The laws

[iatetacos]

So if I remember this correctly, it's legal for me to deface pennies as long as I'm not trying to make them look like they are more money right? Also I'm not allowed to melt them. If I were to run the pennies through a metal shredder for "easier storage" would this be legal? After this point let's hypothetically say I left it in a storage container and they auctioned it off and the person had no idea the. Copper pulp was pennies. Would they be in trouble for unknowingly scrapping them?

[Copper Catcher]

I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV....

Your quote: If I were to run the pennies through a metal shredder for "easier storage" would this be legal? Think about this for a second... Your intent is clear the moment you shredded the coins. I think every DA in the country would conclude that you have committed a crime in doing so.

"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened- Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

Source: United States Code 18. i.e. The U.S. Code specifies penalties for individuals who are found to have committed a crime based on the provisions set out in Sections 331-333. These include unspecified fines, as well as prison time. Depending on the nature of the crime, the U.S. Code limits maximum prison terms to six months, one year or five years.

In short, if you deface money in a way to gain some sort of profit or to alter a coin or bill for that purpose then you are committing a felony that is going to be pursued if discovered.

[SilverDragon72]

So in other words....probably not a good idea to do that, huh?

[tinhorn]

So in other words....probably not a good idea to do that, huh?

You've got a keen eye for the apparent.

Didn't know lightening was illegal. Don't tell anyone about the pennies I've turned into flat washers.

[frugi]

The key word in all of this is fraudulently......which in it's essence, means you are trying to get one over on someone. As long as you are not trying to pass it off for something other than what it is or will be, I am pretty sure you are okay. SO, in other words, don't elongate that penny, and then try and spend it as a penny, because that my friend is fraud.

[iatetacos]

Exactly. If they can penny smash can't I shred? I wouldn't be doing it for the purpose of meting of scrapping. Just storage. And let's pretend I die. Someone's gotta get rid of my stuff and if my dad found a bucket of shredded copper, he would turn it in as scrap. And as such. Would it be wrong for him to unknowingly scrap coins? Would it be wrong for me to destroy the coins for storage purpose?

[penny pretty]

If there was a way to melt them, and make into what appears to be old copper piping........

[ScottyTX]

Alrighty I'll play So say a multi-colored Unicorn was out too late one night and had too many Golden Apple wine mixers at the local bar. He comes hopping through your neighborhood and suddenly feels the need to relieve himself (again remember, to many wine mixers). He then lets out a long steady stream of golden urine right on your shredded penny stack and bam the magic happens. They majically transform in to 1/10 ounce BU shredded eaglets. Now then the obvious question comes to mind, would you owe capital gains tax if a majical unicorn pissed on your shredded copper penny stash and turned it into gold?? Long story short, I would think its best not to shred them in the first place......

[everything]

Maybe someone with some really good lawyer friends will give this a try eventually and see what happens.

[frugi]

If there was a way to melt them, and make into what appears to be old copper piping........

you cannot melt them no matter what, if you are the shredder, (1st end user) you cant knowingly melt them, that is in violation of federal law. The law is in place to keep you from doing exactly that....."melting pennies into copper pipes".

[frugi]

...

[SilverDragon72]

So in other words....probably not a good idea to do that, huh?

You've got a keen eye for the apparent.

Didn't know lightening was illegal. Don't tell anyone about the pennies I've turned into flat washers.

/Sarcasm.

Yes, I was trying to be silly! I know it's currently illegal to melt them down.

[Copper Catcher]

There is a burden of proof to explain the purpose for shred pennies...In short, there is none unless you plan on melting them for a profit. A smashed penny with an imprint is sold as a novelty.

[PMLurker]

There is a burden of proof to explain the purpose for shred pennies...In short, there is none unless you plan on melting them for a profit. A smashed penny with an imprint is sold as a novelty.

Yep.

The fraudulent intent of the OP is what violates the law. The burden of proof would be on the OP. The OP's interpretation of the law will certainly be different than the court's interpretation of the law.

I would expect that if a scrapyard that you were taking these to found out what you were doing they would report you immediately.

it showing you bought some silver, then pay income tax when you sell it a year later for a bit higher, and pay a capital gains tax as well,

Wrong. Capital gains taxes are only subjected to additional state income taxes. Not additional federal income taxes. If you are paying federal income tax on top of capital gains taxes then you are filling out your taxes wrong.

[iatetacos]

1. This was completely hypothetical. 2. No one answered the question. Ignore the whole second part of the statement. Yes or no, is it illegal to basically mulch up pennies into copper pulp?

[PMLurker]

1. This was completely hypothetical.

Sure it was.

2. No one answered the question. Ignore the whole second part of the statement. Yes or no, is it illegal to basically mulch up pennies into copper pulp?

Yes they did, you just didn't care to read or comprehend.

If the intent is fraudulent, then yes it is illegal. The burden of proof would be on you and your lawyer to justify it not being fraudulent. For legal matters contact an attorney, not a bunch of people that post anonymously on a internet message board.

The meaning of the law is up to interpretation of a judge and the government. If you feel you need a concrete answer, then contact the treasury department and let us know what they tell you.

[JadeDragon]

I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV....

"Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened- Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

Source: United States Code 18. i.e. The U.S. Code specifies penalties for individuals who are found to have committed a crime based on the provisions set out in Sections 331-333. These include unspecified fines, as well as prison time. Depending on the nature of the crime, the U.S. Code limits maximum prison terms to six months, one year or five years.

In short, if you deface money in a way to gain some sort of profit or to alter a coin or bill for that purpose then you are committing a felony that is going to be pursued if discovered.

I disagree. This law is against counterfitting and shaving off gold/silver to lighten coins. The key word is "fraudulently" - to cheat someone. It does not prohibit:

1. melting coins like silver quarters for the metal in them.
2. flattening coins as a collectible
3. Drilling holes in coins to hang them on a string
4. Cutting coins in half to show how great your snips are

It is the Mint regulation that prohibits exporting melting or treatment of pennies and nickels are the problem.

“Treat” or “treatment” means to smelt, refine, or otherwise treat by heating, or by a chemical, electrical, or mechanical process.

https://www.federalregister.gov/article ... coins#p-37

[Numis Pam]

In other words, each person here has their own interpretation of 'the laws' ...... I suspect that is how we get into so much trouble sometimes and have to 'lawyer up' ...

[TwoPenniesEarned]

Shredding them would ultimately diminish their convertability IMO. They are identifiable and increasingly rare in coin form. Nothing wrong with copper bullion. All that effort to turn good identifiable bullion into a shredded pile of god-knows what? How much would it cost to do? How much would it in turn cost to melt them? Who could you sell to, and how could/would they be able to verify the metal content of the melted product? Would you need to Assay? How much would this cost?

All of this, and the potential illegality, weighed against simply keeping them, forgetting about them and in 20-30 years seeing them trade at spot just like silver dimes and quarters do today.

Doing nothing vs working your ass off, with the original coins holding an ultimately higher value in the long run. Why even contemplate destroying them? Just forget about them!

[Numis Pam]

+ 1 well stated!!!

Shredding them would ultimately diminish their convertability IMO. They are identifiable and increasingly rare in coin form. Nothing wrong with copper bullion. All that effort to turn good identifiable bullion into a shredded pile of god-knows what? How much would it cost to do? How much would it in turn cost to melt them? Who could you sell to, and how could/would they be able to verify the metal content of the melted product? Would you need to Assay? How much would this cost?

All of this, and the potential illegality, weighed against simply keeping them, forgetting about them and in 20-30 years seeing them trade at spot just like silver dimes and quarters do today.

Doing nothing vs working your ass off, with the original coins holding an ultimately higher value in the long run. Why even contemplate destroying them? Just forget about them!

[snappy]

If I were to run the pennies through a metal shredder for "easier storage" would this be legal?

100% illegal. It would not make for easier storage, it would take up a lot more space and be dangerous (very sharp edges)

[SilverEye]

I wonder about the cost to operate a machine that can shred a penny into bits that are not immediately recognizable as shredded pennies. I think this unnecessary step would eat into your profit margin.

[frugi]

no matter the case, there is no point in turning a documented piece of .950 Cu into a piece of unknown metal of unknown purity, absolutely no point.

[ScottyTX]

no matter the case, there is no point in turning a documented piece of .950 Cu into a piece of unknown metal of unknown purity, absolutely no point.

Very well put and my thoughts exactly........

[AGgressive Metal]

Why the heck would you shred them anyway? It makes no sense as an intermediate step before melting other than to try to hide that you are melting pennies which is illegal. We get so many questions on this I sometimes feel like there are "dot gov" people with nothing better to do.