Preps ideas for urbanites

[Nickelless]

I'll start with this link from the old board:

http://realcent.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~7022.asp

The one thing I wouldn't budge on as my fiancee and I were shopping for a house is that it had to have a basement--and I hit the jackpot. There's almost no indication from the outside that there's a full in-ground basement except for the two windows at ground level (which I plan to cover with those plastic bubble thingies--and in case someone pries them off to try to gain entry, they'll see stickers on the windows that say "THIS HOUSE PROTECTED BY SMITH AND WESSON"). But basements are probably urbanites' best friends when it comes to prepping, because you can store a bunch of stuff out of sight of prying eyes. The door leading down to the basement in the house I'm trying to buy is actually in the floor of a large utility closet and it can be easily hidden with a decent-sized piece of carpet or a rug. Here's a view of the basement--the clutter is the current owner's and will soon be gone. I've probably got a good 500 or 600 square feet of usable space just in the basement:

[Caridad]

Great! Why don't we have basements here in Cali?

[misteroman]

I have a 10,000 sq ft basement underneth the motel with no windows at all and most don't even know its there. What should be hide Chad?
I'm thinking 50-100 tons of small copper colored discs

[Nickelless]

I have a 10,000 sq ft basement underneth the motel with no windows at all and most don't even know its there. What should be hide Chad?
I'm thinking 50-100 tons of small copper colored discs

Maybe you can sell a few tons of small copper discs to fund your hidey-hole, then put everything else behind the copper discs. Seriously, figure out first what your most likely disaster would be that you might encounter, then work to protect your preps and your people from that disaster first, then the next-most-likely, etc. The house I'm buying is a 110-year-old wood frame structure (making fire probably my main concern--even though all of the wiring is updated), but as you can see from at least the photo above, the basement is solid concrete block. What I have in mind (at least until someone tells me this isn't feasible) is to create a large-ish sort of walled-off area in the back-right corner of the basement (the back-right corner in this photo anyway) where I could store food and other preps in a fire-resistant or at least heat-resistant safe room. I've been doing a little bit of research on materials for building firewalls (although I'll leave the actual building to, well, builders) and am picturing a metal-framed storage area encased in drywall and/or sheetrock and maybe other heat-dispersing materials--maybe some kind of copper structure could draw heat away from the storage area and ground it to an outside point, similar to a lightning rod? Of course, it's going to be another 27 days before I take possession of the house (not that I'm counting ) and I have everything in the world to do before then, so maybe my fireproof hidey-hole construction will have to wait at least a few weeks, but to make a short story long, if that gives you any ideas, Derek, I say go for it! I'll let you know what other ideas come my way.

[silversaddle1]

One thing to remember about basements. They flood. If there is a broken pipe and no one's around, where will all that water go? If your house burns and the FD puts it out, where does all that water go? If you have a real wet rain season and you get a supercell parked over your house, where does the runoff go? Just keep that in mind when you build your stash in the basement under a house.

[Nickelless]

I'm putting my dry goods in sealed mylar bags inside 5-gallon buckets in the corner of the basement farthest away from the weakest wall, which appears to be the front wall--had a small leak during a massive rainstorm (more than half an inch of rain in an hour) a few days ago where I could see water literally trickling in through a crack. I think the problem wasn't the rain per se but the fact that the ground was saturated and couldn't absorb the rain quickly enough, as the trickle of water stopped as the rain intensity eased up. Having said that, I'm in the process of getting quotes on having the basement sealed. But thanks for the heads-up, Silversaddle.

[68Camaro]

Any suggestions on affordable source of supply for metallized mylar bags?

[Nickelless]

Any suggestions on affordable source of supply for metallized mylar bags?

I've gotten all of mine from SorbentSystems.com and have been happy with their prices. I plan to place another order soon. I've also got their Snorkel-Vac vacuum sealer that I've been extremely happy with. If you need any tips on vacuum-sealing stuff, let me know.

Incidentally, I don't use oxygen absorbers in anything I vacuum-seal because once most of the air is sucked out, there's very little residual oxygen left. You can see how tight the seal is on these bags of beans--on the bag in the upper-right part of the picture, you can see the contour of the beans. That's pretty tight!

[68Camaro]

Thanks, I'll check that out. I have a foodsaver vac that I'm experimenting with, but it requires channelized bags, though it does have an attachment for pulling on virtually anything else, and I'm not sure if it can both pull and seal a non-channelized bag.

Any comments on use of food-grade (NOT the swimming pool filter type) diatomaecous earth in dry goods (beans, wheat berries, etc) to kill pests? It's been strongly strongly recommended on several other prep blogs so I bought a small bag to play with. It's much cheaper per pound, in bulk at feed stores. Apparently some people are even recommending use of it as a daily dietary supplement, but I haven't actually tried consuming any yet myself.

[Nickelless]

I hadn't heard about using diatomaecous earth in dry goods. If you vacuum-seal your bags, IF there are any critters in the dry goods they should soon suffocate. Alternately, you might try putting bags of stuff outside in our current winter weather to kill bugs. Then again, you could also just cook what you have and skim off any bugs that rise to the top in the cooking process. I know it sounds gross, but how many other societies actually make bugs a part of their diet? It's probably not a big deal (not you, Deal )as long as the bugs are dead.

[68Camaro]

There isn't much bug killing weather in Florida. Which is both good and bad. And not sure even freezing weather will kill the bug eggs, etc. All grains have bugs and/or their eggs in them, it's just a matter of time and environment as to what happens. That's the main reason why flour has a shelf-life, and why it's a good idea to look into your container each time you pull it down it to see if there is anything moving in it.

The DE supposedly kills them because on a microscopic level the crystals are is very sharp and when they pick it up while moving around it cuts into their bodies and they dry up and die. If you let the bugs run amok in Florida you'll open the bag and there will be no grain left, just bugs and their feces.

If you're not using the grain for anything else but cooking, it's fine to completely suffocate it in a full vaccum. But some suggest keeping some of the grains/seeds live/able to germinate, for several possible reasons, which requires that the grains not be killed. Two of those uses would be 1) for seed crop, and 2) for use as sprouts.

I'm no expert on this, just passing on info I've found. I can post a couple of links if you're interested in chasing this down some more.

[Spikeanator6982]

68camaro..so you saying the vacuum sealed wheat won't germinate after its open and planted? I have found vacuum sealing and then put in fridge to be a recommend seed storage technique.

[68Camaro]

I re-read the blog that I saw that in - and it implies that seeds need access to oxygen. After seeing your note, other searching indicates that the critical parameters are dryness and temperature. There seems to be some consensus that sealing in metalized mylar bags with desiccant, stored in the frig or freezer, is the recommended practice. Suggestion is that they shouldn't see the freezer until they've been dried to a specific level - this prevents the cells from bursting when the water changes to ice. What is less clear is the effect of vaccum.

As to best practice, in summary, in the FAQ at the following, http://www.ars-grin.gov/ncgrp/center_faq.htm#Q15 I found

What is the best way to store seeds? Dry seeds to about 20 % RH and store in vapor-proof containers in a cold place like a home freezer.

Other links

http://www.seedforsecurity.com/article.php?articleid=27
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/s ... ed0998.htm
http://www.survivalseedbank.com/
http://readynutrition.com/resources/sec ... _30122009/

I had a hard time finding a good resource that seemed to know what it was talking about with regard the oxygen issue. I finally found this one.

http://www.nsl.fs.fed.us/Chapter%204.pdf

Excerpting from it, it turns out that it *depends* on the seed type.

Atmosphere. Reduction of oxygen levels will slow
metabolism and increase longevity of seeds, but it is not
practical to regulate this factor precisely in operational storage
situations. In past years, seeds of Populus L. species
were often stored in vacuum desiccators to extend storage
life; the beneficial effect in this case was reduction of oxygen
for metabolism. (Proper drying and refrigeration have
replaced vacuum storage for Populus now.) Recalcitrant
seeds, with their active metabolisms, require oxygen to such
a degree that it is quickly depleted in airtight storage containers,
and the seeds die. Any recalcitrant seeds must be
stored in containers that afford free access to the surrounding
atmosphere.

You'll need the following to read on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_seed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recalcitrant_seed
http://www.ars-grin.gov/ncgrp/center_faq.htm#Q20

From the above:

What is a recalcitrant seed? A recalcitrant seed, in contrast to most crop seeds, is a seed that cannot survive drying and so cannot survive in the freezer. Preservation of recalcitrant seeds requires a procedure that prevents damage by drying or freezing. This has been accomplished in several species by excising the growing part of the seed, optimizing the water content, and cooling very rapidly. Recalcitrant seeds are frequently produced by temperate-zone forest trees, riparian species, and plants from the tropics. Examples of recalcitrant seeds are oak seeds, wild rice, and citrus.

In summary, it says....

Storage Recommendations
Orthodox Seeds
All orthodox seeds should be stored in moisture-proof,
sealed containers with seed moisture contents of 5 to 10%.
If the period of storage will be 3 years or less for true orthodox
species, or 2 years or less for sub-orthodox species,
temperatures of 0 to 5 °C are sufficient. For longer periods
of storage for both types of orthodox species, freezers (–18
to –20 °C) should be used.

Temperate-Recalcitrant Seeds
Temperate recalcitrant seeds should be stored with moisture
contents at least as high as that present when the mature
seeds were shed from the tree. (Refer to genus chapters in
this manual for information on individual species.) This
moisture level must be maintained throughout storage,
which may require occasional rewetting of the seeds.
Temperatures should range from 0 to 5 °C, although 1 or 2
degrees below freezing will not harm most species.
Containers should be basically impermeable to moisture
loss, but must allow some gas exchange with the atmosphere.
Polyethylene bags with a wall thickness of 0.075 to
1.0 mm (3 to 7 mils) are suitable. Some oak acorns can be
stored for 3 years in this fashion (table 3), but some viability
will be lost. For other recalcitrant species, few data are
available.

Tropical-Recalcitrant Seeds
Storage of tropical recalcitrant seeds is done in the same
manner as storage of temperate species, except that temperatures
must be kept at a high level. There are differences
among species but the lower limits are generally 12 to 20
°C. Successful storage for more than 1 year should not be
expected.

[JadeDragon]

Here is a little guide to self sufficiency for urbanites http://www.infobarrel.com/Good_Ideas_Fo ... ufficiency

[Nickelless]

Great link, Cameron!

[getdong]

Personally I think prepping is prety pointless if your in an urban environment. Yeah maybe have 3 days supplies for smaller issues, disasters, etc but if SHTF for real buildings may be on fire, people riading others houses, etc. YOu can really be safe or hold down the fort so to speak in a heavily populated area with lots of people, homes so close together etc.

[SilverEye]

If you're really in an urban environ, like a hi-rise or inner city: A fire safe with a couple backpacks / duffel bags pre-stuffed with your precious metals, some cash, your gov't papers (birth certificates, SS card, passport), guns, spare ammunition, keys to everything you own and everyone else's stuff that you have keys for, hammer, screwdriver, pair of pliers, duct tape, Swiss Army knife, water purification tablets, 1st aid kit, matches, and a pack of cigarettes even if you don't smoke. Sitting next to it, a box of heavy duty black garbage bags; stuff these full of a change of clothes, blankets, extra pair of shoes, a bottle of water, a granola bar, and a bar of soap if you need to bug out in 5 minutes. If you're 10 stories up with no power, no water, no elevator, clogged toilet, food spoiling in the fridge, roving band of thugs outside, you're not going to last long unless you gtfo.

I used to live on the first floor just outside downtown Seattle. My disaster plan was 1) load shotgun 2) drive away fast.

[Treetop]

I re-read the blog that I saw that in - and it implies that seeds need access to oxygen. After seeing your note, other searching indicates that the critical parameters are dryness and temperature. There seems to be some consensus that sealing in metalized mylar bags with desiccant, stored in the frig or freezer, is the recommended practice. Suggestion is that they shouldn't see the freezer until they've been dried to a specific level - this prevents the cells from bursting when the water changes to ice. What is less clear is the effect of vaccum.

As to best practice, in summary, in the FAQ at the following, http://www.ars-grin.gov/ncgrp/center_faq.htm#Q15 I found

What is the best way to store seeds? Dry seeds to about 20 % RH and store in vapor-proof containers in a cold place like a home freezer.

Other links

http://www.seedforsecurity.com/article.php?articleid=27
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/s ... ed0998.htm
http://www.survivalseedbank.com/
http://readynutrition.com/resources/sec ... _30122009/

I had a hard time finding a good resource that seemed to know what it was talking about with regard the oxygen issue. I finally found this one.

http://www.nsl.fs.fed.us/Chapter%204.pdf

Excerpting from it, it turns out that it *depends* on the seed type.

Atmosphere. Reduction of oxygen levels will slow
metabolism and increase longevity of seeds, but it is not
practical to regulate this factor precisely in operational storage
situations. In past years, seeds of Populus L. species
were often stored in vacuum desiccators to extend storage
life; the beneficial effect in this case was reduction of oxygen
for metabolism. (Proper drying and refrigeration have
replaced vacuum storage for Populus now.) Recalcitrant
seeds, with their active metabolisms, require oxygen to such
a degree that it is quickly depleted in airtight storage containers,
and the seeds die. Any recalcitrant seeds must be
stored in containers that afford free access to the surrounding
atmosphere.

You'll need the following to read on...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_seed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recalcitrant_seed
http://www.ars-grin.gov/ncgrp/center_faq.htm#Q20

From the above:

What is a recalcitrant seed? A recalcitrant seed, in contrast to most crop seeds, is a seed that cannot survive drying and so cannot survive in the freezer. Preservation of recalcitrant seeds requires a procedure that prevents damage by drying or freezing. This has been accomplished in several species by excising the growing part of the seed, optimizing the water content, and cooling very rapidly. Recalcitrant seeds are frequently produced by temperate-zone forest trees, riparian species, and plants from the tropics. Examples of recalcitrant seeds are oak seeds, wild rice, and citrus.

In summary, it says....

Storage Recommendations
Orthodox Seeds
All orthodox seeds should be stored in moisture-proof,
sealed containers with seed moisture contents of 5 to 10%.
If the period of storage will be 3 years or less for true orthodox
species, or 2 years or less for sub-orthodox species,
temperatures of 0 to 5 °C are sufficient. For longer periods
of storage for both types of orthodox species, freezers (–18
to –20 °C) should be used.

Temperate-Recalcitrant Seeds
Temperate recalcitrant seeds should be stored with moisture
contents at least as high as that present when the mature
seeds were shed from the tree. (Refer to genus chapters in
this manual for information on individual species.) This
moisture level must be maintained throughout storage,
which may require occasional rewetting of the seeds.
Temperatures should range from 0 to 5 °C, although 1 or 2
degrees below freezing will not harm most species.
Containers should be basically impermeable to moisture
loss, but must allow some gas exchange with the atmosphere.
Polyethylene bags with a wall thickness of 0.075 to
1.0 mm (3 to 7 mils) are suitable. Some oak acorns can be
stored for 3 years in this fashion (table 3), but some viability
will be lost. For other recalcitrant species, few data are
available.

Tropical-Recalcitrant Seeds
Storage of tropical recalcitrant seeds is done in the same
manner as storage of temperate species, except that temperatures
must be kept at a high level. There are differences
among species but the lower limits are generally 12 to 20
°C. Successful storage for more than 1 year should not be
expected.

Where did you get the idea seeds should be stored with desiccant? Dont do it! You will kill your seeds! They will die if they get to dry. Actually I wouldnt freeze them at all. There are several ways to kill your seeds if you mess it up. Most important is to let the container come to romm temp before you open it after it was in the freezer. Otherwise mousture will rush in and potentially harm the seeds.

Vacuum IS effective. I use canning jars and the connection food saver saves with a hand pump for bleeding the air from brake systems to vacuum out mine. I only bother with things Im will be storing a few years or the very short lived seeds. You cant mess up with vacuum storage but you can with freezing so Im always baffled why this is often pushed as the best method. I know many gardeners who failed with freezing.

For the record I have a seed collection rivaling the seedbanks of all but the largest countries. Im a plant breeder who believes that such things as preserving plant germplasm will likely fall to the wayside to more immediate issues so I have the varieties needed for my breeding work NOW even though I wont need most of it for years. I know several seed company owners and other breeders and even a few from seedbanks and such.

Best way to save seeds is in a dry paper bag you plant the next year. If bean weevils and similar seed destroying insects are around either make sure the seeds froze that winter (if off grid) or have a manual way to vacuum seal the seeds to kill the insects that way. If you need longer term storage go to vacuum packing them.

As far as recalcitrant seeds. who cares is my take. If you bought them most likely they were dead before you got them. If you collected them yourself then you have the trees they came from close by and if you fail to plant them that year get some fruit to start some the next is my take. there are many of those.

If your storing them in a freezer or in vacuum they must be dried to the right levels first. The fool proof way is simply process and clean them as you always would and let them dry in an out of the way place for several weeks. no need to get fancy. This is why they list you a range, because they will dry down farther for instance in my new mexico area compared to floridas higher humidity... point being is if you give them enough time they will naturally dry down to adequate levels without having to think about it besides of course keeping them in a dry place. Doesnt have to be complicated at all. Dont use desiccant! Dont use a dehydrator! They can be used effectively if you know what your doing but you might kill your seeds as well. All without offering better results then sitting in a dry corner of a closet or whatever.

If your only saving seeds for 1-2 seasons in most cases you dont need any help at all. I just keep mine on an unheated open porch. Besides very short lived seeds of which there are not many this is fine for almost anything youll find in a home garden.

Vacuum sealing is the best way to go beyond that. Fail proof as long as you let them dry long enough and then make sure your seal was good. We have seeds that were still viable stored in a variety of low tech airtight conditions (such as inside gourds with treesap over them inside caves) that are still viable hundreds of years later.

If your in a place without freezes and your prepping for off grid get a manual way to vacuum out your seeds so you can kill the insects. Its the most effective off grid method I know off. Otherwise store them in several spots and WAY more then you need in case your seeds get hit hard be weevils or the like one year in an off grid situation. although most years you should be fine doing nothing.

[68Camaro]

I don't know squat about this but I get the idea from your post that you didn't actually read the content I posted.

[Treetop]

No I didnt read it. I was responding to what you wrote rather then the links. I already know the topic. You said desiccant was advised. this is not a good idea at all. airtight with desiccant? Youll kill your seeds like that. Beyond responding to that and vacuum sealing versus freezing I just went over the basics. Why what did I miss? I dont care who said to do that, they are dead wrong.

[68Camaro]

You said desiccant was advised.

No, *I* didn't say it. I said "they" said it. I posted a link to a government report and quoted extracts from it that described supposedly beneficial effects on one seed type. It may be generally bad advice, but maybe you could respond to that reference specifically.

[Treetop]

Im not seeing anyone suggesting to use desiccants from your government links. Where is it exactly? (it doesnt say that in your quoted text by the way you mis read it I believe if you thought it did, I only see it in your words unless I am missing it somewhere else in the text??) Im baffled by this actually. On the link you quoted material from I see the text mention that overly drying seeds will kill them. Desiccant in a sealed container would indeed do that.

You had said in one post that your not sure that vacuum sealing seeds will kill insects. It indeed does, to which someone asked you about that point as they listed the most common method of longterm seed storage for a home gardener. (for which I elaborated for easier and or off grid methods for both storage and breaking insects cycles as well as how to safely use cold storage) You then elaborated on recalcitrant seeds which arent very common and not relevant to most gardeners. The info about them isnt relevant to most seeds. ( I have wheat and other grains by the way direct from seedbanks in airtight seedpacks designed to last many decades to answer the question of whether vacuum is acceptable--for the record anyone here can get those on a technicality. Strangely its easier to access several foreign seedbank then it is our own countries, due to some international agreement.)

The quoted text you had for "orthodox" seeds which I would assume is more important to everyone since it is all most of us will ever deal with was fine, but vacuum sealing will serve most just as well and is easier to do, especially off grid. Ive known three people who have ruined valuable seed with issues from freezing, so I dont like it. Ive known zero who had long term storage fail that just used vacuum. If your growing out the seed every few years none of this really matters unless you want to use vacuum or freezing to kill insects, which is rarely mandatory by the way. Both are indeed effective. I only know a single gardener who lost seeds over the short term to insects and that was in the middle of a large influx of them into his area. If the grid goes down for reference we will likely see increased insect pressure the first 1-2 years and much decreased levels from that point. So beyond the first year or two in an off grid situation you wouldnt really NEED a way to kill the insects to ensure you had seed the next season.

Im sorry you seem to think I spoke out of turn. this topic even causes much confusion on every gardening board Im on. My knowledge comes directly from seed company owners and long time plant breeders whom rely more then most of us on such storage. Most of whom still use cold storage because it is easier to deal with presuming you know what your doing.

[68Camaro]

Im not seeing anyone suggesting to use desiccants from your government links. Where is it exactly?

From the longer post above - text bold-italics underline...

I had a hard time finding a good resource that seemed to know what it was talking about with regard the oxygen issue. I finally found this one.

http://www.nsl.fs.fed.us/Chapter%204.pdf

Excerpting from it, it turns out that it *depends* on the seed type.

Atmosphere. Reduction of oxygen levels will slow
metabolism and increase longevity of seeds, but it is not
practical to regulate this factor precisely in operational storage
situations. In past years, seeds of Populus L. species
were often stored in vacuum desiccators to extend storage
life; the beneficial effect in this case was reduction of oxygen
for metabolism. (Proper drying and refrigeration have
replaced vacuum storage for Populus now.)

[Treetop]

yeah I figured that is the part you were seeing after I went back to read it. no where is it telling someone to stick their seeds into sealed containers with desiccant. They have massive systems with exacting lab quality conditions and the ability to measure exact seed moisture content. Do it if you like but your much more likely to kill them then add longevity.

[68Camaro]

Thanks for looking at it. This went a bit off-topic, but maybe you could post into a separate thread on seed storage - would be helpful?