Realcent.org

Last week, I went with a friend to pick up some coin. We ended up at his favored ‘We Buy Gold & Silver’ places.

I had some cash and asked if they would sell me some junk Ag. I bought a few dimes.

What seemed strange to me was; after examining the junk, I handed him the cash, and he handed me the junk. No receipt, no tax, no record, no paper trail.

I usually buy off the internet or here on RealCent, which always leaves a trail. Not that a trail is a bad thing, or is it? Did I just make a trail by posting this question? What do you all think?

Thanks

Amalekidad

The smaller the trail the better.

A few years back, I started going to auctions whenever I saw they were going to have silver or gold coins in them. I rarely bought anything because it seemed like everything went for way over melt. At first, I thought the people were crazy because they could go online and easily buy the exact same stuff for less money. Then the whole paper trail thing hit me. They are able to get a number, pay cash for their coins, and walk away free and clear. That started to appeal to me. I still buy mostly online, but I need to stop, or at least slow down.

My LCS is the same way. However, they did mention to me that there is a bill in the House right now trying to make it mandatory for sales of PM's to accompany a receipt. I asked them how this would work for deals on websites like this one and they had no input. All they could tell me is that people are trying to make it mandatory for sales on PM's to have a paper trail. They also said that these "receipts" would also be needed for selling back to the LCS. This all seems a bit too much if you ask me but I wouldn't put it past the goverment for thrying to monitor all sales.

Like Silverstacker, I found a LCS that has a great owner that asks no questions unless you pay with a check or credit card. Cash can be handed over in exchange for any type of silver or gold on hand. There are no taxes involved either, just really good conversation. I started dealing with him in 2006 when he moved from a flea market into a strip mall on a busy highway. Unlike the flea market that was only open during the weekend, he is open Monday through Saturday. This allowed me to stop by while on my sales route using the company vehicle which eliminated any personal time invested or fuel costs. It seemed like a close to perfect set up until my wife destroyed it. She moved us over 500 miles away from there to keep her job. I now have to send a check to my dad so he can make purchases for me when he is in that area. So now I have shipping charges and wait times involved, but still no paper trail that points to metal ownership.

Should we be worried about receipts? I mean, are the authorities going to come knocking at your door in a few years and say: "give us those ASEs you bought form APMEX in 2010!" ? OK, half of you are going to answer "YES" to that question, but what if I say to them, "Oh I dumped them all in the Salvation Army kettle a couple of Christmases ago...". What can they do? Especially if they can't find them....

I will keep stacking. You should too.

PD's are often allowed to keep seized "drug" money, and some go out of their way to seize as much as possible. The story about a deputy seizing money from a guy going to pick up a car he won on ebay is a good reminder that various governments can be after your assets even if the feds aren't.

Without a paper trail, you become a big fat target if they happen to learn that you're a stacker.

trail schmail...screw 'em. I've rarely accepted a receipt for metal in 40 years.

But the point about asset confiscation is a good one. Personally, I don't believe accurate record keeping is going to save you when the Man comes looking to jack you up on some bs charge just plausible enough to take your stuff.

I know a guy who had 18k in cash taken from him after a traffic stop. He was on his way home from Foxwoods, having taken 2nd place in a Texas hold 'em tournament. A broken high-beam was all they needed. No drinking, drugs, no arrest record...still took him more than a year to get his money returned, minus lawyer fees.

If you're gonna stack you should plan for the worst.

My LCS (both of the ones I've been to) are the same way. No receipt, no taxes (although I'm not sure they're supposed to charge tax-metals might be exempt here). At first I thought it was cool. But then the obvious thought hit me: why in the world would it be a good thing for me not to get a receipt? You don't want a paper trail for someone else to look at, but having a record for yourself could hardly be a bad thing. If you're worried about people seeing it, just hide it with your metals. Or destroy it if you really want it gone. But if you ever need to prove ownership, or if you ever sell it and need to prove you didn't buy it at face value (and thus have more profits to pay taxes on), you may want a receipt. The next time I buy from my LCS, I'll ask for a receipt...

All very good points. For tax reasons you would want a receipt. I have bought silver years ago with no receipts but I have no way of establishing a basis if I sell enough of it that I need to report it on my taxes. And I have bought from Provident Metals where I do have a receipt and they of course have all the info on me and my purchases that they will turn over to the government if they ask for it. Maybe they all ready do let the government know who and what everyone is buying. I guess over all I think it might be better to have no paper trail.

silverstacker wrote: They also said that these "receipts" would also be needed for selling back to the LCS. This all seems a bit too much if you ask me but I wouldn't put it past the goverment for thrying to monitor all sales.

Heck, these government idiots make laws to stop people from using their cell phones and texting while driving, yet we see it everyday, including the cops...... so I gotta think the ability to enforce such a receipt rule would be near impossible.

If the government wanted to seriously control the silver market, it would be much easier than the whole receipt thing..... Make each mint apply for a license and place a counting device on their line as the mint press strikes. Each strike is taxed, period. This is the way beer is taxed at the brewery. I saw it in action at Yeungling Brewery in Pottsville, PA. There is a counter that counts the gallons through the pipe. Each gallon that flows through the pipe is taxed. There are inspections to ensure the counters are working so the gubberment gets theirs. There would also be a similar process to tax silver shot and industrial silver.

This process is much easier to control for the majority of silver produced and you do not have to involve people that can circumvent you as easily.

I did lots of thinking on the government asset confiscation as well. the government does not want your silver. Not because they do not want it, because it is too profitable for them for you to not be able to buy it. Every ASE carries a large premium over and above generic. We all know it yet we all run out and buy the new year ASE. Last year 2013, they ran out and had to make more. THEY RAN OUT! They ran out of something that is the same product that all the other private mints had plenty of in their own form. Why? Demand. They control the supply, they control the price, and the demand is there for it. Why take back something that would be unpopular and cost the government money.

Think about it. Their distribution network makes money for the government, their distributors selling it to the second level distributor and eventually the LCS. All that money, all the way down means profit for all those companies, and profit means tax. The Feds get their money up front and taxes all the way down the chain. It is multi-level marketing at its best. Why stop that?

It they were to confiscate, there would be a huge cost to recover this silver. First, they would attempt to buy back, and that would cost money, and likely more than what they expect especially if they keep printing, and it has already been proven when they tried to outlaw most gold in the 1930's that they are not going to get it all. I mean we still have plenty of coins from before 1933 when everyone was supposed to turn it in....or get fined, right? So, that means they will have to beat down doors and take the rest to be effective. That will not go over well. It will cost more than they get, and I believe they will see more lead than silver if it came to that.

So, I think what they will do is tax it at the level they control....The mint to the distributor. If they are not making enough, they will raise the tax. If you look like you are going to get ahead, they will tax it. If a private mint can circumvent them, they will tax or regulate them so that their product fails to exceed the ASE. It is so much easier to allow the masses to keep their silver and control them with taxes.

Same process for gold.

My guy in Grand Forks issued me a reciept each time but it has no name, address or
phone number on it. So I can prove I bought x amount of silver dimes from him
at a certain price on a certain date but if someone goes through his copies they would
get no information on who bought what from him when, they could only piece together
what he sold when at what price.

This is smart for annother reason as I read on one bullion dealer's site. (I forget where
it was now.) Apparently they do the same thing. Their local police department advised
them to not put customer information on their copy of the reciepts incase someone
stole their records. If someone stole their records and it had customer addresses on
it (or other information from which they could determine the address) the thief would
suddenly have a list of people who have valuable stuff to rob.

Anything I bought from Kitco I assume they still have a record of, though I can't look it
up on their site more than 2 years past the purchase date. Of course if somebody stole
their records the only address they would get is a P.O. Box. 2 of the 3 shipments were
to a P.O. Box at a now defuct RPO so I'm not even sure if Canada Post has records of
who had the box anymore.

Do you need to have a receipt? Is a contemporaneous record enough? You could have received precious metals through gift, inheritance or private party transaction so the rule must be something a little less strict than receipt or nothing.

My LCS has told me many times they are required to issue a receipt, I think it has something to due with money laundering and the patriot act. Last week I was Rush Martin and today I was Joe Larson maybe next week I will be Bill Levin. LOL

Try coin shows. Cash talks, no receipts, no tax add-ons. Rummage through the pile for the nicest ones. Easy to talk some dealers into quantity discounts.

baggerman wrote:My LCS has told me many times they are required to issue a receipt, I think it has something to due with money laundering and the patriot act. Last week I was Rush Martin and today I was Joe Larson maybe next week I will be Bill Levin. LOL

You had to tell him your name for a receipt?

scyther wrote:

baggerman wrote:My LCS has told me many times they are required to issue a receipt, I think it has something to due with money laundering and the patriot act. Last week I was Rush Martin and today I was Joe Larson maybe next week I will be Bill Levin. LOL

You had to tell him your name for a receipt?

Yes, they ask your name so they can put it on your reciept. It's usually a two-part carbon receipt that descibes what you bought (example: 20 generic rounds) and price. Then there is a section for your name. Any will do

Paper trail is irrelevant unless you are a millionaire - its not like the government is going around seizing small time coin collections. If the Treasury decides it needs a large amount of gold and silver, they'd go after primary mines, COMEX, Sprott, investment bank vaults, bullion wholesalers, etc. not Joe Blow in Wichita with 47 ASEs and a roll of quarters.

AGgressive Metal wrote:Paper trail is irrelevant unless you are a millionaire - its not like the government is going around seizing small time coin collections. If the Treasury decides it needs a large amount of gold and silver, they'd go after primary mines, COMEX, Sprott, investment bank vaults, bullion wholesalers, etc. not Joe Blow in Wichita with 47 ASEs and a roll of quarters.

Maybe, but it can still be useful for tax purposes.

scyther wrote:

AGgressive Metal wrote:Paper trail is irrelevant unless you are a millionaire - its not like the government is going around seizing small time coin collections. If the Treasury decides it needs a large amount of gold and silver, they'd go after primary mines, COMEX, Sprott, investment bank vaults, bullion wholesalers, etc. not Joe Blow in Wichita with 47 ASEs and a roll of quarters.

Maybe, but it can still be useful for tax purposes.

Oh yeah of course, I just meant so far as government privacy/confiscation concerns.

AGgressive Metal wrote:Paper trail is irrelevant unless you are a millionaire - its not like the government is going around seizing small time coin collections. If the Treasury decides it needs a large amount of gold and silver, they'd go after primary mines, COMEX, Sprott, investment bank vaults, bullion wholesalers, etc. not Joe Blow in Wichita with 47 ASEs and a roll of quarters.

The Treasury yes, I agree will not look to the little guy. But do not underestimate the greed that asset forfeiture will give your local police department. Unless, they think like we do, they will be sniffing out all the PMs they can find if possession becomes a crime.

johnbrickner wrote:

AGgressive Metal wrote:Paper trail is irrelevant unless you are a millionaire - its not like the government is going around seizing small time coin collections. If the Treasury decides it needs a large amount of gold and silver, they'd go after primary mines, COMEX, Sprott, investment bank vaults, bullion wholesalers, etc. not Joe Blow in Wichita with 47 ASEs and a roll of quarters.

The Treasury yes, I agree will not look to the little guy. But do not underestimate the greed that asset forfeiture will give your local police department. Unless, they think like we do, they will be sniffing out all the PMs they can find if possession becomes a crime.

They don't even need to wait for possession to become a crime. If you have it, they can make up a dozen different excuses to seize it.

johnbrickner wrote:

AGgressive Metal wrote:Paper trail is irrelevant unless you are a millionaire - its not like the government is going around seizing small time coin collections. If the Treasury decides it needs a large amount of gold and silver, they'd go after primary mines, COMEX, Sprott, investment bank vaults, bullion wholesalers, etc. not Joe Blow in Wichita with 47 ASEs and a roll of quarters.

The Treasury yes, I agree will not look to the little guy. But do not underestimate the greed that asset forfeiture will give your local police department. Unless, they think like we do, they will be sniffing out all the PMs they can find if possession becomes a crime.

I agree. I used to be afraid of "Big Brother," but I've been getting a little more nervous about "Little Brother" over the last few years. If things go bad, I'm sure anyone with any scrap of power will be using it to full advantage and won't hesitate to confiscate anything and everything they can, especially if they're guaranteed to keep all of even some of it.

You will be far more likely to have your PM hoard "confiscated" by a neighborhood druggie who broke into your house than you ever will having the government legally take. I spend no time worrying about government confiscation and instead focus my efforts on the best possible hiding places inside my home to thwart any scumbag druggie--and druggies are everywhere!