video on youtube, A gentleman explained how infact under 'CURRENT' law it is 'ILLEGAL' to BARTER with 90% silver. This means that if you attempted to BARTER with a 90% you could face up to '5 YEARS!' in prison folks. It is based on some law which considers it 'FRADULENT INTENT', because infact the face value of that 90% coin is a ('dime, quarter, halve, etc.) This gentleman in fact claims to have spoken with the US MINT so he seems credible. Apparently this still means 90% will still hold its 'INVESTMENT' value. I repeat it is *CURRENTLY ILLEGAL to barter with. The gentleman also claimed that starting Jan. 1st 2012 Coin shops will be considered FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS (e.g. banks) and from then on legally required to report any purchases and items sold (up to $600) to the IRS. He also briefly mentioned something about how he personally stayed away from ASE's and other government issued 'COINS' (as opposed to generic 'rounds') since POTENTIALLY if the price sky rockets, the coins will LEGALLY only be worth their face value (e.g. $1) Unlikely but a possibility nonetheless. Apparently private minted rounds dont carry this risk since they dont have any legal tender value attached to them... I'll link the the 2 part video below. PLEASE take the time to watch.

part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3po0Vare-M

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouBRmJcguVs


Defintely something to chew on. Please watch the video and respond with any feedback/ correct if I am wrong at any point in this post.

Best

SORRY WATCH THIS PART ALSO!

The gentleman talks about his phone call to the US Mint.

http://www.youtube.com/user/cvenzke410# ... 9VUkF45SVA

I would melt them before spending them at face....thats legal

Well actually I know a guy that would melt them for me

@ Rodebaugh

Thats very true, and may seem like common sense to many. But I think that a LARGE number of people are under the impression that pre '64 'junk' coinage could be used in a barter situation, for the metal content, not the face value. Apparently this is VERY ILLEGAL with a possible prison sentence of 5 years & $10,000+ in fines.

If we ever get to the point of bartering I don't think you are going to have to worry about the Feds.

RxForPain wrote:If we ever get to the point of bartering I don't think you are going to have to worry about the Feds.

If we get a TSHTF scenario where we are using silver coins for barter, it seems to me quite unlikely that there would be any cohesive form of government left at that point, certainly not one that could enforce unreported transactions between private individuals and punish the "criminals." Sounds to me more like disinformation/propaganda... what will they come up with next?

What do you guys think about his claim about gov. issued bulllion coins, potentially having a price control as opposed to generic bullion rounds etc. ??

I would be glad to take the nervous young gentleman's 90% off his hands at face value.

I agree with what has been posted already about a lack of Feds in a SHTF scenario. For me, the primary reason for hoarding PM and base metal is not preparation for SHTF. It is a storage of wealth first, a means of survival last.

The issuing of 1099's in 2012 is old news and will not only affect coin and bullion shops. Hopefully this will be repealed in 2011.

"http://www.youtube.com/user/cvenzke410# ... 9VUkF45SVA" look at the background at this link..... Me thinks he works for sunshine minting inc. Melt your coins; pretty simple. You pay less premium for "junk" silver then for the pretty bars and rounds from private mints. JMHO. Buy the pretty stuff if it suits your fancy; leave the junk out there for me to buy

beauanderos wrote:

RxForPain wrote:If we ever get to the point of bartering I don't think you are going to have to worry about the Feds.

If we get a TSHTF scenario where we are using silver coins for barter, it seems to me quite unlikely that there would be any cohesive form of government left at that point, certainly not one that could enforce unreported transactions between private individuals and punish the "criminals." Sounds to me more like disinformation/propaganda... what will they come up with next?

Agreed. If there is a currency collapse, where, and how will the government pay for their agents to be combing the streets to make sure people aren't bartering 90% silver coinage for silver content and not face value?? This guy is full of it. You're not supposed to do a lot of things... and a lot of people do those "things" anyway. Lets look past the curtain. My eyes are wide open, not wide shut.

When the government goes back to using $'s as defined by the Constitution then maybe I'll pay attention.

Everyone brings up great points. I am still curious on peoples thoughts about govt. issued coins (ASE, Maples, Philharmonics) as opposed to generic rounds? Do you think a situation could every arise that your ASE is only worth what the gov. says it is (according to this guy b/c of third party liabilities) or is that bs?

Coin shops, travel agencies, and a long list of other unlikely businesses already were considered "Financial Institutions" by federal law before the recent Healthcare takeover law.

The new thing is to require everyone as of 2012 to issues 1099s. Do a bit of searching on "structuring" and other financial terms. There's a LOT of law out there and it isn't for the benefit of the people. Be careful. Some of those laws explicitly remove the requirement that the prosecution prove intent to violate the law, intent to do harm, or awareness that the action was illegal.

Isn't an ASE technically only worth those values now if used for legal currency? Yet they sell them for silver content value? And you can sell them for their silver content? Without prosecution? Yet bartering makes you a criminal? This contradiction makes me think these laws are bull[excrement] in the first place. If [shucks] hits the fan, you'll be able to barter your ASE's for their face value. Your paper money will be worth [shucks]. But how will we know the value of the silver at that time? If we are talking economic collapse, where are the silver values going to come from in the first place? Wall Street will be dead. The whole idea of 90%junk for bartering is people ACTUALLY want silver, not the [shucks] coins the mint pumps out now. Try bartering with a copper/nickel quarter and some will laugh in your face. At that point it's not the fact of the silver value, it's the fact that it has a face value printed on it, and the KNOWN of 90% silver, or .999 for ASE's. Hence you can feed your family. Right now we only care about the silver value. That guys third video contradicted his first two. Just strike what you heard from him from your memory. It was crap info.

If price controls of silver were put into place, then it wouldn't really matter in the first place. That would be the ultimate FU to millions of silver hoarders across the US.... I'm not really sure I see this happening. It would expose and validate the speculation of the pyramid scheme that the FR and the JP Morg have been playing with the FRN's and world currencies; even though it's obvious to a blind squirrel what's going on with the Bernank. The illusion of a free market economy is being kept, and we are just supposed to act like little minions and go with what our criminal government tells us. One day the mirror is going to break, and we will see what's on the other side. This guy is just drumming up fear to drive you to buy sunshine mint bars and rounds IMHO.

HOGWASH...

If it were true all coin dealers would be guilty.

Don't call it Barter, call it "like-kind-exchange" (Hows that for a fancy, legal, tax wording euphemism?)

Or, just "sell" the coins by agreeing to a price, and then "buy" the goods at that same price. That makes it a "wash" sale and not bartering.

Whatever, Bartering is not illegal, as long as you report any obligated taxes owed in the transaction.

The mint is already guilty of selling ASE's above face value, so the govt. is prevented from prosecution by the principle of "estoppel"

I could go on all day...

I would not worry about barter, personally. But do what you will.

Remember, the Fed. Agent attempting to enforce any law like that has to keep one thing in his mind, and one thing only:

"Do you feel lucky? Well do ya, Punk?"


Chances are, his demand to arrest will be answered with a fusillade of hot, fast, lead.

With the end result being another sack of meat to fertilize the SHTF garden.

jerry278 wrote:Everyone brings up great points. I am still curious on peoples thoughts about govt. issued coins (ASE, Maples, Philharmonics) as opposed to generic rounds? Do you think a situation could every arise that your ASE is only worth what the gov. says it is (according to this guy b/c of third party liabilities) or is that bs?

Fair market value on any product is what the buyer and seller agree upon. IF the SHTF, obeying obscure government laws will not be on the horizon. OR, if that scenario plays out, the price of goods and services would have to fall back into line of pre-1964 prices. A loaf of bread would be about 25 - 35 cents, a bottle of pop would be 10 cents, etc.

Anyone can melt silver in the same pot he melts lead for his bullets.

If we ever get to that point as others have said, no one will enforce any laws. Bartering has been the vehicle for trade for thousands of years. One little law on the books isnt going to stop anything. I feel most likely the government will be more worried about rationing of goods and the barter will be mostly in the black market. And if the govt is at that point they are not stopping the black market.

NiBullionCu wrote:HOGWASH...

If it were true all coin dealers would be guilty.

Don't call it Barter, call it "like-kind-exchange" (Hows that for a fancy, legal, tax wording euphemism?)

Or, just "sell" the coins by agreeing to a price, and then "buy" the goods at that same price. That makes it a "wash" sale and not bartering.

Whatever, Bartering is not illegal, as long as you report any obligated taxes owed in the transaction.

The mint is already guilty of selling ASE's above face value, so the govt. is prevented from prosecution by the principle of "estoppel"

I could go on all day...

I would not worry about barter, personally. But do what you will.

Solid post.....you better be a lawyer.....if not ......time to go to school for it.

DirtyFingers wrote:I would be glad to take the nervous young gentleman's 90% off his hands at face value.

I agree with what has been posted already about a lack of Feds in a SHTF scenario. For me, the primary reason for hoarding PM and base metal is not preparation for SHTF. It is a storage of wealth first, a means of survival last.

The issuing of 1099's in 2012 is old news and will not only affect coin and bullion shops. Hopefully this will be repealed in 2011.

I am still being told by several dealers, as late as this past Sunday, December 19, 2010, that the law goes into effect on January 1, 2011, that the 1099s must be issued for taxes that will be filed in 2012.

Wouldn't want anyone taken unaware if this truly is the case.

PreservingThePast wrote:

DirtyFingers wrote:I would be glad to take the nervous young gentleman's 90% off his hands at face value.

I agree with what has been posted already about a lack of Feds in a SHTF scenario. For me, the primary reason for hoarding PM and base metal is not preparation for SHTF. It is a storage of wealth first, a means of survival last.

The issuing of 1099's in 2012 is old news and will not only affect coin and bullion shops. Hopefully this will be repealed in 2011.

I am still being told by several dealers, as late as this past Sunday, December 19, 2010, that the law goes into effect on January 1, 2011, that the 1099s must be issued for taxes that will be filed in 2012.

Wouldn't want anyone taken unaware if this truly is the case.

An no one is disputing that. It is GOING TO HAPPEN..... for transactions OVER $600. SO............. don't sell in allotments of over $599? Silver bars are going to harder to be break up than denominated coins. Lets say silver spiked to $600 an ounce, and all you have is bars. Well then you're screwed, and you'll be paying taxes on them. And you best be able to report them amount you paid for it so you can report the capital gains. It's sounding like 90% coins will still fly under the radar.

jerry, i didn't bother to watch your youtube vid but there is nothing illegal about barter transactions or using 90% silver coins in a barter transaction.

the only thing possibly illegal is if you exchange say $100 FV of 90% for say $2000 worth of services, both parties must recognize taxable income of $2000. if you don't pay the taxes on that then yeah its tax evasion. but that's no different than paying the guy who mows your grass in cash - green FRN's - and if he doesn't report that income than he's evading taxes too.

Can anyone clarify the 1099 rule (which I know small businesses are fighting it at the states level). My understanding is it's not until 2012, in which case, if you walked into a coin shop on Jan 1, 2012 and bought a 1oz gold coin for $1600, the proprietor would have to check your ID and write up a receipt etc and it would be reportable to the IRS.

The IRS form 1099 reports transactions to the IRS.

If I hire casual labor and pay more than 600.00 I have to send the IRS a 1099 detailing the transaction.

If you win 1200 or more in a casino slot, they will issue you a 1099.

Now any business transaction, due to Obama care, over 600.00 must be documented on a IRS form 1099.

If you are issued a 1099 the IRS will expect you to pay tax on the amount or write it off your books. Either way it forces you to account for the amounts reported.

I will evade this requirement as will every suppiler I do business with. We will get around it.

Also, I will have no problem avoiding dealers as a place to liquidate my silver. Does your dealer give you invoices for cash transactions? I'll bet not.

As a buyer the 1099 will not affect you unless you're a business, than you will have to issue a 1099 to those whom you pay 600 or more.

As a general comment concerning this thread.

Does anyone here really give a [shucks] if its illegal to barter with 90% junk? Would that really change your behavior?

jerry278 wrote:Everyone brings up great points. I am still curious on peoples thoughts about govt. issued coins (ASE, Maples, Philharmonics) as opposed to generic rounds? Do you think a situation could every arise that your ASE is only worth what the gov. says it is (according to this guy b/c of third party liabilities) or is that bs?

Something may be said for preferring Maples over Eagles; the former is worth five dollars whereas the latter is worth only one.