$10 dollar gold VS. 1/2 oz. gold

[Treetop]

A few topics Id like to touch on here.... this all holds true for the 1/4 oz vs $5 commemoratives to. they just didnt have any of the 1/4s of their lowest quality to compare it to.

first there are $10 AGE 1/2 oz. coins. for a random year single coin it costs 810.58 for .500 ounces. this is $53.53 over spot.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/2/1_2_oz_G ... _Year.aspx

then there is the $10 commemorative's. these have .48375 oz of gold in them. their cost is 752.92 for a single coin. this is about 20.50 over spot.
http://www.apmex.com/Product/9580/1000_ ... _4838.aspx

Then there are the pre33 gold 10 and 5 dollar pieces which carry a higher premium. but are also collectors coins. those seemed to start around 50 over spot in a cleaned state from apmex. 65 for Ef and 80 for AU.......

http://www.apmex.com/Category/99/1000_E ... ified.aspx

a bit higher for other types.

http://www.apmex.com/Category/252/1000_ ... ified.aspx


the premiums are in similar ratios for the 1/4 ouncers vs the comm. $5 dollars as well. couldnt compare those as easy.

So im curious what others think. seems to me the commemoratives beat out the AGEs hands down. especially if you want smaller coins, which i would prefer. although its to bad the gold content isnt marked on them. But you can then get fractional gold for a much lower price. At the same time the coins being sold as they were are almost always in impeccable condition, often even proofs just mixed in with the rest.

but then the old pre33 gold is great, and has collector value as well. but how much in the lower grades? Is it worth even getting anything under AU? or EF? with those premiums? Or is graded the way to go with such things?

the lower grades of the pre33 stuff would cost roughly what AGEs do to stack, though with those that doesnt hold true with the pre 33 five dollars. Ot dpes with the comm. 5 dollars though, higher premiums on the 1/4 AGEs but only around 20 over for the 5 dollars comms. and they are in impeccable shape, possibly proofs. a bit less gold per coin but that was accounted for in the relation to spot.

the main thing AGEs have in this is the fact they stamp the amount of gold onto them..... and they are also a full 1/4 or half ounce... But really that doesnt matter to much, as long as people knew how much the others have...

anyway Im curious what others think of my ramblings here... and I know apmex might not be the best place to buy.... but it was a single place to compare the relation to spot of the coins that I wanted to relate.

[Country]

Fractional 1/2 oz and 1/4 oz is worth the premium. With the exception of 1986, 1987, 1997-1999, and 2009, the mintage mostly under 100,000, many years under 50,000. 2010 fractional AGE 1/2 and 1/4 GOLD eagles were very low mintage, almost as low as the now rare 1990 and 1991 coins which are selling at a large premium over spot. Due to the popularity of AGEs, I think these low mintage 1/2 and 1/4 AGEs are a good buy - collectible value is generally not included in the price.

Of course, owning $5 and $10 pre-1933 GOLD is special. But, you have to pay a very high premium over spot to obtain them. These really have become collector coins, with large spreads between BUY and SELL.

The GOLD commemoratives are a good buy if you are looking for cheap GOLD. They have an odd ASW weight though and are .900 fine GOLD. In addition, many were minted in large quantities too. When you buy these from APMEX, don't expect to get any of the scarcer ones.

While the First Spouse series of 1/2 GOLD has not been that popular, the mintages are exceedingly small. Most of these have become collector coins. However, the Jefferson's Liberty, which is reasonably cheap, could have real collector value in the future as part of a First Spouse Liberty set, and a mintage of only 20,000 (some of which have already been melted down). Get this one in with the wooden presentation box as it comes from the mint. Skip the slabbed ones here - too expensive.

IMHO, the best overall buy right now is the recent low mintage 1/4 and 1/2 AGEs that you can obtain for a small percentage over spot. In time, these will have collector value in addition to their popularity as AGEs. Obtain the 2007 and 2010 1/4 and 1/2 AGEs. These should appreciate in time just like the 1990 and 1991 ones did.

[Lemon Thrower]

there are 3 considerations in my book - true weight, convenience, and liquidity.

however, i think gold will go up 10X before i need to sell, so this shapes my thinking.

true weight - uncirculated coins are better because when you go to sell the buyer can be certain that all the gold that is supposed to be there is actually there. smaller coins are better in this regard also because they are much less likely to be counterfeited as its orders of magnitude more difficult.

convenience - if gold goes to 15,000, there are few people with that much cash to buy a whole counce. a fifth ounce however would be only 3,000. so smaller the better.

liquidity - people like government coins over private, and us over foreign.

weighing these 3 considerations, foreign fractional gold is the best deal. you get more gold for your money and get it in very convenient sizes. British sovereigns, French and Swiss 20 francs are very recongizable and available at modest premium - about 20 bucks over for a sovereign and 10 bucks over for the francs. sovereigns are .2354 agw and francs .1867. if you go with less common gold like south america you can get it with even smaller premiums.

[97guns]

i had not bought any gold since last year and started looking for some cheap gold. ive been snapping up the $5 sets, after i subtracted the melt value of the silver off this lot i bought last week im getting the gold for $1405/oz or $338 per coin.

[68Camaro]

I don't know the commemoratives well, but as I understand it the $5 gold commemoratives are nothing like the $5 AGEs. I can't find the specs for the commems from the mint. Another source says they contain .24187 toz. Anyone have a link to an authoritative set of specs for it. (Don't know why the mint makes this so difficult.)

[97guns]

yeah they are .24 , i dont think i'll ever ring out any premium on them. for me they were purchased under melt and will probably be sold for under also.

[fusscharles]

I have been experimenting with buying old $10 liberty heads on ebay. If i hit the auction just right, I am paying 10-12% over melt shipped for MS62 grade by NCG...... PCGS is a little tougher to find at a great price, but I figure, they should be very liquid when I resell.

My view on gold is a little different than some, I hold it to store value, not to "make money". ...... in land, silver and copper, I look for "returns" but in gold, I just have it for a rainy day or to preserve what little money I accumulated. I do the same with holding chinese hard currency.... I don't expect to make anything, but sure won't loose value in my opinion. Gold is my middle term wealth preservation, renminbi is for the long term. Silver is my short term (within 2 years) money maker, land and copper long term.

[Treetop]

thanks for the opinions everyone.... as to foreign gold, call me silly, but I wan mainly american stuff or things clearly minted with weight and fineness on them.... So I wont be getting much or any of that anytime soon.

the weight of the comm. gold is the same as the pre33 stuff.... i dont expect them to carry a premium, but thats the point I can get more gold in a mint state or even proofs for a lower premium.

As to the pre33 stuff, atleast on apmex the lower grade stuff goes for the same premium as the AGEs. thats why Im curious if specifically stacking the lower grade pre33 stuff is better then AGEs in others opinions. Because weighing just premiums the comm dollar stuff wins hands down in my eyes. And when considering collector value, the pre33 stuff may be best and the low grade goes for the same as AGEs, hard for me to pick AGEs in that context.....

although mapple leaves being purer gold interest me not that Im sure that matters with gold.

[97guns]

i just got home to see ive picked up 3 more sets off ebay, after the math im getting the gold for $1363/oz.

[Lemon Thrower]

i had not bought any gold since last year and started looking for some cheap gold. ive been snapping up the $5 sets, after i subtracted the melt value of the silver off this lot i bought last week im getting the gold for $1405/oz or $338 per coin.

this is a very interesting idea.

tell me more about these commemoratives!

[Lemon Thrower]

a couple of comments.

old gold - there is a newsletter writer Dr. Steve Sjuggerud who is a big fan of high-grade pre-33 gold. he says numismatic premiums are as low as they have ever been. I don't know if he's right about the value going up but you are in good company, Dr. Steve is a smart one.

foreign gold - i think this is an area that is very overlooked right now. it was minted by a government and has an established purity/weight. Many collectors are ignorant of this but dealers are not. I cringe when i think about the premiums i paid for 1/10 oz eagles when i could have been buying Sovereigns, Roosters, and half sovereigns and half roosters for much less and gotten more gold.

gold not an investment - this is a wise way to think. you need to think of your returns on investments in gold, not in dollars, because they are printing so many dollars that your return is a moving target. When other things seem expensive, that means its good to buy gold. there will come a time when other things - stocks, land, etc., looks cheap and that is when you sell your gold or what have you. this is the time to buy gold and silver, not to sell.

[68Camaro]

Good comments.

old gold - I've been buying it. I'm personally not paying a lot for higher grade coins, and maybe I'm missing out in my ignorance, but I do always prefer higher grades if I can get them for not much more.

foreign gold - only just started buying it. I was biased in my naiveté. Then I got my first sov from wags (here) a couple weeks ago, and just seeing it, feeling it in my hand, made it click for me. It's a perfectly sized coin, and so much better value than the US fractional (except for old US $10 coins). I still prefer local US gold, all else the same, but if the foreign gold is a better value and has well documented recognition, I'll be looking for it.

gold as non investment - true

a couple of comments.

old gold - there is a newsletter writer Dr. Steve Sjuggerud who is a big fan of high-grade pre-33 gold. he says numismatic premiums are as low as they have ever been. I don't know if he's right about the value going up but you are in good company, Dr. Steve is a smart one.

foreign gold - i think this is an area that is very overlooked right now. it was minted by a government and has an established purity/weight. Many collectors are ignorant of this but dealers are not. I cringe when i think about the premiums i paid for 1/10 oz eagles when i could have been buying Sovereigns, Roosters, and half sovereigns and half roosters for much less and gotten more gold.

gold not an investment - this is a wise way to think. you need to think of your returns on investments in gold, not in dollars, because they are printing so many dollars that your return is a moving target. When other things seem expensive, that means its good to buy gold. there will come a time when other things - stocks, land, etc., looks cheap and that is when you sell your gold or what have you. this is the time to buy gold and silver, not to sell.

[97guns]

the way i roll is buyin the cheapest gold i can find. the only us minted gold in my stack are 1/10 eagles. all the rest is mexican peso and a autrian corona. my thinking is it makes no difference whether i buy cheap gold and sell for cheap or i buy premium gold and recapture my premium when i sell. im picking them up for $100 under melt which leaves me ALOT of wiggle room and at $1400 an oz im a buyer all day long, i dont care if it has mickey mouse on it.

[Market Harmony]

old gold (pre-33) is rare, folks. It's only a matter of time until the premiums increase. Also, if gold drops, those premiums typically lag, so you will have wiggle room to get out if you think a premium drop due to a gold price drop is forthcoming. The other bonus is that numismatic premiums outpace gold appreciation in short term bull markets. Over time, however, as gold went from $300 to $1500, the premium percentages have gone down. What does this all tell me?

long term, Numismatics are cheaply price in relation to gold
short term, if you think there is an upcoming rise in gold, you can buy numi gold and later sell it for a better return than spot gold, OR you will have a cushion of opportunity to unload at better pricing while spot price is dropping

It is speculation, but I think numismatic gold is a great opportunity today... it's RARE!

[97guns]

duly noted, nice to have the perspective from the old gold camp.

[Treetop]

Well rather then buying gold, I traded ASEs for pre33 gold. some kruggerand fractionals I did buy. I then just bought silver with a lower premium. I ended up getting the gold at a good price and still have the silver in .999, and transferred the premium ASEs hold, to the gold. Which is great really as I intend to keep these. Much of my stash wouldnt be sold even if I thought a bull market had peaked. I would if I had to, but I dont intend to. Ive got 2 of the older $10EF gold pieces and 2 st. gaudensMS62 $20 pieces. Id really like a $10 indian though. i might grab one on apmex despite the premiums. (anyone interested in trades let me know) Getting the pre33 gold also lightens the blow of havin possibly picked a poor time to trade silver for gold. I just missed a great chance at 49 silver, but Im feeling queasy with all my metal being silver. shes (silver) is still my leading lady though....

Since MH is saying premiums are lower on pre33 gold,(Im new to gold) I think others might want to re access that situation a bit. comparing the premiums to AGEs and such from the sources I looked at, some of the pre33 stuff didnt seem to bad at all actually. Perhaps the premiums wont track the price rise.... hard to say. i could certainly relate to those who just want the most meta per dollar dont get me wrong. numismatics though, can be like a bet within a bet so to speak. Or you can do like many here, and use anything left under spot from a great score to buy something with a premium.

Thank you for your opinions everyone. i think everyone who replied had well thought out reasons for their choices, and all were good great models. solid advice all around.

[Treetop]

I broke down and ordered an AU $10 indian gold eagle. I couldnt resist.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/4026/10_In ... etter.aspx

[fusscharles]

my favorite coin ever..... nice one....

I just received a MS 62 Liberty $10 in the mail (came in yesterday, getting to look at it today under a loop).... admiring it in between times i type.

[97guns]

i just checked apmex's buy sell spread for the coins in discussion and ran the numbers.




$10 Indian Gold Eagle (AU or Better) sell price $837.28 buy price $741.80 spread $95.48
$5 Liberty Gold Half Eagle (XF or Better) sell price $411.24 buy price $360.99 spread $50.25

$10.00 Gold US Mint Commemorative sell price $752.24 buy price $711.77 spread $40.47
$5.00 Gold US Mint Commemorative sell price $386.08 buy price $355.85 spread $30.23

[Treetop]

Yeah imo the commemoratives are probably the best buy. Fitting the most of my objectives... But if its between AGEs or the pre33 I think the pre33 stuff is a solid buy.... adding to the stack from here will likely be mostly commemoratives.