Nice Reversal

[Jonflyfish]

JFF, I am not making any personal attacks, I am not calling your motives into question, and I am not twisting your words. I am simply presenting my thoughts in a meaningful discussion. If you choose to reply directly to my post, I respectfully ask that you refrain from the tired "you're a physical dealer so everything you say is biased" mantra and instead focus on the actual issue of discussion. There is no need for this to devolve into a petty contest of who can get the last word in, it's a waste of everyone's time.

Um, I disagree. Your "Narrative" to MH was without any doubt obviously mimicking my comments with twisted untrue undertones and false suggestion of what I have actually stated. I am unbiased and do not have a conflict of interest. I don't need to pump a story or feed people's minds into buying (or selling). Supposition and speculative story telling does not make anything come true either.
Truth in price.
Cheers!

Obviously my original post was mocking. The post immediately proceeding this one was not. But you chose to completely ignore the issue at hand and redirect attention to a personal level instead. Cheers!

No, I didn't. I simply didn't type fast enough then re-read everything that's been posted after you self admittedly were mocking me or whatever you say. Let's keep in mind that I did not reach out to attack anyone, but there are plenty who have jumped in and made my posts personal. I never called you out before you took the liberty to begin reacting to my posts with your narratives of twisting my comments or simply omitting subtle yet critical details.

I'll stop here because this is beyond time or interest of myself and disrespectful to others here.

Cheers!

[mflugher]

Seems a futures floor which traded $1k bags of ASE and 90% would even out the playing field between "physical" and "paper". Contracts in the $10-30K range would be well within the affordability range of most coin dealers...

[scyther]

JFF, I have to say that whatever I thought of your predictions (or whatever you want to call them), you always seemed calm and collected in the past. What happened? Now you're just being an immature troll. Get over it.

You already spoke about what you thought about the prior market musing with enthusiastic negativity. Yes I am calm. However, I'll tell you what's changed- it isn't your ever present trolling and badgering, however. That is growing quite old and tired. What has changed is that the market has sold of precipitously and some (READ: S-O-M-E) uncouth dealers have gouged people who trusted them and their lies about why the price gouging premiums were to be taken as honest and fair prices when in fact there were other dealers who chose not to legally and unethically steal from customers. I posted about such unscrupulous activity when it was happening. There are many reasons why one would be sneaky and knowingly convince someone else to pay for what should have been their losses.
Some folks who have a conflict of interest here decided to take it at bat. That tells me that perhaps there are predator thieves in lambs clothing here. They have tried to twist and contort my words and message in an ill intended attempt to cover their tracks by trying to discredit and disparage the truth. They have lied. I won't mention names. Their posts are on the forum.

I'm sure some dealers here did not gouge anyone while others were, because they couldn't stoop to such levels in the gutter of morals and ethics of the unscrupulous predators. To those I applaud ( yet again) They prove through actions, not words, who can be trusted.

As for your empty rhetoric and substance-less comments...

Perhaps you could offer something of value originating from your own thoughts instead of lurking and leaching others. Mature your efforts and learn to speak for yourself and not disparagingly and begrudgingly about others. Let your own efforts speaking about the market do the talking instead of your cheap shots directed towards others.

Cheers!

I'm the troll? That's pretty laughable coming from someone who recently made a troll thread informing everyone that he was right to suggest hedging and starting up an old argument that had ended. And then you had to do it again in this thread. I repeat- get over it. Sellers raised premiums. You aren't able to convince us that it's extortion. Accept that and find something else to do with your time besides repeating the same tired arguments that you've already made time and time again. In short, stop trolling.

You won't mention names? I know natsb88 is one. Plenty of others disagree with you, although I don't know which ones have a "conflict of interest". I don't think they would care much if you did mention names, since no one believes your lies about "predator thieves" "extorting" people by not selling at the prices you want.

As for my "empty rhetoric and substance-less comments"... here is the substance of my comment: stop starting the same argument in every thread. No one likes a troll.

What should I contribute? My thoughts on where the silver price is headed? I think it will go down again in the next month or so, but I really have no idea. People don't look to me for advice, and I don't offer it, because I don't know. My thoughts on premiums? You already know that.

If I've spoken disparagingly of you, it's because you've done so of others. And what have I said that could be interpreted as "begrudging"? Is your conceit so great that you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is jealous of you? Well, actually, I think we already know the answer to that question...

[Rodebaugh]

Hey Doc, while I agree that we could see 18 again, what are your reasons for naming this price as a low?

I'll get it typed up in a day or so.

[beauanderos]

Hey Doc, while I agree that we could see 18 again, what are your reasons for naming this price as a low?

I'll get it typed up in a day or so.

Doc is using reverse pump and dump psychology. If he can convince you the market is going to tank, he can buy all your silver as you despair and capitulate. I pray that this doesn't mean his next pour will be Doc's Dump, showing an image of a dentist producing silver, with the caption "100% Silver in the Crapper"

[Engineer]

Today's dip and reversal is a great example of the hypocrisy of the paper traders who complain about premiums.

Someone on the exchanges put out lowball offers, and someone was desperate enough to sell at those prices. Were the buyers thieves? If not, why would someone be a thief for doing the same outside of an exchange?

Someone here would be screaming bloody murder if he saw that happen on Main Street...

[Rodebaugh]

I dont want it to go down. I make more loot when trending bull. But it doesn't matter what I want..... Its going lower.

[scyther]

I dont want it to go down. I make more loot when trending bull. But it doesn't matter what I want..... Its going lower.

What a dark and ominous claim. I do look forward to your in depth analysis.

[beauanderos]

I dont want it to go down. I make more loot when trending bull. But it doesn't matter what I want..... Its going lower.

What a dark and ominous claim. I do look forward to your in depth analysis.

Yeah, Doc... hurry up and tell us the results of your coin toss

[scyther]

I dont want it to go down. I make more loot when trending bull. But it doesn't matter what I want..... Its going lower.

What a dark and ominous claim. I do look forward to your in depth analysis.

Yeah, Doc... hurry up and tell us the results of your coin toss

Oh come now, I think he at least would have had to use a die...

[blackrabbit]

Heading Docs way on the overnight. Down 49 cents now.

[Market Harmony]

Agreed, but the volatility is telling us something else too. The market is conflicted. The more volatile it gets the more easily it will break to new highs. If it breaks to new lows the physical inventory will get that much tighter anyway. With the HKMEx being shutdown completely yesterday and the CME halting trading 4 times also yesterday it is apparent that the electronic markets have their hands full and I would bet they are experiencing major delivery issues at $20 silver. The HKMEx had to cash out all its customers, no delivery. Essentially they pulled an MF Global, but it's not hitting the wire as that big of a deal since there wasn't any (known) scandal involved.

My (limited) understanding of the volatility is that it is representative of a product trading in too small of a market. A trade of tons of silver theoretically should be absorbed by an open bid/ask system with little change of price. But, what we are seeing is that a large block of trades (buys or sells) can move the PM markets with relative ease. That, to me, is an indication that there is too little open interest, and therefore leads to opportunistic exploitation of a paper market where bids/asks at price points is open for attack. This works in bull markets and bear markets... just as long as there is a way to offload the trade, whether directly or indirectly. A speculator has incentive to seek a trade that will profit from a larger trade that quickly eats away at the open bids or asks.

With the leverage of 15:1, the extra availability of COMEX paper is supposed to help to alleviate the wide swings in price by bringing more participants to the market. If there was a 1:1 (zero leverage) market, then any large trade would not be absorbed quickly enough, and volatility would swing wildly in one direction or the other. The open bid/ask system would have to fill those orders at the limit up or down price of the entity making the trade until that block of contracts is moved. The addition of leverage should increase the number or scope of market participants; the bid/ask system will grow in size; The larger market should then greatly influence price stability because it would take larger and larger trade sizes to wipe out a bid/ask book and create the wild price swing.

But this stability is not what we see, so that makes me think that the volatility simply represents too small of a market. If the market was full of eager participants with access to highly leverage product, then I suspect that a trade of tons of silver wouldn't even show up on a chart.

HKMEx closed because it was unprofitable because there were too few trades

[Jonflyfish]

Agreed, but the volatility is telling us something else too. The market is conflicted. The more volatile it gets the more easily it will break to new highs. If it breaks to new lows the physical inventory will get that much tighter anyway. With the HKMEx being shutdown completely yesterday and the CME halting trading 4 times also yesterday it is apparent that the electronic markets have their hands full and I would bet they are experiencing major delivery issues at $20 silver. The HKMEx had to cash out all its customers, no delivery. Essentially they pulled an MF Global, but it's not hitting the wire as that big of a deal since there wasn't any (known) scandal involved.

My (limited) understanding of the volatility is that it is representative of a product trading in too small of a market. A trade of tons of silver theoretically should be absorbed by an open bid/ask system with little change of price. But, what we are seeing is that a large block of trades (buys or sells) can move the PM markets with relative ease. That, to me, is an indication that there is too little open interest, and therefore leads to opportunistic exploitation of a paper market where bids/asks at price points is open for attack. This works in bull markets and bear markets... just as long as there is a way to offload the trade, whether directly or indirectly. A speculator has incentive to seek a trade that will profit from a larger trade that quickly eats away at the open bids or asks.

With the leverage of 15:1, the extra availability of COMEX paper is supposed to help to alleviate the wide swings in price by bringing more participants to the market. If there was a 1:1 (zero leverage) market, then any large trade would not be absorbed quickly enough, and volatility would swing wildly in one direction or the other. The open bid/ask system would have to fill those orders at the limit up or down price of the entity making the trade until that block of contracts is moved. The addition of leverage should increase the number or scope of market participants; the bid/ask system will grow in size; The larger market should then greatly influence price stability because it would take larger and larger trade sizes to wipe out a bid/ask book and create the wild price swing.

But this stability is not what we see, so that makes me think that the volatility simply represents too small of a market. If the market was full of eager participants with access to highly leverage product, then I suspect that a trade of tons of silver wouldn't even show up on a chart.

HKMEx closed because it was unprofitable because there were too few trades

Too many suppositions and incorrect assertions here. This isn't personal but you speak as if your assertions are facts and many are categorically false. For one, CME Group's (COMEX) silver open interest as of Fridays settlement was about 147,000 contracts. that is a very healthy level compared to the past averages- see http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/metals/ ... ptions.pdf
HKMEx has nothing to do with it (nor MF Global, nor silver plated clads, nor tungsten filled bars) so let's not mix the closing of one exchange to be anecdotal evidence for another. It's not even close to apples and oranges with that parallel. Some small time coin shop can close because of lack of revenue and that doesn't mean APMEX and Tulving are somehow in the same circumstance.
You bet delivery issues. I bet not...not at these liquidation levels where supply is flooding in.
New lows doesn't mean tighter supply. That's just pure speculation.
" A speculator has incentive to seek a trade that will profit from a larger trade that quickly eats away at the open bids or asks."- Where did you hear that random BS?

"With the leverage of 15:1, the extra availability of COMEX paper is supposed to help to alleviate the wide swings in price by bringing more participants to the market. If there was a 1:1 (zero leverage) market, then any large trade would not be absorbed quickly enough, and volatility would swing wildly in one direction or the other. "- this is rubbish and pure opinion. For one, margin requirements do not mean portfolios are leveraged 15:1. In fact many are less than 1:1 for conservative profiles or hedge books. "extra availability"? Huh, Availability only comes when participants enter the market. Unlike equities, there are no market makers in CME silver futures. Liquidity is from market participants. Market participants trade for a whole host of reasons. The open bid/ask system that you speak of, what is that? You said it has to fill orders a certain way. No idea what that is. Bids and offers (ask) are from voluntary buyers and sellers who come and go as they chose. It is an auction. At times when a majority trade the same way there is an imbalance and swift price movements i.e. when few if any want to buy because they think the price will decline they don't bid until the price is where they prefer to buy. Just like folks here who may not buy because they think they might get a better chance to step in and buy. They (any market participants) can be wrong too and miss out on what they were looking for..

"But this stability is not what we see, so that makes me think that the volatility simply represents too small of a market. " It is no secret that when you compare silver to gold or crude oil etc, it is small and has always been relatively more volatile than most. It's the nature of the commodity.

" I suspect that a trade of tons of silver wouldn't even show up on a chart." I'm surprised to hear that from a dealer. Primary dealers on the LBME trade in lots of $100 million minimum and deal in tons. The price shows up every day in the fix. The large deals, not the small trades, set the WAP.
It's apparent that your efforts as a physical dealer is to attack the financial markets with loose anecdotal assertions and some completely and fully incorrect summary statements.
When you see bid ask spreads for silver financial products at 1 penny per ounce or less without disparity in a central pool of liquidity and compare that to a dealer who offers an ASE at spot + $3 and another simultaneously sells the same fungible ASE at spot +$8 along with a story about global silver supply shortages only to resupply a few weeks later at a much lower price with much lower premiums, one can conclude what they want about price fragmentation, liquidity and price transparency.
For me I don't see physical as better or worse than financial or vice versa. Neither is inherently "good" or "bad". They each have their advantages and disadvantages. They both offer opportunities to buy or sell profitably. It does bother me however to see people pump and push raw utter nonsense to support one and discredit the other when they have an inherent conflict of interest to do so.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

Unlike equities, there are no market makers in CME silver futures.

I smell BS.

...and I'm wondering if he's paid by the word or the post.

[Rosco]

Oh I think I hear a bunch of BS from One poster

[Jonflyfish]

Unlike equities, there are no market makers in CME silver futures.

I smell BS.

...and I'm wondering if he's paid by the word or the post.

Seriously? Please don't say that your bias makes you so ignorant that you think there are market makers for CME silver contracts. There is no exchange intermediary between buyers and sellers my friend. Please provide proof of having the same functionality as a specialist on the NYSE for CME silver contracts.
This I can't wait to hear back about.
...and I'm wondering if you are paid by the joust, or blatant lie, by some unscrupulous dealer here.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

Seriously? Please don't say that your bias makes you so ignorant that you think there are market makers for CME silver contracts. There is no exchange intermediary between buyers and sellers my friend. Please provide proof of having the same functionality as a specialist on the NYSE for CME silver contracts.
This I can't wait to hear back about.
...and I'm wondering if you are paid by the joust, or blatant lie, by some unscrupulous dealer here.

Cheers!

I'm completely unbiased. I've never been a dealer or been paid by a dealer, and I've never been paid to trade paper. I simply collect coins and abhor the constant volatility in the physical coin market caused by stupid stuff like margin hikes on Japanese bonds.

Your claimed livelihood is dependent on the continued existence of the paper markets, and physical trade is detrimental to your income. It's natural for someone in your position to strike out against that threat. It's also natural for coin collectors to abhor the parasites who feed off our hobby...especially when they come here with no apparent purpose other than to berate.

You never did answer my inquiry as to why a 15% margin is unfair for a small local shop selling an eagle at a time. Neither did you address why it is acceptable for paper traders to place lowball buy orders on the exchanges, but unfair for individuals to do the same outside of the exchanges.

[Jonflyfish]

Seriously? Please don't say that your bias makes you so ignorant that you think there are market makers for CME silver contracts. There is no exchange intermediary between buyers and sellers my friend. Please provide proof of having the same functionality as a specialist on the NYSE for CME silver contracts.
This I can't wait to hear back about.
...and I'm wondering if you are paid by the joust, or blatant lie, by some unscrupulous dealer here.

Cheers!

I'm completely unbiased. I've never been a dealer or been paid by a dealer, and I've never been paid to trade paper. I simply collect coins and abhor the constant volatility in the physical coin market caused by stupid stuff like margin hikes on Japanese bonds.

Your claimed livelihood is dependent on the continued existence of the paper markets, and physical trade is detrimental to your income. It's natural for someone in your position to strike out against that threat. It's also natural for coin collectors to abhor the parasites who feed off our hobby...especially when they come here with no apparent purpose other than to berate.

You never did answer my inquiry as to why a 15% margin is unfair for a small local shop selling an eagle at a time. Neither did you address why it is acceptable for paper traders to place lowball buy orders on the exchanges, but unfair for individuals to do the same outside of the exchanges.

I didn't answer them earlier because I thought you gave a second's thought about what you said and realized how pathetic your comments were. I guess I was wrong about that. So now, you revert to asking this old garbage after not backing up your assertions about BS?

However, I'll answer your old questions if you'll back up your claims with facts.

So here goes- Why do you lie? I NEVER claimed " livelihood is dependent on the continued existence of the paper markets, and physical trade is detrimental to your income." so your utter lies and disparaging remarks that followed about my position, striking out simply reveal your character here.
I never said 15% is unfair for selling an eagle at a time. You made up those numbers. Again, I never referenced 15%. Traders can place "lowball buy orders on the exchanges". You can place an order to buy silver at $0 on the exchange. Placing an order away from the market doesn't mean you will get filled. I don't get the point. That's basic order entry knowledge. I have no idea what you mean by "outside the exchange".

Now, your turn. You touted BS and took specific aim at my comment regarding the CME silver market not having a specialist system like equities on the NYSE. You took the time to single this out and spout about it, now back up your claim.
If you don't prove me wrong about that point then you will not only have been proven (yet again) to be ignorant, but uncouth and shown to be one who takes aim at others with foolish drivel and with such ignorance that you can't support your frivolous attacks. So, let's see you engineer a response to prove me wrong. Otherwise, your ill intended trolling will go unanswered.

Cheers!

[scyther]

So, let's see you engineer a response to prove me wrong. Otherwise, your ill intended trolling will go unanswered.

Cheers!

I love it!

By the way, isn't weird how everyone who disagrees with you happens to be a troll?

[Jonflyfish]

So, let's see you engineer a response to prove me wrong. Otherwise, your ill intended trolling will go unanswered.

Cheers!

I love it!

By the way, isn't weird how everyone who disagrees with you happens to be a troll?

Nope, only lurking bunch that seek opportunity to lance out and besmirch my comments by twisting my words, omitting pertinent details in their ill intended assault, or simply lie about what I said (or didn't say.)
Such is the activity of a troll, not unlike yourself.

Cheers!

[Engineer]

Why do you lie? I NEVER claimed " livelihood is dependent on the continued existence of the paper markets, and physical trade is detrimental to your income." so your utter ignorant comments about striking out are frivolous and foolish. I never said 15% is unfair for selling an eagle at a time. You made up those numbers. Again, I never referenced 15%. Traders can place "lowball buy orders on the exchanges". You can place an order to buy silver at $0 on the exchange. Placing an order away from the market doesn't mean you will get filled. I don't get the point. That's basic order entry knowledge. I have no idea what you mean by "outside the exchange".

I don't lie. I simply converted your claim of an unfair $8 sell premium with a $3 buy premium into a percentage. It's simple math that adds up to a 15% markup, and you seemed to feel that it was taking advantage of people. What's so unfair about a small local shop needing twice the spread as the big internet firms?

You still haven't addressed the second point. Main street dealers can put out any ask price they like, and it doesn't mean people will sell to them...unless they're desperate enough to sell. Why is that fair for exchange traders but not for merchants?

Now, your turn. You touted BS and took specific claim to the CME silver market not having a specialist system like equities. You took effort to spout about it now back up your claim.
If you don't prove me wrong about that point then you will not only have been proven (yet again) to be ignorant, but uncouth and shown to be one who takes aim at others with foolish drivel and with such ignorance that you can't support your frivolous attacks. So, let's see you engineer a response to prove me wrong. Otherwise, your ill intended trolling will go unanswered.

I'll try to speak in your language so you don't get confused:

Why do you lie? I NEVER took specific claim to the CME silver market not having a specialist system like equities.

[Jonflyfish]

Why do you lie? I NEVER claimed " livelihood is dependent on the continued existence of the paper markets, and physical trade is detrimental to your income." so your utter ignorant comments about striking out are frivolous and foolish. I never said 15% is unfair for selling an eagle at a time. You made up those numbers. Again, I never referenced 15%. Traders can place "lowball buy orders on the exchanges". You can place an order to buy silver at $0 on the exchange. Placing an order away from the market doesn't mean you will get filled. I don't get the point. That's basic order entry knowledge. I have no idea what you mean by "outside the exchange".

I don't lie. I simply converted your claim of an unfair $8 sell premium with a $3 buy premium into a percentage. It's simple math that adds up to a 15% markup, and you seemed to feel that it was taking advantage of people. What's so unfair about a small local shop needing twice the spread as the big internet firms?

You still haven't addressed the second point. Main street dealers can put out any ask price they like, and it doesn't mean people will sell to them...unless they're desperate enough to sell. Why is that fair for exchange traders but not for merchants?

Now, your turn. You touted BS and took specific claim to the CME silver market not having a specialist system like equities. You took effort to spout about it now back up your claim.
If you don't prove me wrong about that point then you will not only have been proven (yet again) to be ignorant, but uncouth and shown to be one who takes aim at others with foolish drivel and with such ignorance that you can't support your frivolous attacks. So, let's see you engineer a response to prove me wrong. Otherwise, your ill intended trolling will go unanswered.

I'll try to speak in your language so you don't get confused:

Why do you lie? I NEVER took specific claim to the CME silver market not having a specialist system like equities.

I'm not confused. But you either are or you simply have no moral character.
You said "I don't lie." This is a lie
You said " livelihood is dependent on the continued existence of the paper markets, and physical trade is detrimental to your income." This is a lie. I never said this. Such desperate, pathetic, troll drivel. You are attempting to besmirch me and deceive others with a blatant lie.

Also- "I simply converted your claim of an unfair $8 sell premium with a $3 buy premium into a percentage." is your scenario. It doesn't reflect the point I made at all and infers that I said something that I didn't. What I said was that you could buy at $3 over spot from honorable dealers and at the same time $8-11+ from other unscrupulous dealers. I've been clear about this point and have repeated it numerous times so please don't twist it into something else that I didn't say. Scenario play with 15% i.e. "If a dealer bought an ASE at $3 over spot and sold at $8 over, would that be unscrupulous?" isn't relevant here. I'm not saying that didn't happen somewhere and it's not my point. It doesn't speak to what I said. You should stop beguiling people by twisting things into something else.

In addition, the equities market has market makers (specialists are synonymous). In the CME silver futures market there are not. That is what I said. You DID attack and dispute that point.
Your nefarious efforts are a disgrace.

[Engineer]

What I said was that you could buy at $3 over spot from honorable dealers and at the same time $8-11+ from other dealers was unscrupulous.

At the time you made that claim, reputable dealers were PAYING spot plus 3, which puts your claims in doubt. Rather than verbally sparring over minutiae, why not just put it in an acceptable percentage. Spot and premiums change constantly, which makes $8-11 over an illogical way to view the fairness of a deal.

Using a single silver eagle as an example, what percentage of markup would you consider unscrupulous? That's what many people here can afford at one time, so it's relevant to the users of this forum, whereas your 1000oz bars mean nothing to most of the people here.

If you want to talk premiums on monster boxes or industrial bars, a place like Kitco might be a better choice of venue.

Regarding the existence of market makers on the commodities exchanges, I said I smelled BS for one simple reason:
Some group of people has been acting as a market maker by buying/dumping huge amounts of metals in small amounts of time. Whether they're officially designated as such is irrelevant to their existence.

[neilgin1]

Jony FlyFish,

why don't you just leave? You make things/discussions around here just nasty. You contribute nothing but PURE FOUL ILL-WILL. You whine and caterwaul like a lil girl, how zeroed in you are, by those "with agenda"...and OH!...how they troll you, but its YOU who do the trolling. The poster, "InfleXion", has a fine mind, he's thoughtful, careful of word, I can tell that he has been around the speculative arena, and your response to him was the DEPTH of disrespect. This is a good man, and you just took the bandwidth to excoriate him.

Shame on you, have you have no honor? I've checked on you, you do operate within the upper spectrum of the speculative world. My question is, why do you feel the NEED to come on, to a very simple humble forum, that's dedicated to discussion of the physical accumulation of both precious and base metals, and then "word strafe" the very people who "live here"?

why?...does that make you feel better about yourself? The act of putting others down, in that oily smarmy way, that is emblematic of your postings? Do you enjoy this? If you do, and its APPARENT YOU DO, then you are indeed a dark hearted, dishonorable man, and I think you should leave. I, for one, do not like you at all, because you are a bully, but the worst kind of bully....a coward bully, because there are miles of fiber optic cable separating all of us, which enables you to scribe your foul output and spew. I could guarantee, in a room, face to face, all us guys, you WOULD NOT be talking like that....and you know that to be true......and THAT is my definition of a COWARD. Nothing worse, than a man who is a dishonorable coward, which you are.

Nate, and the Copper Cave, a stand up guy, I trust, Scyther, Engineer, both good men, I have nice dialogue with and respect. InfeXion, has a fine mind and a good read of the market, and you even trolled him,using the most insulting of verbiage. Shameful, and when called on this type of posting, contrition?....no. you just double down and get uglier.

Why don't you just leave?....now I KNOW, how you're going to come at me, and I know how I reacted to when I was called on poor posting practices, much different than you would, that's for sure. But you will not wreck this forum, try as you might. So spare the cyber blood NOW, and LEAVE.

[scyther]

I think JFF is really angry now, he didn't even say Cheers! in the last post...