Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Red » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:13 pm

fb101
As I'm sitting here arguing I know I agree with 99% of real cent'ers folks on 99% of the issues. :lol:

Thogey
I'm thinking at this point (like Ron Paul has been shouting for the last ten years) ... Whether you agree with nation building or not is irrelevant...
The facts are we just can't afford it anymore. We are strected too thin in too many places and we don't have any money to pay for our empire.
Rome ran out of money, The soviet union ran out of money, America is printing money like mad... But we too will fall the same way as Rome and the Russians did.

Look around you it's happening right now!

Kurr...
Very nice!
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Thogey » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:27 pm

Thogey wrote:"Conservatism is a political philosophy that supports using economic and military power (force) to bring about a desired objective to other countries.

Is this wrong, in your opinion, if the inhabitants of said country would like nothing more than to rip your guts out, burn them in an open fire, and throw the ashes in the face of your widow and fatherless children?

I've heard this term a lot over the past 15 years, and I'm trying to figure out if a neo-con is bad or good.

Or if i may be a sympathizer. Your post was very well written thank you

Edit to add, What do you mean by grabbing up oil in the middle east? I thought oil was sold in an open market? If not would it be better to develop oil resources on USA soil?



OK Red, Fair enough. This discussion did not evolve from an economic analysis.

I'm just trying to understand your point of view. Your first post here was a spirited dispute of Sheikh's opinion. You came at it from an angle of right and wrong, who are good guys, who are bad guys.

Please answer my question, in a vacuum, let's assume we can afford it.

This discussion was not spawned by a post on deficit spending.

We can't afford to swat flies, as a nation.

Let's assume we can afford it.

Edit to add: My question concerned the term 'neo-con'.

I always though that Conservatism described a philosophy of limited government and self-relience.

RCers are smart people and my outlook on this stuff has evolved quite a bit since I joined.
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Thogey » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:40 pm

Hey Kurr,

What's the significance of the Icelandic standard?
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:28 pm

I have heard many different people say that Pvt. Manning is more of a whistle-blowing hero than a villain. They say that the corruption uncovered was far worst than the crime of uncovering it, therefore, the end justifies the means. If the end justifies the means... how are you any better than the criminals who committed the crimes you are offended by? Isn't that how they play the game? Could they not also say you are a criminal, too?

No sir, this Republic is a nation RULED BY LAW, NOT BY MEN. It was AGAINST THE LAW for anyone to reveal state department cables, even if they were low level secret NONFORN status. IF Pvt. Manning is found to be guilty of doing this, he should be subjected to the harshest punishment available BY LAW. An example must be set for others to see.

If you have a problem with that, your quarrel is not with me. Your quarrel is with the very social contract that binds us together as a nation. That would be the Constitution of the United States of America and the US Code that codifies the meaning of those words within said constitution. The UCMJ is a part of that code.

My original concept in my first post was that we as a nation have lost our way. Post-modern American group-think is self destructive. We must return to our origins. If an example is not set here, at this horrible breach in national security, then where do you set it? What if the next "whistle-blower" believes the world is best served by leveling the playing field between us and North Korea? What if their notion of "fairness" is to give N. Korea our nuclear launch codes??! Anyone here want to defend that scenario as a betterment for our world?

It's already happened a few years back... Some scientist felt the world would be a better place if they released the bio-genome sequence for the Spanish Flu virus. Spanish Flu killed more people in 1918 than all who died in WW1. Once the info was out in cyber-space, they proudly announced they had done the world a favor. What fools. That information in the hands of bio-terrorists, backed by a rouge government, could lead to the death of billions.

There is a better way to fight the corruption within our government. We just had some success last November. We must build on that. If you want to fight the good fight... join people like me who stood in protest lines for the last two years. Join people like Cmdr. Chas. Kerschner, US Navy, Ret., who just lost a two and a half year battle entitled Kerschner, et al. vs. Obama, Congress, et al. I held three fundraisers for Cmdr. Kerschner. Just yesterday, Kerschner got the ultimate screw job. His 5th Amendment Rights were not upheld by SCOTUS. Why? Because the corruption has reached the highest levels of our government. Two Obama appointees refused to recuse themselves in this case, even though they had recused themselves on every other case involving Obama, or his administration. They wanted to make sure Kerschner's case died.

Yes, fight corruption within our government, but do it within the law.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Red » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:37 pm

Thogey

OK in that context...

I assume from your signature that you are a follower of Christ. As such you know there are no "good guys" We are all prone to fall and fail.
And in this world we live in it seems the worst scum always rises to the top. So .....Watch the top of the pond closely!

I would say don't let wikileaks do the job we should be doing... Instead of the government watching our every move while we all cower in fear hoping not to get raped by a TSA employee. it's the governments job to fear the people as they are constantly checking up on and investigating our leaders. Then honor will be restored to our country and I bet a few more countries citizens will be lead by our good example. The powerful elites will lose some of their power and the world would be a little safer to boot.

I think the policy should be-
A citizen is innocent until proven guilty and a politician is suspect until proven innocent.

oh by the way about the oil deal...
It is too much to explain it on here so I will direct you to a very good (and entertaining) history of oil and it's political connections...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQhhrzHKMhI
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Thogey » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:46 pm

Sorry Red,

Your reply is off topic and you didn't respond to my question concerning your opinion on neo-con philosophy.

This is my last post on this topic.

I still don't see how Sheikh's reply reeked of ignorance. I asked for an education and didn't get one.

Welcome to Realcent, red!
If I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to move mountains but do not have love I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned but do not have love it profits me nothing.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Red » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:32 pm

Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay

It's troubling how you completely lack the spirit of the founding fathers. And that your apparently not reading my posts.

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.”

Do you claim to have some higher insight on the workings of a government then Thomas Jefferson?

I can only imagine you as a Redcoat solider saying (probably while giving some poor colonist a beat down) This is a colony ruled RULED BY KING GEORGE, NOT BY PEASANT MEN.

See what I did there ... yes the names were changed but the context is the same!

You think that we can fight corruption by voting in republicans?
Is the word republican synonymous with "honest"?
Here is a partial list of of Republicans who are most likely facing investigations by the Department of Justice, House ethics committee, Senate ethics committee, and or Office of Congressional Ethics.
* Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)
* Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO)
* Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-FL)
* Rep. Ken Calvert (R-CA)
* Sen. John Ensign (R-NV)
* Rep. Doc Hastings (R-WA)
* Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-CA)
* Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
* Rep. Gary Miller (R-CA)
* Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK)
* Rep. Tim Murphy (R-PA)
* Rep. Harold Rogers (R-KY)
* Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX)
* Rep. Mike Turner (R-OH)
* Sen. David Vitter (R-LA)
* Rep. Don Young (R-AK)

And don't forget the celebrity crooks like Giuliani, Chenny and Palin

Do you really think that people who would screw over whole states would care about a few soldiers?

The republicans are just a bad as the democrats there is no real difference. The two party system is a smoke and mirrors trick to fool the masses
and give the illusion that change happens ... All while the fox is raiding the hen house!
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Red » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:42 pm

Thogey wrote:Sorry Red,

Your reply is off topic and you didn't respond to my question concerning your opinion on neo-con philosophy.

This is my last post on this topic.

I still don't see how Sheikh's reply reeked of ignorance. I asked for an education and didn't get one.

Welcome to Realcent, red!


Ive been on real cent for many years .. just lost my account on the old site.

I'm sorry I did my best to address you question in the way It was purposed...
neo-con philosophy is no secret you can find it on the web.
this is a domestic issue and it boild down to (per my post) you can't force morality on people at gun point.
That is why I do not support neo-con philosophy it is not complicated :?
also...If your have a hard time understanding foreign policy concepts there are several good reads on the internet.
-The 911 commission report
-Ron Paul has some interesting views
-Judge Andrew Napolitano is another good one.

I'm afraid I can only give you my opinions that I have come by hours of study....you will have to educate yourself :D
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:11 am

Red wrote:Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay

It's troubling how you completely lack the spirit of the founding fathers. And that your apparently not reading my posts.

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.”

Do you claim to have some higher insight on the workings of a government then Thomas Jefferson?

I can only imagine you as a Redcoat solider saying (probably while giving some poor colonist a beat down) This is a colony ruled RULED BY KING GEORGE, NOT BY PEASANT MEN.

See what I did there ... yes the names were changed but the context is the same!

You think that we can fight corruption by voting in republicans?
Is the word republican synonymous with "honest"?
Here is a partial list of of Republicans who are most likely facing investigations by the Department of Justice, House ethics committee, Senate ethics committee, and or Office of Congressional Ethics.
* Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN)
* Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO)
* Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-FL)
* Rep. Ken Calvert (R-CA)
* Sen. John Ensign (R-NV)
* Rep. Doc Hastings (R-WA)
* Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-CA)
* Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
* Rep. Gary Miller (R-CA)
* Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK)
* Rep. Tim Murphy (R-PA)
* Rep. Harold Rogers (R-KY)
* Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX)
* Rep. Mike Turner (R-OH)
* Sen. David Vitter (R-LA)
* Rep. Don Young (R-AK)

And don't forget the celebrity crooks like Giuliani, Chenny and Palin

Do you really think that people who would screw over whole states would care about a few soldiers?

The republicans are just a bad as the democrats there is no real difference. The two party system is a smoke and mirrors trick to fool the masses
and give the illusion that change happens ... All while the fox is raiding the hen house!


Red, if rebellion is so great, just get it on dude! Just because Jefferson made some comment... that does not mean it is the constitutional gospel! Name one rebellion that has succeeded since 1776 in all of American history. Shay's Rebellion? Not! The Civil War rebellion? Not! What else you got?

What I see is you resorting to name calling when someone disagrees with you. First you allude I am a neo-con, now I am alluded to British soldiers abusing American colonists. That is very childish. You also puff up your ego by inferring you are more intelligent than those you oppose. More childishness.

I have had enough. Fooey on you. (I would say something else, but there are rules here. Oh, I know... you will have to rebel against them, too!)

Last post.

Over and out.

Edit: I think I have heard others talk about you. At this site there is a new app that allows for us to ignore nuisance posters. Congrats. You just earned the first name on my ignore list.
When I die, I want to go like Grandpa did. He died in his sleep..... Not screaming and hollering like all the passengers in his car.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Redneck » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:49 am

...
Last edited by Redneck on Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby frugalcanuck » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:00 am

I really thought it was a great discussion and Im disapointed that it looks like it is over. I personally think the Wikileaks guy has a great idea. However I think nearly all the info released so far is gossip info and nothing really jaw dropping or game changing. I believe the idea of Wikileaks is great for democracy. Contrary to what the Conservative Party of Canada believes, an informed public is necessary for democracy to exist. If you dont want to live in a democracy then "vote" with your feet and move to another country so you will never have to vote again.

I dont think Wikileaks can cause as much harm to America and the rest of the world as The Patriot Act, The Federal Reserve, or Ben Bernanke for that matter. There are far greater evils out there. If Wikileaks inspires more people to go into jurnalism I think it has done a great service to the Western World.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Kurr » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:02 pm

To me it all boils down to money. The banks print money to buy everything they want. Theywant to "buy" a law into effect, freedom be danged, they do it. You know it, I know it, they know it.

They use that money to either put or "discover" politicians and people invital positions in ,let's say compromising situations. If the guy can'y be "bought" he gets "leaked"/"discovered" effectivlyruining any future in their field, or often times any meaningful one. I call it getting "Spitzered". Who was that, Connely, that was pushing for impeachment of bush? He dropped all thehearings and found something else to do when it was "found out" his wife was a councle women taking bribes.

My response although seemingly off topic was a way to exspouse a way to "clean" the system, that feeds the millitary industrial complex, which feeds the intelligence complex. Maybe thatis vice versa. But I definatlythink wikileaks is a front. Itis not "leaks". It is carefully placed intellegince, posted to ellicit several differing responses from many many layers in the game, far many varying reasons.

I do not watch tv but I now see on headlinesthat assange has been arrestedon rape charges, again, something to keep his name in the media and to draw more people to just "take a look" and see "what the fuss is about" and "who he really is". It is , IMHO a DISTRACTION.

They WANT YOU LOOKING THERE ! Why? How many knew the FED opened it's books Wednesday? Revealed how much money went to whom in the bailout? Did youknow 2 euro banks were the biggest recipients? Why?

Because wall st commited FRAUD. On the mortgages, they multi-sold, countrywide not sendingthe original notes, made all countrywide "secured" Instruments UNsecured, and those corps wanted their put backs, as I understand it. Theytried to take their money out of the investments and drained 550 billion in a few hours, remeber that? Supposed to have been a big mystery, but now we know.

And the bailout, was to buy back or "pay off" if you will the people who were defrauded. Us and our future generations were robbed of trillions and trillions to provide "hush money" to FORIEGN BANKS.

And what of the companies?!? It seems 2 years ago Harley Davidson got an injection of future taxpayer money , and they just announced what? THEY ARE BUILDING A PLANT IN INDIA. Also a part of the plan.

Offshoring jobs means that americans won't be ableto paytheir mortgages. Then the banks get to snap them up in rocket docket courts, with falsified or bad paperwork, and what? ADD THEM TO THEIR ASSEST COLUMNS TO STAY SOLVENT!!

The "American Public" have basically been robbed to provide criminals with money to pay reparationson crimes committed, then systemicly robbed to provide the criminals with capitol to stay in business.

We are fed a constant barrage of lies and misinformation sprinkled with just enough of the truth to make it believable to us. I think wikileaks is just a flavor of the day of that. To end such devices we must be able to identify the root causes. All roads lead to the FEDand central banks of the world.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby AGgressive Metal » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:31 pm

Personally, I do not know everything that was leaked, but I think its a good thing when we can find out our government has gone apeshit and is bombing all kinds of countries without even telling us. I don't know who is endangered except the careers of the corrupt incompetent "leaders" we have. Also it was interesting that most of the Gulf sheiks seem to be in favor of war with Iran.
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel
For nothyng is better than lyberte
For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world
-Aesop's Fables, Caxton edition 1484

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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:01 am

AGgressive Metal wrote:Personally, I do not know everything that was leaked, but I think its a good thing when we can find out our government has gone apeshit and is bombing all kinds of countries without even telling us. I don't know who is endangered except the careers of the corrupt incompetent "leaders" we have. Also it was interesting that most of the Gulf sheiks seem to be in favor of war with Iran.


Yeah, as long as it's our soldiers getting killed instead of their homeboys, they are cool with it.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby AGgressive Metal » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:14 pm

Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay wrote:
AGgressive Metal wrote:Personally, I do not know everything that was leaked, but I think its a good thing when we can find out our government has gone apeshit and is bombing all kinds of countries without even telling us. I don't know who is endangered except the careers of the corrupt incompetent "leaders" we have. Also it was interesting that most of the Gulf sheiks seem to be in favor of war with Iran.


Yeah, as long as it's our soldiers getting killed instead of their homeboys, they are cool with it.


Exactly. Screw them they have enough oil money to fund their own defense.
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel
For nothyng is better than lyberte
For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Cptindy » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:37 am

Well, as always a very spirited debate!

The many thoughts here signal an emotionally charged arena for those interested in the outcome of a once very specific destination.

"Freedom"

One investigating should always consider the agenda of actions.

Recent supposed "leaks" do seem suspicious in nature. The agenda IMHO is to divide and conquer our "Freedom" using your emotional perspective as ammunition.

Military and Politics! Whoa! Heavy stuff; both seem to have been overcome with commercialism and corporate greed. These entities use psychological propaganda purposely. The practice of morality of any sort is not considered in the efforts to control the one world mindset. We are all just pawns to be sacrificed in an effort to subdue any uprising that may interfere with a global objective.

Our Military or any Military for that matter should have one objective, Destruction of an opposing force. (Emphasis on opposing)

Instead of seeking alternative energy sources, those that desire profit and control are utilizing peoples in a military confrontation. Craftily playing one side against the other based on misguided intentions, skillfully twisting patriotism of each party while backroom negotiations determine profit and control among global elitists.

In our desire for peace, we as humans overlook the strength of greed. We overlook that which is readily apparent in our human behavior. We stand idle in our effort to appear "peaceful" while those more "greedily ambitious" take advantage of our "peaceful" intention. Ever so slowly eroding the the ground in which we stand, so that one day, like today, we awake not knowing where to place a firm step. Unsure exactly who is right and who is wrong?

If uncertainty is the outcome, then the agenda, is the consequence of idle behavior.
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Re: Why we are losing ground on almost all fronts.

Postby Treetop » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:01 pm

here my reply to the other wikileaks post.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I wish ALL our nations secrets became known. I am sure this would endanger many lives, but at this point I highly doubt it would endanger more then keeping the secrets does. We have powerful people building a police state up around us, using the left to build half, and the right to build the other half.

We have an indoctrinated, apathetic, dang near brainwashed public, that refuses to see the bigger picture. this goes global as well. Study, I mean actually study and dig into the working of the IMF. systematically enslaving the world. at first you might argue this was good for us. Heck it artificially inflated our life styles here in the states, that should of lowered after decades of watering it down. Look at the bigger picture though, now WE are being forced slowly but surely to take the same cuts, and offered the same BS as justifications.

It sure is a conspiracy, but it isnt "theory". Because though its hard to impossible to see the full scope it is easy to trace and see the outline of. there are powerful interests putting the globe under its thumb. Slowly working at dis empowering the global population. does this sound crazy to you? then study. Its all verifiable.

Its time to look behind the veils as far as Im concerned. that said I am not yet convinced this wiki thing is legitimate. Release things as if they are true secrets, and those wanting to peer behind the curtain assume they ARE legitimate secrets.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

further i would add that presidents since ATLEAST lincoln warned us of behind the scenes banking cabals. As strange as it sound you can actually trace its rise. you can also look at the stock crashes of 1903-07, and 1929..... these things coupled with taxes of the era, forced the bulk of americans into cities. It disempowered people, put them under centralized control. Then study the rise of industrial ag. GOVERNMENT not superiority created it. Its never been superior. in fact it kills the soil, which literally is starting to catch up to us, it IS all ready shutting down what used to be the most fertile lands. What does industrial ag do? Keeps farmers dependent on outside inputs!!!!! Trains them to think this is the ONLY way. this isnt remotely true actually. Or secure for that matter if you want to talk national security. government did this through subsidy, and literal propaganda. was it industry pushing gov? or gov building industry? hard to say, and it hardly matters.

Study the IMF, and how as in our country, people were systematically disempowered, through outright lies and social conditioning. In our case we were then sold a new form of "empowerment" which was empowered at all, using our economic rise, as a tool to dis empower other peoples. here we are decades later starting to see what turning the globe into slaves did, now we will have to lower to their level. In only going through a light outline here, but you can verify all this stuff if you dig deep enough. Is it government? the banks? the media? They are ALL complicit. There is a fight to own the will of our race my friends. If you dig deep enough it is VERY obvious. Its ultimate goal? I can only guess. But it was systematic, and upheld by massive propaganda at all levels.

Get into food production. If enough do this before our food system is purposely crashed, we might just retain the dream of liberty and self determination. they WANT and expect violence. this will justify the last building blocks of the police state. through the nanny state they have all ready convinced many to not even want or expect self determination. Its is considered archaic. take your lives back people, and set yourself up, to offer your neighbors their lives, instead of the soylent green bread lines being formed for them. It literally might be humanities last hope..... You can trace and verify all I said, although it isnt easy when most things are part of the propaganda machine but its still there if you look deep enough.....
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