Fake 90% Silver

[TwoPenniesEarned]

Just found a very cool product that can be used to test US 90% silver dollars, as well as most gold and silver bullion coins.

http://www.thefisch.com

[68Camaro]

The Fisch has been around, and is all well and good for what it is, but it is only a size/mass checker. If they are successfully duplicating size/mass within a tolerance, then this won't catch the better fakes.

It is far more useful with gold since gold is so much more difficult to correctly match size/mass at same time. Not so much with silver.

[Saabman]

I wonder if something like this might work?

http://www.worldoftest.com/goldtester.htm

[scyther]

Damn, even Canadian 80% is being faked, as expected... anyone know of any fake 40%? I'm assuming the answer is yes... I don't understand how the market isn't already totally flooded with fakes. Here's a disturbing thought: What if this stuff starts making it's way into circulation

[Morsecode]

Alibaba has been in business since 1994. No telling what they've managed to export in 20 years. But, on the bright side, they are ISO9001 certified

Looks like they counterfeit Chevys, too:

http://m.alibaba.com/product-gs/6051296 ... k.html?s=p

Obviously, they have no fear of US authorities. Gee, I wonder if I advertised "souvenir" $100 bills on Craigslist if the Secret Service would pay me a visit?

I mean, I could almost understand the SS overlooking 50 year old silver coins, but ASE's with modern dates are considered legal tender.

Corruption or incompetence?

[68Camaro]

Alibaba is just the middle-man.

Looking through the listings the vast majority aren't intended to be serious fakes. They are cheap die-cast replicas which, while they should be illegal, are actually easy to sort out with some moderate discrimination. They have the wrong size, or wrong weight, etc. Most of them are made by taking molds off of real coins - whether a literal splash or a laser scan - and from which a tool is created from which they can be mass produced by the thousands out of cheap alloy at small cost.

However, that they would even do these suggests that they have no compunction against doing better fakes, if the market is there.

I did NOT (yet) see a serious attempt at a silver Kennedy half of any year, whether 64 90% or 65-69 40%. Anyone see one I missed?

If there isn't one there yet, then that market may not yet be contaminated. Etc for other markets. (The walking liberty market seems to be hard hit.)

It's worth keeping tabs on these and others so we can track what items are being counterfeited as of what date.

[daviscfad]

Just tell that little North Korean warmonger Lil Kim that the Chinese are counterfeiting their currency.

Is that slickeast behind that rock?

[Chief]

I did NOT (yet) see a serious attempt at a silver Kennedy half of any year, whether 64 90% or 65-69 40%. Anyone see one I missed?

Ray's got one...
Subject: Fake 90% Silver
That coin could have ended up in anyone's stack. Counterfeit '64 Ken's will be popping up more and more when silver keeps going up. It does worry me. I love the '64 Ken. Nice, full-weight 90% silver.

[thedrifter]

So do the better examples pass the "ring test"?

[TwoPenniesEarned]

So do the better examples pass the "ring test"?

Yes. They need only be clad in silver to ring properly. Especially if minted from bronze, which they are.

Here's some interesting photos of a counterfeiting ring that I posted under a separate thread. Quite fascinating.

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig ... ting-Ring/

[68Camaro]

Bronze would not ring properly compared to silver - it's not even close to the correct elastic modulus, not to mention damping. Ringing is all about the modes and harmonics and internal damping. Very difficult to replicate without changing something else that would be noticable.

[68Camaro]

I did NOT (yet) see a serious attempt at a silver Kennedy half of any year, whether 64 90% or 65-69 40%. Anyone see one I missed?

Ray's got one...
Subject: Fake 90% Silver
That coin could have ended up in anyone's stack. Counterfeit '64 Ken's will be popping up more and more when silver keeps going up. It does worry me. I love the '64 Ken. Nice, full-weight 90% silver.

I see that. So someone somewhere has done it (apparently). My question is if they are easily commercially available, as many of the other knock-offs seem to be?

[beauanderos]

I did NOT (yet) see a serious attempt at a silver Kennedy half of any year, whether 64 90% or 65-69 40%. Anyone see one I missed?

Ray's got one...
Subject: Fake 90% Silver
That coin could have ended up in anyone's stack. Counterfeit '64 Ken's will be popping up more and more when silver keeps going up. It does worry me. I love the '64 Ken. Nice, full-weight 90% silver.

I see that. So someone somewhere has done it (apparently). My question is if they are easily commercially available, as many of the other knock-offs seem to be?

It had to come from somewhere... too professionally produced. The only giveaway was it was a gram light with little to no wear on the coin. The thickness was also off (on the thin side) just a tad. And this coin survived an industrial coin comparitor without alerting the operator.

[neilgin1]

So do the better examples pass the "ring test"?

Yes. They need only be clad in silver to ring properly. Especially if minted from bronze, which they are.

Here's some interesting photos of a counterfeiting ring that I posted under a separate thread. Quite fascinating.

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig ... ting-Ring/

thank you for sharing this. my first gut instinct question would be, why hasnt , lets say the NCGS, the ANA, and other grading services grown a pair of stones, and gotten real muscular about going after this sort of.....i cant even think of the right word to describe whats going here.

i WAS going to spend the $99 for a subscription to the NCGS, just to explore the market, see where things trade at, populations, etc.....but after viewing THIS?...and hearing NOTHING coming from the PCGS..OR the ANA?....why would i even DREAM of paying $99 to a gaggle of ballless wonders?....when i see this?...truthfully?....i see those grey putty bars of ceefour, meaning i want to do bad and ugly things to both man and machine engaged in this foul enterprise, and regretfully i find myself thinking of the Chinese as just low life curs.....and thats NOT who i want to be, but if you fool with my hard earned savings slash stack?

this is just bad. i wouldnt touch a slabbed coin for ANYTHING, and the even though i glass EVERY SINGLE coin in a raw roll, upon receipt...yeh?....when i do another hard count inventory?...oh man, its going to be a very hard look. i'm 98% certain all my stuff is clean and the real deal...but as the Great Gipper said, "trust but verify", in fact i do believe i wanna call Doc Rodee now, and see if i can line up 2 RodeeRollo tubes for the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2013.

but i sure appreciate this look into this foul world of chinese counterfeiters, neil

[Treetop]

If fakes become a significant part of the silver market enough that anyone in th emarket is concerned should we expect this to increase the premiums on proven silver or dampen them since there might be more time or expense to verify the silver? I could see that going both ways.

[neilgin1]

If fakes become a significant part of the silver market enough that anyone in th emarket is concerned should we expect this to increase the premiums on proven silver or dampen them since there might be more time or expense to verify the silver? I could see that going both ways.

dampen....because anytime there is DOUBT in a market, that becomes an asset class that trades at a discount...that is what is F###ed about this whole thing. Now we have DOUBT in the market place, and our "policemen"?...the ANA, PCGS?

Barney Fifes the LOT of them, as far as i can tell, and IF we have to trade Ag in a post dollar enviroment?

this is the kind of thing, that could KILL the numi market.....for me?...right now?...i wouldnt GO NEAR slabbed ANYTHING....not that i have...i been buying raw rolls of 90's from a handful of dealers on Ebay, glassing every coin, so i'm knd of confident that my stack is cool.

maybe.....naw, i'm personally not freaked out, but if the "pond" is polluted, who wants to drink the water?

this whole thing doesnt smell right at all. they go after every white boy in the sticks with a wacky tabacky garden, but they let a bunch of chinese commies counterfeit valuable UNITED STATES silver coins, at the same time, THEY sit on the futures price?....that pass the smell test with you?

doesnt with me.

[SilverEye]

The grading companies better get their act together. Once confidence in their packaging is sufficiently shattered, a slabbed coin will be worth less than a loose coin. No way to scratch test it, can't weight it, the case will obscure edge faults.

Where are their official cases and hologram seals made?

[scyther]

The grading companies better get their act together. Once confidence in their packaging is sufficiently shattered, a slabbed coin will be worth less than a loose coin. No way to scratch test it, can't weight it, the case will obscure edge faults.

Where are their official cases and hologram seals made?

Not sure what they can do about it, people are going to fake these no matter what. I really hate it, though. It essentially means a coin needs to be re-authenticated every time it changes hands. And most coins aren't valuable enough for that to be even remotely worth it...

[neilgin1]

The grading companies better get their act together. Once confidence in their packaging is sufficiently shattered, a slabbed coin will be worth less than a loose coin. No way to scratch test it, can't weight it, the case will obscure edge faults.

Where are their official cases and hologram seals made?

Not sure what they can do about it, people are going to fake these no matter what. I really hate it, though. It essentially means a coin needs to be re-authenticated every time it changes hands. And most coins aren't valuable enough for that to be even remotely worth it...

thats why i want to reiterate the need for a well produced, maybe 4 by 8, 24-48 page booklet, with slick pages, to show up close and personal "side by side" pictures with the "tells" on AMERICAN 90's, 1878-1964, American 40's 1965-1974 (Ken's and brown/blue Ike's)and ASE's 1986-2013.....keep it simple, dont bite off more than one can chew, you offer it $20-$25, limited run of 500 to 1,000, and i bet given the "stacker" community, this first run would sell out within 6 months, if not less....AND done correctly, not only be the DEFINITIVE guide on "fugazi's", but also be an invaluable service as WELL, as making the copyright holder a tidy profit....ie, i could see something like this go into 2nd, thru 4th editions.

"why you do it?"....i dont have the skill, ie close in photography......i dont have the fugazi's! (thank God), and that is the whole thing....having the fugazi;s to do side by sides...so, i'm just saying, leaders come when leaders are called. we out.

[beauanderos]

There have been books published in the past regarding detection of counterfeit numismatic coins. With the proliferation of bullion counterfeiting now manifest, it's only a matter of time until some enterprising individual produces a manual of the nature Neil has described. I am confident many are now in the works, and if you review the links I pasted you can discover many in their genesis. It is merely a matter of time until one is published. Entrepreneurs respond to need, and surely there could be no better time than now to produce such a pamphlet/primer.

scyther... every DAY the problem of fake silver products becomes worse. The proportion of counterfeits to the existing pool (at least for 90%) is growing and, at some point in the future, it will prove harder to find authentic coins then to detect fake ones.

[JerrySpringer]

You guys want to go viral with alerting the public about fake silver? I suggest we all post to our local craiglists on the collectibles for-sale boards about how to spot fake ASE's. In other words, maybe post an inquiry about how to identify fake silver eagles. I am already on guard about silver fakes more than ever. Used to worry about fake Morgans. Now it is fake ASE's and fake 90% junk. This hobby is getting interesting more and more.

[Engineer]

Counterfeiting of any U.S. Treasury "product" is a serious crime that is aggressively pursued.

Do you have any data to back that up...because I haven't seen a single case of the government going after counterfeiters of 90%.

[beauanderos]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I've been buying 90% U.S. silver coins off and on for the past fifteen years. In that time I've heard a lot of people talk about fake 90% coins, but so far no one has been able to produce even one coin for my examination. I'm not saying fake coins don't exist, but when I press whoever is making the fake coin claim for evidence, they invariably say they heard it from so-and-so (a reliable source), or that they actually received the coin(s) but don't have them any more. To which I usually ask, "Did you sell the coins to someone else to get your money back, or did you just throw them away?" They usually say they lost them, threw them away, or gave them to a friend. Would you? If I had one, I keep the thing so I could show it to everyone!

In the last 15 years, I've bought several thousands of dollars of 90% U.S. silver coins; my dealer has probably bought and sold several times my several thousands of dollars of coins. Yet, neither of us has ever knowingly received or handled a single fake coin! Just lucky I guess.... I count every roll and examine every coin. Once in a while, a roll is short a coin; once in an even greater awhile, there's an extra coin. But never any fake coins (at least in my, and my dealer's, experience). If you're dealing with a reputable dealer (one who plans to stay in business over the long term with repeat customers), I would say the average person's chance of buying a fake coin is pretty close to zero. Not zero chance, but awfully close to zero -- say 0.0005% or less in real life experience.

So, let's talk about the mighty U.S. paper (fiat) dollar. On average in the past ten years the U.S. government and the Federal Reserve (which is neither federal or reserve), have inflated the currency (devalued the dollar) by 3.8 percent every year (on average). Which is the biggest risk for you? Holding paper dollars that are steadily losing value, or holding 90% silver coins that are steadily increasing in value?

Let's say you had $2,000 in January of 2003. You decided to hold $1,000 of it in cash, and you bought 90% silver coins with the other $1,000. In January of 2013 your $1,000 in cash would have been devalued by the Feral Reserve to $738 in actual purchasing power; your $1,000 in 90% silver would have gone from roughly 200 ounces at $5/oz in 2003, to 200 ounces at $30/oz in 2013. Now, assume that you were really unlucky and somehow half of the silver you bought was fake. With 20-20 hindsight, which deal would you take today? ($738 or $3,000?)

All investments have risks, and risk is the product of the probability that something will happen times the severity of the effects of that something if it does happen. None of us can predict the future with absolute accuracy; we can only estimate the probabilities of different things happening. What are the odds the politicians and Feral Reserve are going to continue devaluing the dollar? (100%?) What are the odds you're going to buy a bunch of fake coins if you invest in 90% silver? (0.0005% or less?) You decide....

Now, if someone who doesn't speak good English with a Chinese mailing address wants to sell you 1921 Morgan Silver Dollars at a really great price, don't be surprised if you get some fake coins and lose your shirt! On the other hand, if you buy 90% dimes, quarters, and halves from a reputable dealer you just might get the odd fake coin here and there, but you'll still have your shirt and most of your investment when you cash out later! Risk: Probability times severity.

Remember: If a deal sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is -- behind every successful scam is the victim's personal greed....

Finally, for all those worrywarts concerned about fake ASEs, keep shooting off your mouth about having one and you'll soon have a visit from an armed Treasury official wanting to know where and how you came into possession of it. Counterfeiting of any U.S. Treasury "product" is a serious crime that is aggressively pursued -- they might not get the guy doing the actual counterfeiting in China, but they will get the first person in the U.S. who takes possession of the counterfeit coins! They also confiscate every coin they find with no compensation paid to the holder thereof (assuming he/she escapes being charged with distribution of counterfeit coinage).

There are a lot of unnecessary scare tactics and rumor mongering going on in this thread. Ignore the alarmist postings -- the 90% silver and ASE markets are safe as long as you're dealing with reputable dealers. Avoid sellers with foreign addresses, crooks in dark alleys, open car trunks in parking lots, and individuals making offers too good to be true, and you'll be fine! Do your own research on the Internet -- Search for "real counterfeit U.S. coins found" and check out the links returned. Then ask yourself if there is a problem as some persist in claiming....

For those wishing to refute anything I've said in this post, kindly provide concrete evidence of every fake coin you claim to exist.

Wonderful first post! Please drop by the introductions thread and say hello. Welcome to RC

[natsb88]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I've been buying 90% U.S. silver coins off and on for the past fifteen years...

Welcome to Realcent. Great first post

In that time I've heard a lot of people talk about fake 90% coins, but so far no one has been able to produce even one coin for my examination.

Well, here it is again

There are a lot of unnecessary scare tactics and rumor mongering going on in this thread. Ignore the alarmist postings -- the 90% silver and ASE markets are safe as long as you're dealing with reputable dealers.

This isn't a "don't buy 90%" thread. It's a "be aware that there are fakes out there" thread. Since you have only been a member here for 12 hours you may not have seen it come up, but quite often the question is posed, "which is better, .999 or 90%?" Inevitably somebody will say that 90% is safer because "nobody bothers to make fakes," but that simply isn't the case. I don't know if the volume of fake 90% is greater or less than that of .999, or what the statistical risk of getting some mixed in a bag is. The slight risk of getting a few fake coins is, as you say, likely a much better play than leaving your money in inflation-prone FRNs. My point is simply that the blanket claim that "nobody bothers to make fake 90%" is untrue.

Just because counterfeit 90% has not been a problem during the previous 15 years, does not necessarily mean it won't be a problem in the next 15 years. Clearly fakes are being made, and they aren't just going to disappear. It's better to know a potential problem exists, and to educate oneself in how to combat it, than it is to brush it off with the line of thought that "all the silver I bought yesterday is fine, so all the silver I buy tomorrow will be too."

[No82s]

That being said I still think anybody can stamp a chunk of metal with ".999 fine silver 1 troy ounce", without any repercussions.