Possible new american nickels

[robroy]

I have seen on coinnews that Congressman Steve Stivers of Ohio introduced the proposed changes as part of the Cents and Sensibility Act, H.R. 3693, and the Saving Taxpayer Expenditures by Employing Less Imported Nickel Act, H.R. 3694, also known as the STEEL Nickel Act. Taxpayer savings was the reason given for each. This bill has been introduced within the past two weeks.

Not only would this proposed legislation affect nickels but pennies also. This would have far reaching consequences between when or if this change takes place it would have the same effect on pennies and nickels that taking silver out of the coinage had to dimes, quarters, and halves had back in 1964. Once this switch would take place all current nickels and pennies would be driven underground in a couple of years. Furthermore, vending machine mechanisms may need to be reworked to accomodate the new coins.

What would say would be the numismatic value of current nickels and pennies when or if this change is made.

http://www.coinnews.net/2011/12/23/bill ... -to-steel/

[Hawkeye]

Interesting article. I would think that something like that is going to have to happen at some point in the not too distant future. The question I have is this: if the US government stops using copper and nickel to make nickels, how much (if any) is that going to effect the price of nickel and copper? I would assume that a drop in demand would equal a drop in price, but I also assume that metal for making US coins isn't a massive part of the overall world demand. I'm just thinking out loud here - Does anyone else have any opinions on this?

[ZenOps]

It will probably have no effect on the overall industrial nickel market.

1.85 billion pure Canadian nickels = 7,500 tonnes of 5 cent nickels produced in 50+ years. Annual worldwide nickel production 1,300,000 tonnes per year.

But its very sad, that both the British and US can no longer afford to use even a semi-rare metal as currency for the masses (nickel is 920x rarer than iron and 10x rarer than copper.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... aster.html

Seriously - You have to wonder at the sheer greed, if the USA cannot afford to spread out maybe 200 tonnes of nickel for coinage each year. Sure, slaves use debt as money - and servants use copper - but what sort of person uses steel and cotton as money?

In the old days - the debasement from Gold dollars to silver dollars was 15.5x in rarity. A debasement from nickel to iron (not counting the 2% nickel coating to make it look like nickel) is a 920x debasement.

Nickel is a perfect modern currency metal IMO. In pure form its nearly indestructable, and yet is still rare enough to warrant *some* value over iron (steel)

[barrytrot]

But its very sad, that both the British and US can no longer afford to use even a semi-rare metal as currency for the masses (nickel is 920x rarer than iron and 10x rarer than copper.)

They *can afford* to. Especially as evidenced by the fact that *they are*.

But why? Should the government waste money on everything? I think saving money by the government should always be done.

They aren't spending their money, after all, they are spending, ours. Or at least those that pay taxes.

[ZenOps]

I think you have that backwards. Circulation currency is the last vestage of hard money for the masses. Its not saving people anything, its taking the last scraps of real money away from the people. You are no longer allowed to personally save in metal - the government owns it all.

If there is no anchor to a dollars worth other than cotton and iron (both arguably not worth much) then perception of money goes right out the window. You will get people like the CEO of Google offering to pay $33 million of electronic money for a parking spot for his jets - but not being able to get it.

North Korea does not have a metal "anchor". They willingly pay $10 US for a single Choco-pie there on a wage of $100/month.

What made a person in 1963 find it fair value to change 5 nickels for one silver quarter? What made it fair value in 1889 to change 20 nickels for one 1.672 gram 90% US gold dollar? What makes it fair value to change five 201X zincers or iron cored pennies for one 25% nickel?

They even debased food stamps (which 15% of the US now relies on) from cotton to re-usable magnetic stripe cards (debit cards)

There is a small chance that nickel will float to a "rarity multiple" like gold and silver both did against copper when gold and silver were taken out of circulation. Technically I've always felt that nickel was worth much closer to $48 per pound or so as a monetary metal.

[penny pretty]

nickels..check copper pennies..check silver eagles..check shotgun and plenty of ammo... check. If Im wrong im eccentric. if Im right.. PRICELESS!

[Bluegill]

Once this switch would take place all current nickels and pennies would be driven underground in a couple of years.

Based on what? The change to Zn in mid 1982 didn't cause that. Canada went from Cu to Zn to Fe. One can still find all three in circulation... They went from Ni to CuNi to Fe with their nickels. Same situation. It's only because of their Alloy Recovery Program that the Ni specimens are getting harder to find.

The U.K. went from Cu right to Fe with their pennies and 2 pence 20 years ago. From what I hear from people living their on some other coin forums, one can still find both in circulation...

What would say would be the numismatic value of current nickels and pennies when or if this change is made.

Probably nothing. Any real significant difference between the Cu and Zn specimens now? Any real significant difference with the Canadian coinage? And these changes were made 30 years ago...

[ZenOps]

Zinc is arguably worth less than steel. If you go by the worst devaluation of currency in history, the Hungarian Pengo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coins_of_t ... peng%C5%91

They devalued their paper billions of percent, the 2 filler coins from bronze, then to steel, and then to zinc (and did not bother making any 1 filler coins)


You will find several Canadian pennies that went back to zinc cores in 2010. Its cheaper to produce the zinc cored penny than the steel one, as the steel one has 1.5% nickel (to adhere the 4.5% copper plating better) and is complex to manufacture. The Zinc core is 98.4% zinc and 1.6% copper.

[hobo finds]

I get .12 a pound for zinc and only .10 for steel!

[theo]

Once this switch would take place all current nickels and pennies would be driven underground in a couple of years.

Based on what? The change to Zn in mid 1982 didn't cause that. Canada went from Cu to Zn to Fe. One can still find all three in circulation... They went from Ni to CuNi to Fe with their nickels. Same situation. It's only because of their Alloy Recovery Program that the Ni specimens are getting harder to find.

The U.K. went from Cu right to Fe with their pennies and 2 pence 20 years ago. From what I hear from people living their on some other coin forums, one can still find both in circulation...

What would say would be the numismatic value of current nickels and pennies when or if this change is made.

Probably nothing. Any real significant difference between the Cu and Zn specimens now? Any real significant difference with the Canadian coinage? And these changes were made 30 years ago...

It's only because of their Alloy Recovery Program that the Ni specimens are getting harder to find.

The fact is Gresham's law still applies; bad money is driving out the good. It may be taking longer than it did with silver but it is still happening. The governments ARP carries the same motivation as the common metal hoarder.

From what I understand, it took about 5 years before silver coins disappeared from circulation. Why did it happen so fast?

1. In the 60s dimes and quarters carried real purchasing power. A gallon of milk was .30 and a candy bar was .10. Because of that more people noticed the change in composition. Compare that with the non-existant purchasing power of the penny in the 80s and it is not surprising that the 1982 change went almost completely unnoticed.

2. Silver, a precious metal, had been in coins since the nations founding. Replacing it with copper, a base metal, must have raised some eyebrows. The 1982 penny composition change was one base metal (copper) to another (zinc). The nation shrugged.

3. Inflation began to pick up in the mid 1960s, so a certain segment of the population must have decided that hoarding silver coins was an effective wealth preservation tool. Since owning gold was still illegal, silver coins was the only inflation hedge available to most regular people. In the early to mid 1980s the economy was growing, inflation was being tamed and commodities were in retreat. No one cared about the lowly penny.

Will the CuNi nickel disappear as quickly as silver coins did? Maybe not. Ron Paul placed 3rd with 23% percent of the vote in the NH primary tonight, so it is safe to say that the topic of currency de-valuation is seeping into the maintstream conciousness. I seriously doubt that the CuNi nickels will be in circulation in 10 years.

[ZenOps]

If you look carefully at the changing laws, they are slowly making nickel (and copper) illegal to use as a currency.

As of Dec 2006, its is illegal to melt pennies and nickels in the US. It is also illegal to transport more than $100 out of the country. Copper is not such a big deal, because if the price starts to double, you can always ramp up production, if Zinc starts topping $2, you can always increase production.

But if nickel starts going over $23/pound again (and begins to be measured in $ per ounce) the US does not have a single nickel mine that they can ramp production up at any price.

Much like how there were several restrictions placed upon gold in a time of great change. Imagine if they made it illegal to transport 1/16th an ounce of gold out of the country.. Its basically the same as making it illegal to own gold in the first place.

Truth be known, many people don't have two nickels to rub together. And if you get a few more billionaires placing their bets on metals (like Kyle Bass buying 20 million nickels as a less than 1% hedge against his other investments) then the nickels will be gone - nearly instantly.

My conspiracy - they want everyone electronic. Its easy to track, and easy to take away.

[cupronickel]

I agree entirely.

[cupronickel]

I just wish people knew how to use "their, there & they're."

[woodyh]

interesting article

[jasmatk]

you always here the govt crying about loosing money on nickels and pennys but you never hear anything about the gains on dimes,quarters,ect,. The presidential dollars have something like 6 cents worth of metal in them why doesnt the fed talk about that.

[oktyabyr]

you always here the govt crying about loosing money on nickels and pennys but you never hear anything about the gains on dimes,quarters,ect,. The presidential dollars have something like 6 cents worth of metal in them why doesnt the fed talk about that.

Because no one uses the presidential dollars! lol.

[fasteddy]

The treasury should have the mint produce (15) 1 trillion dollar coins and sell them to the thieves at the FED. Keep the Cu and Ni in the coin. Having the Ni in the nickel helps me save more money.