Recyclers try to defraud US Mint with counterfeit coins

[natsb88]

I just picked up on this story from back in the spring. Several scrap metal companies are charged with importing counterfeit dimes, quarters, and half dollars and sending them to the US Mint mutilated coin program to redeem them for cash. To the tune of over $5 million

"Interestingly, United States Mint personnel also believe that more half dollars have been redeemed by China-sourced vendors in the last 10 years than the United States Mint has ever manufactured in its history."

https://fakebullion.com/index.php/news- ... ud-us-mint

[Doctor Steuss]

"Interestingly, United States Mint personnel also believe that more half dollars have been redeemed by China-sourced vendors in the last 10 years than the United States Mint has ever manufactured in its history."

Out of curiosity, I added up the mintage figures for non-silver/non-proof Kennedy halves for 1971-2001.

I didn’t double-check my number, but I’m usually pretty accurate with the 10-key. I came up with 2,774,819,929 Half Dollars minted.

That’s over 1.3 Billion dollars. And that's only circulation Kennedy halves for those limited years.

[natsb88]

"Interestingly, United States Mint personnel also believe that more half dollars have been redeemed by China-sourced vendors in the last 10 years than the United States Mint has ever manufactured in its history."

Out of curiosity, I added up the mintage figures for non-silver/non-proof Kennedy halves for 1971-2001.

I didn’t double-check my number, but I’m usually pretty accurate with the 10-key. I came up with 2,774,819,929 Half Dollars minted.

That’s over 1.3 Billion dollars. And that's only circulation Kennedy halves for those limited years.

I thought that statement sounded a little fishy. But... This $5.4 million case is just one group who got caught, and perhaps only the coins for which the mint has assay evidence were fake. They said just one of the companies alone named in the case cashed in $6.4 million in 2012-2014. The investigation goes back to 2009 and the case covers several other companies. Who knows how many others are doing it and how much happened before the mint caught on...

[highroller4321]

"Interestingly, United States Mint personnel also believe that more half dollars have been redeemed by China-sourced vendors in the last 10 years than the United States Mint has ever manufactured in its history."

Out of curiosity, I added up the mintage figures for non-silver/non-proof Kennedy halves for 1971-2001.

I didn’t double-check my number, but I’m usually pretty accurate with the 10-key. I came up with 2,774,819,929 Half Dollars minted.

That’s over 1.3 Billion dollars. And that's only circulation Kennedy halves for those limited years.

I thought that statement sounded a little fishy. But... This $5.4 million case is just one group who got caught, and perhaps only the coins for which the mint has assay evidence were fake. They said just one of the companies alone named in the case cashed in $6.4 million in 2012-2014. The investigation goes back to 2009 and the case covers several other companies. Who knows how many others are doing it and how much happened before the mint caught on...

FYI this entire story is all phony...... The court case is real but the actions and reasons behind this case are false!!

They tried this before in 2009 at the port of Long Beach and failed. The government lost this case....


This current case has hopefully its final trial here in 7 days. The "evidence" they are claiming is all hear say and they don't have the facts or evidence to prove anything.


Also the statement about the half dollars doesn't hold up either. Quarters, dimes, halves, and Ikes are all melted together, as they are the same alloy, so how could one be able to count the halves that are melted?

[beauanderos]

they don't have some way of testing them when received from the guys who are sending them? High dollar comparitors?

[knibloe]

they don't have some way of testing them when received from the guys who are sending them? High dollar comparitors?

It wouldn't matter. Lets say I make a "dime" that has the exact same composition. Then I mutilate it beyond good recognition. I could make 88% profit margin because it only costs $.012 to make a "dime".

[natsb88]

FYI this entire story is all phony...... The court case is real but the actions and reasons behind this case are false!!

They tried this before in 2009 at the port of Long Beach and failed. The government lost this case....


This current case has hopefully its final trial here in 7 days. The "evidence" they are claiming is all hear say and they don't have the facts or evidence to prove anything.


Also the statement about the half dollars doesn't hold up either. Quarters, dimes, halves, and Ikes are all melted together, as they are the same alloy, so how could one be able to count the halves that are melted?

That part is easy. Count small samples of each batch before melting, extrapolate rough numbers of each coin based on the sample count and total weight.

I don't know about the rest of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the government is making a case where there isn't one, but I'm curious as to the motive.

[knibloe]

Didn't we have a thread about sending coin to the mint? I thought that they had to be sorted by denomination?

[highroller4321]

FYI this entire story is all phony...... The court case is real but the actions and reasons behind this case are false!!

They tried this before in 2009 at the port of Long Beach and failed. The government lost this case....


This current case has hopefully its final trial here in 7 days. The "evidence" they are claiming is all hear say and they don't have the facts or evidence to prove anything.


Also the statement about the half dollars doesn't hold up either. Quarters, dimes, halves, and Ikes are all melted together, as they are the same alloy, so how could one be able to count the halves that are melted?

That part is easy. Count small samples of each batch before melting, extrapolate rough numbers of each coin based on the sample count and total weight.

I don't know about the rest of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the government is making a case where there isn't one, but I'm curious as to the motive.

Look up the 2009 case and you will see they tested over 50 shipments and didn't find any counterfeit coins. They are going off an "anonymous" tip....needless to say that person doesn't exist.


Generally shipments are sent in 2000-2500lb bags at a time. I don't think taking a few handfuls and estimating is a very accurate way of doing it.

[highroller4321]

Didn't we have a thread about sending coin to the mint? I thought that they had to be sorted by denomination?

It only has to be sorted by alloy. Q,D,H, and Ikes can all be sent in together. Dollars, nickels, and pennies all have to be separated.

[blackrabbit]

So Mr. Highroller. Just exactly how much damaged coin have you sent to the mint?

[natsb88]

Generally shipments are sent in 2000-2500lb bags at a time. I don't think taking a few handfuls and estimating is a very accurate way of doing it.

The idiom "good enough for government work" had to come from somewhere

[Doctor Steuss]

The idiom "good enough for government work" had to come from somewhere

I just let out the loudest chortle, I had to make sure no one was around giving me funky looks.

[natsb88]

NEWARK, N.J., Oct. 20, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- The Wealthy Max Limited legal defense team filed a motion to dismiss the civil forfeiture case brought by the US Attorney for the District of New Jersey. The motion is filed with the US District Court in New Jersey and seeks the immediate release of $2,388,091.18 that the company is owed by the US Treasury for coins submitted to the US Mint's Mutilated Coin Redemption Program. The original complaint was filed in March 2015 and claimed that Wealthy Max and its Foshan, China based affiliate that administers its quality assurance program, ( hereinafter "Wealthy Max"), and several other recycling companies, had attempted to pass counterfeit US coins through the US Mint's program.

The motion to dismiss cites multiple inconsistencies in the original complaint and the fact that there has been no direct proof of counterfeiting, or of a conscious attempt to cheat the US government. The original complaint expressed doubts that Wealthy Max and other recycling companies with links to China could source the number of coins claimed through scrap metal exported from the US to China. This demonstrates a lack of understanding of the scale and organization of the Chinese metal recycling industry.

Much more here:

https://fakebullion.com/index.php/news- ... iture-case

[68Camaro]

There may be something to the counterclaim. There was an article a couple of years ago? about some Chinese folks doing the touristy thing in Europe, and they were initially arrested and detained in France (?I think) because they were paying for so many things with small coin, for supposedly passing counterfeit Euros, but it turned out they were legit. When the Chinese buy ship loads of scrap cars from all over the world they strip/shred them and recover millions in loose change left in the cars, which are then sold at a discount. Chinese traveling overseas buy them to carry with them for spending money. (Or so I recall, someone might want to check Snopes for me on this. )

[highroller4321]

The judge in NJ threw the case out yesterday....only for a new case be opened up in Philadelphia today. I am not sure exactly how all the legalities work, but if this isn't a sign that this is all a bunch of crap I don't know what is.

The papers are even starting to catch on about this BS.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/2 ... coins.html

[AGgressive Metal]

Its one thing to make a fake US Quarter, its a whole different ball-game to make 50 different state quarters plus @40 dates of Washington quarters, in secret, then mutilate them all, then ship them across the world, then truck then from port to the mint facility. If you had that capability there would be no point to mutilate them because then you could spend them anonymously instead of sending them to the Mint with your name on them! That's one key indicator of how the government is full of beans on this. They are mad that they have to pay for their own money back. The "anonymous tip" either doesn't exist or its some random dock worker or truck driver with a big imagination and no real knowledge of coins.

[AGgressive Metal]

That’s over 1.3 Billion dollars. And that's only circulation Kennedy halves for those limited years.

That would be about 65 million pounds of coin (@$20 per lb) or 32,500 tons. Whoever thought they sent in "more halves than the government ever made" was probably just some low level worker who had no concept of how much circulation coin exists.

Let me take a guess at correcting the article:
"United States Mint personnel some forklift drivers we found at the mint warehouse also believe that more half dollars have been redeemed by China-sourced vendors in the last 10 years than the United States Mint has ever manufactured in its history"

[natsb88]

US Mint Suspends Exchange Program for Bent and Partial Coins

PHILADELPHIA - A US Mint program allowing the public to be reimbursed for bent or partial coins will be suspended for six months beginning November 2. The Mint will use the time to assess the potential for fraud in the program, while developing new security measures.

More here.

[natsb88]

GeyerGorey LLP, counsel for Wealthy Max Limited (Wealthy Max), which is a claimant in a federal civil forfeiture case involving supposedly counterfeit coins today reported that the government's official laboratory report on the coins tested fails to identify Wealthy Max as the source of any of them.

The two-page report details the number and denominations of the coins tested and the metals found on the surface of the coins. It does not describe the method of testing, the process by which the coins were selected (other than "random") or the relative size of the sample.

More here.

[natsb88]

Wealthy Max publicly unseals 13 metric tons of mutilated coins

FOSHAN, CHINA - A Chinese firm has begun a media campaign aimed to clear its name in a dispute involving the U.S. Mint and recycled U.S. coins.

The firm also aims to obtain release of millions of dollars in compensation from recycled U.S. coins under the U.S. Mint’s currently suspended Mutilated Coin Redemption Program. To that end, China-based Wealth Max Ltd. conducted what company officials said was an open inspection Feb. 23, in front of television cameras, of crates containing 13 metric tons of coins.

More here.

[TwoAndAHalfCents]

This has been an interesting story to follow. I have often wondered how this company has come up with so many U.S. coins. The companies scrapping cars in China presumably bring in cars from around the world. The loose coins from all of those cars would be from so many different countries. Is the recycling process so highly refined that coins can be efficiently separated from the various other small metallic objects that turn up? Is the labor so cheap that all the coins can be picked out by hand and then further sorted to get just the U.S. coins out of the mix? The video referenced in the article says only dimes and quarters are in the crates. What about all the pennies and nickels? From my own personal experience finding coins while cleaning my car, the coins are more likely to be pennies than anything else. These guys have 13 metric tons of dimes and quarters from scrapped cars. Their haul of pennies should weigh even more than that. Then there are all those nickels too. We all know it's illegal to melt the pennies and nickels so where did they all go? It all makes my think this company has been manufacturing mutilated coins just to take advantage of the program at the U.S. Mint.

[knibloe]

loose coins from all of those cars would be from so many different countries. Is the recycling process so highly refined that coins can be efficiently separated from the various other small metallic objects that turn up? Is the labor so cheap that all the coins can be picked out by hand and then further sorted to get just the U.S. coins out of the mix? The video referenced in the article says only dimes and quarters are in the crates. What about all the pennies and nickels? From my own personal experience finding coins while cleaning my car, the coins are more likely to be pennies than anything else. These guys have 13 metric tons of dimes and quarters from scrapped cars. Their haul of pennies should weigh even more than that. Then there are all those nickels too. We all know it's illegal to melt the pennies and nickels so where did they all go? It all makes my think this company has been manufacturing mutilated coins just to take advantage of the program at the U.S. Mint.

1. Labor is probably cheap enough to have them hand sorted.
2. Pennies and nickels are worth more as scrap than they are as coins, so I presume that they melt them. Nickels might be a stretch now, but it might not pay to ship them back. It is not illegal for the Chinese to melt them.
3. Dimes and quarters are worth far more as a coin then they are for scrap. Roughly 10X.

[highroller4321]

loose coins from all of those cars would be from so many different countries. Is the recycling process so highly refined that coins can be efficiently separated from the various other small metallic objects that turn up? Is the labor so cheap that all the coins can be picked out by hand and then further sorted to get just the U.S. coins out of the mix? The video referenced in the article says only dimes and quarters are in the crates. What about all the pennies and nickels? From my own personal experience finding coins while cleaning my car, the coins are more likely to be pennies than anything else. These guys have 13 metric tons of dimes and quarters from scrapped cars. Their haul of pennies should weigh even more than that. Then there are all those nickels too. We all know it's illegal to melt the pennies and nickels so where did they all go? It all makes my think this company has been manufacturing mutilated coins just to take advantage of the program at the U.S. Mint.

1. Labor is probably cheap enough to have them hand sorted.
2. Pennies and nickels are worth more as scrap than they are as coins, so I presume that they melt them. Nickels might be a stretch now, but it might not pay to ship them back. It is not illegal for the Chinese to melt them.
3. Dimes and quarters are worth far more as a coin then they are for scrap. Roughly 10X.

+1 on all of those. We will all soon see there aren't any counterfeit coins! Lawsuit's are all now coming to a head and actually in court.

[knibloe]

loose coins from all of those cars would be from so many different countries. Is the recycling process so highly refined that coins can be efficiently separated from the various other small metallic objects that turn up? Is the labor so cheap that all the coins can be picked out by hand and then further sorted to get just the U.S. coins out of the mix? The video referenced in the article says only dimes and quarters are in the crates. What about all the pennies and nickels? From my own personal experience finding coins while cleaning my car, the coins are more likely to be pennies than anything else. These guys have 13 metric tons of dimes and quarters from scrapped cars. Their haul of pennies should weigh even more than that. Then there are all those nickels too. We all know it's illegal to melt the pennies and nickels so where did they all go? It all makes my think this company has been manufacturing mutilated coins just to take advantage of the program at the U.S. Mint.

1. Labor is probably cheap enough to have them hand sorted.
2. Pennies and nickels are worth more as scrap than they are as coins, so I presume that they melt them. Nickels might be a stretch now, but it might not pay to ship them back. It is not illegal for the Chinese to melt them.
3. Dimes and quarters are worth far more as a coin then they are for scrap. Roughly 10X.

+1 on all of those. We will all soon see there aren't any counterfeit coins! Lawsuit's are all now coming to a head and actually in court.

One last comment, I'm guessing that most of the coins are perfectly fine. It is just easier and cheaper to turn them in under the mutilated coin program than it is to count them and put them back into circulation.