Thogey... is it really this bad in Arizona?

[beauanderos]

borrowed this from BS:

Hello Ed,

I just thought I'd let you know that yesterday I went to Ambassador Jewelers here in Tucson to sell (sadly) a measly 10 ounces of silver. To do so I had to submit to having my right index finger inked and fingerprinted. When I told them (politely) that I would prefer not to have to have my finger inked up and pressed onto a piece of paper I was informed that they would be unable to purchase the silver. I asked them when this process of finger printing became a standard step they told me January 1st of this year.

Furthermore, a few months ago when I went to my bank (Wells Fargo) to cash a check from Ambassador (any time you cash in more then $600 of precious metals here in Tucson you are issued a check instead of cash) the teller at the bank asked me what the check was for. I asked the bank clerk to elaborate on what she meant by 'what the check was for'. The teller (a nice young lady) told me it was now 'required policy to ask everyone who was cashing or depositing a check from a jewelry store, coin store or a coin & stamp store'. I told this clerk that in all fairness it was none of the bank's business why the jewelry store issued me a check. At this the clerk went and got the bank manager. I told the bank manager that it was none of the bank's business why the jewelry store issued me a check. The bank manager told me that he was required to record this information otherwise he could not process the check. I asked him if he couldn't process the check or the bank couldn't process the check (I was starting to get irritated).

So I said I worked at the store and this was a paycheck, then said that I had robbed a home, stolen some jewelry and sold that to Ambassador, then I said I had bought them all lunch and this check was to cover my expenses. Admittedly I was being an fluffy but I was very agitated about this intrusion into my personal business. So we had this little stand off until I said (firmly and evenly) that I sold a couple of my watches. At this they processed my check.

Anyway, the reason for my email was to let you/others know that, at least in Tucson, when you sell any precious metals (even 10 measly ounces of silver), you will be fingerprinted.

And so it goes ... (down the toilet).

All the best,

Harry

[Thogey]

Yes it is that bad in AZ.

Please stay where you are. It's much better where you are now.

For real: this letter seems totally unbelievable, but I'm not in Tuscon and do cash business all the time.

Ask hobofinds.

[SilverDragon72]

Wow! I hope to never have to do business in Arizona. Finger printing for 10 ounces of silver?? I would have found that rather odd myself, and then the hassle at a bank too?

I'll stay where I am, thanks!

[agmoose]

I guess the sad thing is I can see this happening. A few years ago I would have never believed it......

[Rodebaugh]

Nude dirt for miles, Cactti, javelins, and whip scorpians......You can keep um.

Add proctal exam while doing business to the list.

[Pennybug]

Unbelievable really... unfortunately I belive it knowing the world we live in today. I would have honestly walked out of the bank and told them I'm going to deposit it into another bank that won't ask me questions like that. I probably would have started by asking them exactly where they had obtained the dollars that they were going to give me for the check 1st though.

As far as fingerprinting... not me! I'll sell or trade what little silver I have to the good folks on realcent or elsewhere before that happens. I guess it's just the begining throws of the mark of the beast to come.

[Thogey]

Nude dirt for miles, Cactti, javelins, and whip scorpians......You can keep um.

Add proctal exam while doing business to the list.

don't forget the snakes, tarantulas, illegal mexicans, joe arpaio, haboobs, wind and heat...

I'm sure there's more oh yea, low education spending.......it goes on and on

California is better. Go to California, check out the beach

[theo]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

[Sheba]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

Wow! This sure sounds bad. Do you think that the government really will go that way ... that is, pass a law(s) making it illegal to hold PMs? That's scary, but I guess I could believe it with the present administration and current financial circumstances of the government.

Please, you or anyone else who has insight into this kind of thing, share anything else that leads you to this conclusion. (Believe me, this is not to contend or argue at all ... it is an honest question from a concerned 'old guy' with not much in PMs, but wanting to be able to use what I have, if necessary)

Thank you very much .... you or anyone else for your thoughts!!!

[hobo finds]

Tucson City Code

ARTICLE V.
PAWNBROKERS AND SECONDHAND DEALERS*
__________

* Editors Note: Section 1 of Ord. No. 10254, adopted February 28, 2006, changed the title of this article from "Pawnbrokers, Secondhand Dealers and Junk Dealers" to "Pawnbrokers, Secondhand Dealers and Scrap Metal Dealers". Section 1 of Ord. No. 10854, adopted November 23, 2010, changed the title of this article from "Pawnbrokers, Secondhand Dealers and Scrap Metal Dealers" to "Pawnbrokers and Secondhand Dealers".

Cross References: License fee for pawnbrokers, § 19-28(109); license fee for junk collectors, § 19-28(79); license fee for junk dealers, § 19-28(84).

__________

Sec. 7-97. Definitions.
Sec. 7-97(1). In this article, the following terms shall have the meanings given in A.R.S. § 44-1621: identification document, loan, pawn ticket, pawn transaction, pawnbroker, pawnshop, pledged goods, pledgor, reportable transaction, and transaction date.

Sec. 7-97(2). Jewelry includes gold, platinum, silver, gold-filled or plated ware, diamonds and other precious or semiprecious stones whether mounted or unmounted, cultured pearls, and watches, clocks and goods, wares and merchandise commonly classified as jewelry and commonly offered for sale in jewelry stores.

Sec. 7-97(3). Secondhand dealer.

(a) Secondhand dealer means every person engaged in, conducting, managing or carrying on the business of buying, selling or otherwise dealing in secondhand goods, wares, merchandise or other articles, including:

(1) Coins, gems or semiprecious stones, jewelry, precious metals purchased from any person other than the original manufacturer or authorized distributor selling the same for money, credit or exchange, digital video discs, and all goods and articles that bear a serial number or owner applied number regardless of value; and

(2) All secondhand goods, wares, merchandise, or other articles that have a fair market value in excess of one hundred dollars ($100.00).

(b) The term defined in paragraph (a) includes:

(1) Every person engaged in the described business whether such business be the principal or sole business so carried on, managed or conducted, or be merely incidental to, in connection with or a branch or department of, some other business; and

(2) Any person or entity that conducts such activities at a location that is not that person's or entity's actual business address, such as a hotel, meeting hall, convention center, or other short term leased or rented location.

(c) The term secondhand dealer does not include organizations that are recognized as not for profit under the laws of this state or any other state, dealer to dealer transactions, or individuals or businesses conducting estate sales.

Sec. 7-97(4). Transaction includes only those items required to be reported pursuant to section 7-98(b) but does not include compact discs, furniture, and books.

(1953 Code, ch. 19, § 1; Ord. No. 4716, § 2, 11-28-77; Ord. No. 9587, § 1, 8-6-01; Ord. No. 10254, § 2, 2-28-06; Ord. No. 10790, § 1, 5-18-10, eff. 7-1-10; Ord. No. 10854, § 2, 11-23-10, eff. 7-1-10)

Sec. 7-98. Duty to report receipt of articles to police.
(a) A pawnbroker shall make and deliver to the chief of police a true, complete, and accurate report of each article the pawnbroker receives through a reportable transaction, as provided by A.R.S. § 44-1625.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any secondhand dealer, or any employee or agent thereof, to fail, neglect, or refuse to deliver to the chief of police, within two (2) business days after the receipt thereof, a full, true, and complete report of the following enumerated goods, wares, merchandise, or other articles received at the secondhand dealer's place of business on deposit or by purchase, trade, or consignment:

(1) Coins;

(2) Gems or semiprecious stones;

(3) Jewelry;

(4) Precious metals purchased from any person other than the original manufacturer or authorized distributor selling the same for money, credit or exchange;

(5) Digital video discs, expanded memory cards, and games where the total value of such goods exceeds fifty dollars ($50.00);

(6) Bicycles;

(7) Golf clubs;

(8) Ballistic vests, bullet-proof vests, and body armor;

(9) Any good or article that bears a serial number or owner applied number; and

(10) Collectable goods and articles that contain autographs, limited edition designations, or number sequences.

(c) Any single good or article or combination of goods or articles that have a fair market value in excess of one hundred dollars ($100.00) shall be reported under section 7-98(b) notwithstanding the fact that such good or article or combination of goods or articles are not enumerated in the provisions of such section.

(d) Transactions may not be split into smaller portions for the purpose of avoiding the reporting requirements of subsections (b)(5) or (c).

(Ord. No. 1053 Code, ch. 19, § 2; Ord. No. 2819, § 1, 10-11-65; Ord. No. 4716, § 3, 11-28-77; Ord. No. 8176, § 1, 12-13-93; Ord. No. 9587, § 2, 8-6-01; Ord. No. 10254, § 3, 2-28-06; Ord. No. 10790, § 1, 5-18-10, eff. 7-1-10; Ord. No. 10854, §§ 3, 4, 11-23-10, eff. 7-1-10)

Sec. 7-99. Contents of report to police.
The report required by section 7-98 shall include the following:

(1) The last, first and middle name of the pledgor or seller;

(2) The permanent address and telephone number, if applicable, of the pledgor or seller;

(3) The physical description of the pledgor or seller including height, weight, hair and eye color, sex, race, date of birth, prominent scars and other distinguishing features;

(4) The number and type of the identification document presented by the pledgor or seller;

(5) An accurate, legible description of each item pledged or sold, including the manufacturer's name, model number, serial number, caliber, size, type of item and any owner applied number, inscription or monogram;

(6) The pawnbroker's or secondhand dealer's name and address and the initials or identifying number of the employee who received the item;

(7) The date and time of the initial pawn or purchase transaction;

(8) The type of transaction and initial pawn ticket number;

(9) The amount loaned or paid in the transaction;

(10) A fingerprint of the pledgor or seller only as required by state law.

(1953 Code, ch. 19, § 3; Ord. No. 4716, § 4, 11-28-77; Ord. No. 9587, § 3, 8-6-01; Ord. No. 10254, § 4, 2-28-06; Ord. No. 10790, § 1, 5-18-10, eff. 7-1-10)

[JerrySpringer]

Is larceny in AZ so bad that the law wants to try to discourage it by attaching strings to PM transactions? I'm glad copper cents are still below the radar.

[chris6084]

Nude dirt for miles, Cactti, javelins, and whip scorpians......You can keep um.

Add proctal exam while doing business to the list.

don't forget the snakes, tarantulas, illegal mexicans, joe arpaio, haboobs, wind and heat...

I'm sure there's more oh yea, low education spending.......it goes on and on

California is better. Go to California, check out the beach

Sheriff Joe alone is reason NOT to live in Arizona.

[njo.electric]

Coin shops fingerprint if you're selling in Utah too.

[OneBiteAtATime]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

Wow! This sure sounds bad. Do you think that the government really will go that way ... that is, pass a law(s) making it illegal to hold PMs? That's scary, but I guess I could believe it with the present administration and current financial circumstances of the government.

Please, you or anyone else who has insight into this kind of thing, share anything else that leads you to this conclusion. (Believe me, this is not to contend or argue at all ... it is an honest question from a concerned 'old guy' with not much in PMs, but wanting to be able to use what I have, if necessary)

Thank you very much .... you or anyone else for your thoughts!!!

[OtusLotus]

Its the same deal in NJ.. my buddy works at a jewelry store, and anyone that comes in to sell jewelry to him, he has to get a picture ID, and then photocopy the items along with the id, fill out paperwork, and then fax it to the local police station.

I don't think it is the end of the world coming.. it is just the govt trying to prevent the thieves from cashing in.

As for the bank asking questions..i can't explain that.

BTW.. I lived in AZ,.. and I LOVED IT!!! The mountains, the cacti, the sun, JOE ARPAIO, it was all great!

BTW,... there are illegal Mexicans EVERYWHERE!!!

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

With time, you learn who to deal with. Almost always, sellers of PMs have demanded cash on the barrel head for their PM's. Today, that is all I will accept in return. I make no bones about telling them this, too. "I always paid you cash for the goods, cash is all I will accept in return." The ones who really want the PMs find ways to make it work. Only one has balked. I don't do business with them anymore.

[JerrySpringer]

With time, you learn who to deal with. Almost always, sellers of PMs have demanded cash on the barrel head for their PM's. Today, that is all I will accept in return. I make no bones about telling them this, too. "I always paid you cash for the goods, cash is all I will accept in return." The ones who really want the PMs find ways to make it work. Only one has balked. I don't do business with them anymore.

Interesting. The law, in attempt to protect against thefts, I guess, also will drive a wedge between sellers and buying shops. The dialog over the long run may go like this:

Seller: "What do you mean you need all this ID and stuff and will pay me in check
for these '64 Kennedy half dollars?"

Buying Shop: "It's the law."

Seller: "Well, at least pay me 95% of spot then."

Buying Shop: "Our prices are fair. I'll give you 60% of spot".

Seller: "Not enough compensation for allowing government to have an electronic
record on me. I'll get more money selling through craigslist or
RealCent.org. Thank you and good day."


Funny how that might turn out. It could very well solidify the member groups like RC and others into buying clubs. Could you imagine local chapters of RC? Lol.

[tedandcam]

Nude dirt for miles, Cactti, javelins, and whip scorpians......You can keep um.

Add proctal exam while doing business to the list.

You forgot to mention wide grout joints

[theo]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

Wow! This sure sounds bad. Do you think that the government really will go that way ... that is, pass a law(s) making it illegal to hold PMs? That's scary, but I guess I could believe it with the present administration and current financial circumstances of the government.

Please, you or anyone else who has insight into this kind of thing, share anything else that leads you to this conclusion. (Believe me, this is not to contend or argue at all ... it is an honest question from a concerned 'old guy' with not much in PMs, but wanting to be able to use what I have, if necessary)

Thank you very much .... you or anyone else for your thoughts!!!

Keep in mind that holding significant amounts of PMs as a form of savings is an act of distrust (perhaps even hostility) toward our current financial system. Also remember that holding PMs signifies a willingness to conduct commerce in PMs. If this practice becomes too widespread it can pose a threat to the current system. Does anyone think that such a threat will go unchallenged? I think what we are seeing in Az is the beginnings of a low key approach to stigmatizing and intimidating those who hold (and could potentially transact business in) PMs.

If they simply wanted to deter thieves, copying the seller's driver's license would suffice. However the finger printing and the bank inquiry/interrogation is a not-so-subtle way of treating PM sellers as criminals because that is how they are likely viewed. If this practice becomes the norm, then the thieves will be the first to move to Craigs List and even E Bay giving the government an excuse to regulate online transactions.

[shinnosuke]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

Wow! This sure sounds bad. Do you think that the government really will go that way ... that is, pass a law(s) making it illegal to hold PMs? That's scary, but I guess I could believe it with the present administration and current financial circumstances of the government.

Please, you or anyone else who has insight into this kind of thing, share anything else that leads you to this conclusion. (Believe me, this is not to contend or argue at all ... it is an honest question from a concerned 'old guy' with not much in PMs, but wanting to be able to use what I have, if necessary)

Thank you very much .... you or anyone else for your thoughts!!!

Keep in mind that holding significant amounts of PMs as a form of savings is an act of distrust (perhaps even hostility) toward our current financial system. Also remember that holding PMs signifies a willingness to conduct commerce in PMs. If this practice becomes too widespread it can pose a threat to the current system. Does anyone think that such a threat will go unchallenged? I think what we are seeing in Az is the beginnings of a low key approach to stigmatizing and intimidating those who hold (and could potentially transact business in) PMs.

If they simply wanted to deter thieves, copying the seller's driver's license would suffice. However the finger printing and the bank inquiry/interrogation is a not-so-subtle way of treating PM sellers as criminals because that is how they are likely viewed. If this practice becomes the norm, then the thieves will be the first to move to Craigs List and even E Bay giving the government an excuse to regulate online transactions.

Right, the govt is ready to go house to house looking for legally obtained weapons belonging to law-abiding citizens
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020373291_westneat17xml.html, but we can't put enough troops on the border to keep out illegals.

Guns, check.
PMs, check.
Food storage, check.
That pretty much makes me Enemy #1.

[beauanderos]

Guns, check.
PMs, check.
Food storage, check.
That pretty much makes me Enemy #1.

Sure hope you aren't Hispanic, too

[shinnosuke]

Guns, check.
PMs, check.
Food storage, check.
That pretty much makes me Enemy #1.

Sure hope you aren't Hispanic, too

Well, for some reason one of my Scottish ancestors, four generations back, was named Pedro, but there was no Hispanic heritage in my line that I could discover going back further.

Vote for Pedro.

[Bigsarge]

I had to endure the misery of renting a uhaul a few years back. When you check it out, U-haul reqiures a fingerprint for that too. I could only imagine if I loaded it full of PMs. (wishfull thinking)

[neilgin1]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

those, unfortunately,are wise words. it seems that in their game plan. But we do have one attribute that trumps all of theirs...they're elephants, ungainly, large, slow.....we're coyotes, quick, mobile, know how to move at night.......our size might be a weakness, but its really a strength.

i also think one has to know how to move in the black and grey markets....thats imperative, i dont want to go into details.

i was thinking of slabbing and flipping hi grade, slabbed numi's...one of the Wise Council here, was giving me encouragement, pointer's...a guy we all know, who's counsel and knowledge base is first rate....and i been really giving it a lot of deliberation.....not gonna....too many potholes in the road, and this op just hammers that point home.

now theo, as far as what you see in the future, how you think they'll implement?....i been sitting here trying to figure how it'll go down, and for the life of me ,i'm stumped...you or anybody got any ideas how these commies bustards'll try and work this thing?

one thing i can think of is, they'll try and nake it profitable to be a snitch...the counter measure to that is make it be a nightmare to be a snitch, which isnt the funniest thing to think about, but at least there is a use for old tires.

which makes me cross, because my default setting is one of love, kindness and laughter, not having to deal with folks that wish ruin upon my family.

thanks for the input theo. your bud, n.

(right after addition---i started re-reading after theo's post, and i gotta tell you guys, this is one of the threads, that make this , in my opinion, the best discussion forum on the net...becoz thank God, we can discuss very important topics, life changing topics, without immature,imprudent drama. we 'self police'....for myself?...if i ever get out of line? please dont hesitate to call me on it.....i love this place, gives me hope, in a very unsettling time.)

[neilgin1]

I think this should serve as notice that government at all levels will make it difficult for those who hold physical PMs to benefit from their investment. I don't know what the justification will be, but I believe an attempt will be made in the near future to make holding a large amount of PMs (certainly gold and possibly silver) illegal. A move towards a cashless society would be a logical step.

Wow! This sure sounds bad. Do you think that the government really will go that way ... that is, pass a law(s) making it illegal to hold PMs? That's scary, but I guess I could believe it with the present administration and current financial circumstances of the government.

Please, you or anyone else who has insight into this kind of thing, share anything else that leads you to this conclusion. (Believe me, this is not to contend or argue at all ... it is an honest question from a concerned 'old guy' with not much in PMs, but wanting to be able to use what I have, if necessary)

Thank you very much .... you or anyone else for your thoughts!!!

oh drat sheba!! i should have waited to post, coz you asked the same thing in essence that i did...although with nuch fewer words than i, but i always believe in using 10 words, when one or two are all thats needed......(laughing)