Trump

[Thogey]

Very nice. No it's not a joke.
I did a little bit of time protecting the constitution, actually did DO something.
Thanks for clarifying your insult, frugi ,tough guy.
Some of us do and some of us talk.
Class act here boys.

[natsb88]

Anybody who votes for someone and fully knows the consequences of their actions are pieces of shiit.

Shouldn't people always do their best to fully know the consequences of their vote? I find people voting out of ignorance far more offensive than people voting for something I disagree with, but at least knowing what they are voting for.

A lot of Trump voters are misinformed on his past and his policies. They are ignoring threads like this that point out the potential problems of a Trump presidency. You said yourself you didn't read it. Trump has advocated (and is advocating) for policies that would infringe on constitutionally protected free speech and privacy. And that thing where SCOTUS found that the federal government cannot force people to purchase health insurance, but then said they could, only because the penalty is just a tax? Forget that loophole. Trump has pledged to implement universal healthcare. Everybody gets government healthcare, everybody must pay for it through taxes. Where is that in the constitution? Trump previously (right up until he decided to run for president) advocated for unconstitutional gun control measures and the unconstitutional private use of eminent domain. He still advocates for the unconstitutional detention of and military tribunals for US citizens, and thinks Snowden should be executed for exposing the scope of government surveillance on its own people, to its own people. We are supposed to forget about those too?

It's not as simple as Trump = good, Hillary = bad. That oversimplification and polarization is why we don't have substantive discussions in this country. People just eat up "the other side is evil" propaganda that comes out of both parties. They feel obligated to defend their candidate (however flawed that candidate may be) because they believe the "other side" is the end of the world. Rabid Hillary supporters believe that about Trump just as much as rabid Trump supporters believe it about Hillary.

We were actually having a pretty interesting, civil, substantive discussion here before you came in to crash it. Maybe you should read it. What you did here is exactly what you are complaining about people doing to you on social media. Ignore all of the context, policy, and debate, and just crap on anybody who doesn't completely agree with you. When was the last time that strategy yielded any positive results?

[Thogey]

I am not tough at all. In fact I am puny, overweight, small framed, weak kneed, and dont like the sight of blood.

Is this the "known consequences" of your actions?

I'm like frugi. I know I'm sick of taking care of people who won't care for themselves as well.

[Thogey]

War is over. frugi and I have things in common.

We will vote for Trump and neither of us has a hope of talking my mom into being a supporter of the second amendment.

[frugi]

Anybody who votes for someone and fully knows the consequences of their actions are pieces of shiit.

Shouldn't people always do their best to fully know the consequences of their vote? I find people voting out of ignorance far more offensive than people voting for something I disagree with, but at least knowing what they are voting for.

Yes. I agree 100%.

We were actually having a pretty interesting, civil, substantive discussion here before you came in to crash it. Maybe you should read it. What you did here is exactly what you are complaining about people doing to you on social media. Ignore all of the context, policy, and debate, and just crap on anybody who doesn't completely agree with you. When was the last time that strategy yielded any positive results?

What about my statement I made do you consider crashing the entire discussion?

I stated my personal opinion. I dont think that stating my personal opinion requires I spend 2 days reading 10 pages of posts.

Only after I stated my opinion was I attacked.........and forced to defend myself, and my beliefs......

So, as nate puts it, if you use scary or loud words, and are in disagreement with him than you are probably just here to crash the pretty interesting, civil, substantive discussion........ So, all you folks you havent commented yet, be careful if you decide to step in and type something nate might chastise you for wrecking and crashing everything.

I have not read any of anyones replies,, they are all too long. But with that said, I AM voting for Trump, and I am sick to death about hearing from all the never trumpers from every aspect of my life........Ted Cruz is a loser. He LOST.....its over for him, and now his career is wrecked as well because he is a gigantic pussy, and whines like a female dog. Trump will be elected POTUS end of story....Anybody who doesnt like that you had better change your tune, there is NO other alternative.....it is either Trump or Hillary. If you are for hillary than you are a POS, and deserve everything you will get. Unless Trump is elected we are fuct forever. With that said, I know what hillary will do with supreme court nominations, I have no idea what Trump would do..... I have no choice but to vote for Trump and hope he doesnt turn out to be a tyrant like Obama and Hillary.

[frugi]

War is over. frugi and I have things in common.

We will vote for Trump and neither of us has a hope of talking my mom into being a supporter of the second amendment.

Actually, I dont mind calling your mom on the phone and having a discussion with her.

[Thogey]

War is over. frugi and I have things in common.

We will vote for Trump and neither of us has a hope of talking my mom into being a supporter of the second amendment.

Actually, I dont mind calling your mom on the phone and having a discussion with her.

Trust me, if you value what sanity you have left you will put that out of your mind right now
I wasn't allowed toy guns, my friends had to check them at the door.

Can you imagine the joy I felt when I sent her the picture of the AK-47 I partially paid for with her christmas present?

[natsb88]

Andrew, you didn't come in and say "I support Trump, here's why."

You came in and said that everybody who isn't supporting Trump is supporting Hillary and is a piece of shiit.

You don't see the difference?

I don't mind when people disagree with me. I'm happy to have a conversation and defend my position. But I don't take it to the petty level of, "if you disagree with me, you're a piece of shiit." Which is exactly what you did here, in your first post, without reading any of the existing conversation.

You are of course free to believe whatever you want to believe, but you should know that your attitude, that type of post, is exactly what the anti-Trumpers you despise feed on. When you post that kind of stuff out in the open, you give them ammunition. That's the whole two-party game.

[frugi]

Andrew, you didn't come in and say "I support Trump, here's why."

You came in and said that everybody who isn't supporting Trump is supporting Hillary and is a piece of shiit.

You don't see the difference?

I don't mind when people disagree with me. I'm happy to have a conversation and defend my position. But I don't take it to the petty level of, "if you disagree with me, you're a piece of shiit." Which is exactly what you did here, in your first post, without reading any of the existing conversation.

You are of course free to believe whatever you want to believe, but you should know that your attitude, that type of post, is exactly what the anti-Trumpers you despise feed on. When you post that kind of stuff out in the open, you give them ammunition. That's the whole two-party game.

Actually, that is NOT AT ALL what I said...... NOW YOU ARE MAKING STUFF UP to fit your agenda.

You really should re-read my post. IT is there for everyone to read........

I have not read any of anyones replies,, they are all too long. But with that said, I AM voting for Trump, and I am sick to death about hearing from all the never trumpers from every aspect of my life........Ted Cruz is a loser. He LOST.....its over for him, and now his career is wrecked as well because he is a gigantic pussy, and whines like a female dog. Trump will be elected POTUS end of story....Anybody who doesnt like that you had better change your tune, there is NO other alternative.....it is either Trump or Hillary. If you are for hillary than you are a POS, and deserve everything you will get. Unless Trump is elected we are fuct forever. With that said, I know what hillary will do with supreme court nominations, I have no idea what Trump would do..... I have no choice but to vote for Trump and hope he doesnt turn out to be a tyrant like Obama and Hillary.

ANTI-TRUMPERS HAVE NO SOLUTION......SO WHO CARES WHAT AMMO THEY HAVE, ITS ONLY BLANKS.

[Treetop]

Treetop - in the face of examples of countries with protectionist policies that are in financial distress or ruin, you deny the protectionist policies had anything to do with it. In counties with protectionist policies that have a middle class (unsustainable though it may be), you credit protectionist policies with creating it. In reality there are countless other variables at play, but it's clear you have singled out protectionism, and have decided that such policies only have a positive impact, and that any negative outcomes are the fault of something else. Nobody is going to convince you that Trump's plan won't work. You decided it will, and everywhere you look you are interpreting data only to support what you already believe.
.

You really need to look closer Nate. All of that was easy to say but you are the one with bias in the way of seeing. Go back to looking at Japan. Read from several sources. Protecting their industry wasnt a trigger for any major issue they face. In the listed chile they went from a complete dictatorship to having a bit of free enterprise not even an influx of a mass amount of free trade and did way better. Well of course. I never said they only provide a positive impact no idea why you still insist this. I literally cannot even find a nation with a middle class that didnt use protectionism as Ive discussed. If there were nations where protectionist policy itself was a trigger for their troubles Id agree it didnt work. You sure didnt give any such examples yet. I never study an issue like this trying to porve myself right, I do it to prove myself wrong. Im not wrong about this though, your ideal are clearly blinding you. I mean you are calling a full dictatorship in chile "protectionism", then equating a bit of free enterprise inspired by a libertarian you like as "free trade". You really cant see the difference here? Go study Japan more, their issues are obvious as is the fact they are industrial leaders several of those industries wouldnt have gotten off the ground at all without protectionism. I showed you the south korea example already, have you seen the book from one of the designers of their rise? They equate it all with protectionism which they scaled back parts of decades later but not most of it. Ive read from many other individual nations though as well, same story over and over. Have you studied how the IMF and world bank works yet? I have, same pattern over and over. They prescribe the same answers but it causes the same issues over and over. Large swaths of the third world stay that way because of that "free trade". Considering the examples you used thus far, all with mentions of on of your hero libertarian I think its rather obvious you havent dug terribly deep into this. You believe you found trusted experts who did that for you. Except they were selling something.

Fundamentally it boils down to this: we both know that our spending is unsustainable and that our middle class is living beyond its means. You are advocating for increased government intervention in the markets to prop up that unsustainable lifestyle. I am opposed to that route of action, and would like to remove as much existing market intervention as possible. You and I have some fundamental differences in what the role of government ought to be. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine

I want the government out of the way in 1000 ways it is currently, but yes I do want to foster a slightly more level playing field when relating to other nations. I dont want to meet the third world closer to the middle. Yes I do believe the founders of the US had it right, and history back them well imo. In fact as a nation WE started from close to nothing and built an economic powerhouse. Other nations the IMF deals with that start from nothing are all on their knees decades later if they follow their model including free trade whereas those that ignore them and used protectionism all rose, several of them at meteoric levels. Im not convinced I cant change your mind on this once I show you more of the nations following the same patterns. Although maybe I cant if you cannot see that yes government actions lead to their issues it wasnt the ones that made them an economic powerhouse. Their markets are not flooded with cheap third world goods in the way ours is. If it had been its pretty obvious theyd be much worse off. You never in fact made a case they would be with any meat to it just insisted it was so. It was a grower friend of mine from a long dead forum that convinced me. Frankly I used to make the same argument you do and list my favorite idealist libertarians as well. As someone relating more to libertarians then the other major parties Ive been reading on this issue on and off for a few years now. Ive known they were wrong on this issue for some time now.

As for what you said to frugi if you go around the net youll see the same type of thing on both sides. It is indeed a shame. But if such actions are driving people from trump it would have to drive people from hillary as well. I dont think Ive witnessed it at anywhere close to this level in past elections I followed, but then I didnt follow any others at this level either. That said Ive seen people atleast try to provide examples of why trump is better this part seems much rarer from hillaries side. My brothers wont even admit to their own mom they support trump. She hasnt called me in weeks because I tried to convince her trump was better. Im a racist misogynist now apparently just like her corporate TV news told her I was.

[Treetop]

As for the protectionist versus free trade debate, feel free to add whatever you like of course Nate but weve both made our cases here. I will make a better case with real examples here soon. Id much rather see you list other examples that support your stance then just assertions you are (or me) right. The back and forth our last several posts hasnt had much of that really. Lets get more into the meat of it.

On a side note, has anyone seen anything like this with our media? I mean at this level. It is amazing to watch, clearly our corporate media is beyond biased. IT is amazing to watch. Trump still closing the gap in the latest polls btw and only recently started running real ads. I still say its his election to loose.

I do think if trumps wins it will shake up politics immensely and help foment the end of the two party system. Especially if he gets a few of his better plans acted on.

Also as far as trumps past guns stances, he said things like...

"I generally oppose gun control," he wrote then, "but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today's internet technology we should be able to tell within 72 hours if a potential gun owner has a record."

I honestly interpret this as someone who doesnt know much about guns. Those past bans didnt in fact block all semi auto rifles at all. My mini 14s for instance werent hindered in any way. It was an emotional law more then anything. His later wording and stances suggest he actually learned about the issues in the meantime. Its another issue but I honestly wonder if riling people up about guns was a tactic to get the US to arm itself for some reason, like a war with china type thing. I say this because the law was more a token then biting and since that time the largest foot army on earth by multiple rose up in the american people who now on avg actually store a bit of ammo. Obama also had a decent period with a dem congress and never tried to act on it.

That said the biggest threat far and away isnt so much new gun control laws as it is how we interpret what we have, and key for that is the supreme court. I think its clear trump stands far and above what hillary will stick into the courts.

Lefty judges routinely work against the constitution and our laws often even citing international or foreign law/ideals in making decisions. Eons worse then what trump or hillary if the supreme court wasnt an appointed position could ever do to these things. Reinterpreting past laws has warped us more then anything. I have no idea how the current mindset on the commerce clause can still stand the light of day for decades in a row. Its bizarre. But in a sense Im glad interpretations changed rather then actually changing the constitution itself. We might dust off our old friend one day, maybe.

[Treetop]

Trust me, if you value what sanity you have left you will put that out of your mind right now
I wasn't allowed toy guns, my friends had to check them at the door.

Can you imagine the joy I felt when I sent her the picture of the AK-47 I partially paid for with her christmas present?

LOL sounds like my mom a bit. She once put me to the floor for pointing a "unloaded" squirt gun towards her. A friend of hers owned this shop and one of my favorite toys I had for a few months there until she stole it was this gun that had a cork or stopper of some sort o the end that would pop out once you pumped then pulled the trigger. She apparently chewed him out for years over that and not long until she stole it from me and tossed it. She about died when she realized I own several rifles and revolvers on a visit her one time. She is the type that does really seem to think guns shoot people, not people. Doesnt matter what the heck you say nothing will change it. In her mind Im a crazy dangerous militant since I homestead, live off the beaten path and am armed. I also GASP bothered to try to convince her otherwise which only convinced her more. Sadly I rarely even talk to her now mostly over this issue. Im a family oriented kinda guy but she makes it impossible to relate to her.

[Thogey]

Dude you are a crazy dangerous militant. You are a homesteading gangsta.

and we love you for it.

[Treetop]

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... ed-police/

Another thing leaked about soros, he wants federal control of police. Again we have leaked email proof hillary acts on what soros wants. Also obama has said he wants federal control of police. This is deeply connected to the election because we will get it if hillary wins. Havent seen trump support it as far as I know. Black lives matter is backed by soros and obama and others already calling for federal control in response to it. As I showed before soros wants open borders and agrees with nate on free trade. I bet he smiles when he sees all those third world nations who can never get real economies off the ground and end up mostly selling resources.

[Thogey]

Dude you are a crazy dangerous militant. You are a homesteading gangsta.

and we love you for it.

Also, you might vote for Trump, you are the biggest fan of self-reliance and prudence I think I have contact with.

These attributes also makes you a RACIST! Ha!

[Thogey]

Thanks for the link. I am home alone today.

But it is really obnoxious with the ads. It creamed my computer.

Let's see in BLM want's Federal Guidlines if the election does not go their way.

[natsb88]

Actually, that is NOT AT ALL what I said...... NOW YOU ARE MAKING STUFF UP to fit your agenda.

I read your post three times. I just read it again. It still says the same thing. Not voting for Trump means you support Hillary which means you are a POS. Maybe that's not what you meant it to say?

What is my agenda? I don't support Trump or Hillary. I don't want either one to be president. This is a Trump thread but I've criticized Hillary plenty too (and you already said you didn't read the thread anyway).

I like Gary Johnson and Darrell Castle. I know neither of them are going to win. I am an equal opportunity critic when it comes to Trump and Hillary. But according to you, I am a POS for not supporting your guy.

[Treetop]

Dude you are a crazy dangerous militant. You are a homesteading gangsta.

and we love you for it.

Also, you might vote for Trump, you are the biggest fan of self-reliance and prudence I think I have contact with.

These attributes also makes you a RACIST! Ha!

If you ask my mom and a few others Im related to Im definitely racist. I didnt like obama, lets ignore it was for most of the same reasons I wasnt a fan of bush. I became much more racist though when I supported trump. That took me from mildly racist to full blown aryan brotherhood apparently. I could list many things I did in the past highlight just how not racist I am but thats boring and my mom knows them all and none of those register with her. Her TV told her anti obama pro trump is racist so its true. There are cultures and sub cultures I dont like but I couldnt care in the least what race someone is.

Definitely voting for trump though, unless we find out hes also working for hillary somehow. This will be the first time I voted for a major party. Ive been voting for third parties since I could vote. Far from perfect but I do see this as a pivotal election. Hillary is the most corrupt politician we have public proof of in our history. Even worse case scenario trump is a wild card that will shake up the system and hillary, we know what we get, and its horrible. I do believe trump with all his faults wants a better path, and in his own way is working for us instead of some weird back room deal most dems and reps do. I dont even consider it a lesser of two evils vote, I consider it a barely good vote. But a barely good vote for someone who can actually win. Cant fault Nate for going johnson though, he did pretty solid in NM but hes wrong on TPP. Even if Nate likes free trade Id think he might not like international courts able to force us to subvert our sovereignty? I voted for johnson in the past.

[Thogey]

That took me from mildly racist to full blown aryan brotherhood apparently.

OMG I'm gonna crap my pants

That's it. Funny hyperbole.

"Look at the guy with the gadsen flag, full blown aryan brotherhood."

[frugi]

Actually, that is NOT AT ALL what I said...... NOW YOU ARE MAKING STUFF UP to fit your agenda.

I read your post three times. I just read it again. It still says the same thing. Not voting for Trump means you support Hillary which means you are a POS. Maybe that's not what you meant it to say?

What is my agenda? I don't support Trump or Hillary. I don't want either one to be president. This is a Trump thread but I've criticized Hillary plenty too (and you already said you didn't read the thread anyway).

I like Gary Johnson and Darrell Castle. I know neither of them are going to win. I am an equal opportunity critic when it comes to Trump and Hillary. But according to you, I am a POS for not supporting your guy.

Again, that is not what I said. Here is what I said

"If you are for hillary than you are a POS"...

So....., TO REITERATE, IF YOU ARE VOTING FOR HILLARY YOU ARE A POS.

You can construe what I said other ways, or perceive it to mean something other than the words I used.
You keep stating that I said... Not voting for Trump means you support Hillary which means you are a POS.
I never stated those words, those are your words. I am not going to continue to argue grammar.

TO BE FAIR I ALSO SAID THESE THINGS AS WELL.....

"I am simply stating over and over again,....if you are that person that focuses on bashing Trump, with no other solution you are a POS. and your actions could lead to the end of our freedoms..... chew on that."

[johnbrickner]

Good Frugi:

Thank you for posting. It's given me openings to also post. I'm sorry to hear you've been attacked for your views on the internet. Treetop could give you stories and advice on the same I'm sure. The questions I posed earlier were to stimulate discussion only. You'll notice I chose my words and punctuation carefully so as not to cause contention nor much to argue with.

. . . your actions could lead to the end of our freedoms..... chew on that."[/b]

I'll make this one easy. How about regardless of who you vote for, your actions could lead to the end of our freedoms? or rather, is it already happening?

And just to keep this on subject: Neither Trump nor Clinton should be president as all we are being given is the illusion of choice.

I didn't realize George Carlin had the same thoughts a number of years back so for your viewing pleasure I'll post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC_wjQtfhZQ

Starts around 3:00 but the whole is worth watching.

[Treetop]

Personally John with a stance like yours I still think Trump is a great pick. He will shake things up imo. I also think he has shown us the fracture in the democrats are as deep or close as those forming in the republicans. Both parties are failing and that is a good thing, although on the left especially Im not sure what replaces it will be better. Maybe worse if this "social justice warriors" thing persists on its current track. Among younger folks more associate with neither party. The left leaning ones just tried to give us Bernie though and while he isnt as corrupt as hillary his ideas were mostly horrible. Although he was right on TPP I have hope for the right that they will have something better emerge as the republicans fall in coming years.

When I look at the "republican revolution" on the right in 94 that gave the house back to reps after 40 years for the first time in response to gun issues I have a bit of hope. About that time Fox rose imo as a business of course but also to keep them on the reservation I expect. Because conditioning from the lefty media wasnt working anymore. The tea party seems to have been quickly taken into the fold of the republicans and subverting what it seemed to start as. But imo anyway the right is struggling for real reform where the left wants to tear things down. My take anyway, YMMV. I hope libertarians are part of the new right as republicans finally fail in coming years which I honestly expect them too.

[johnbrickner]

OK, Zac knows me by now from personal correspondence and posts here. So I will come clean. I like to do whatever I can to challenge, shake up, change, or make things difficult for the status quo. I've been doing this since before I was eligible for draft registration during the Vietnam (police action) War.

You can try to recruit me to vote for Trump but, I already did in the primary. Why, because NY state law requires you to reregister your party affiliation some X number of weeks prior to the primary and I couldn't make the date. Why was I a republican? Ron Paul!. What was I going to change to? Democrat. Why? Bernie, not because I liked him but because I wanted to see what kind of tyranny America wanted to live under for a change. That being Socialistic or Fascist, Bernie vs Trump (my bet for that one was on Trump).

What we may have gotten is status quo Hillary (corporate) Fascism vs Trump (Fascist dictatorship? we'll see). Time will tell if he gets elected but (except for Brixit) I don't believe those in control will allow it to happen. Those in power will do what ever it takes to stay in power and those who are not will try to do even more.

Kind of reminds me of the book, It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis 1935. If you have read it you will see the similarities for your self and understand exactly where I am coming from. If you haven't you can find it here: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html

Speaking of which, how many of you knew about the Silver (Legion) Shirts? America's brand of Germany's Brown Shirts and Italy's Black Shirts? I promise you were not taught it in public school. It's my understanding they had an organization in virtually every county in the US of A in it's day. They are mentioned in Lewis' book. Think books almost 100 years old are not worth reading? Look again. Ours is only a very thinly opaqued veil disguised form of corporate fascism. It will exist only as long as we refuse to see it . . . and buy into the nationalistic and brain washing propaganda they are feeding us. So long as we accept it, we will not be able to change it.

As I used to tell Libertarian Party Members while infighting, "we are not the enemy" (in this case Dems vs Rebus). "The enemy is big government's power over us". I have since added "International Corporation's power over us and influence over government" to the enemy.

The only answer I have found is the complete decentralization of national governments and international corporations with, a corresponding increase in the rights, powers, resilience, and interdependence of individuals and communities, followed by the region and state. Hence, a local government at the top style of power structure. The Cantons of Switzerland seem a similar structure. The Theory Z, and inverted pyramid style management also comes to mind.

Now I also believe it is very likely possible they will be responsible for their own downfall. I situation I am most happily willing to assist every legal way I can. However, it's what picks up the pieces I am mostly afraid of if the answer above is not significantly in place at the time.

[Treetop]

http://polling.reuters.com/#!poll/TM651 ... potlight/1

Trump has it within .6% now and only just started TV ads and we havent had wikileaks show us what he claimed was proof of illegal activity from hillary yet. Also historically any candidate from the party who held office for 8 years in this case the democrats has a 2-4% disadvantage historically no matter what polls show the reps will be slightly more aggressive then polling indicates and the dems slight less, and this is consistently 2-4%. This is also the polling source trump was previously back by like 12 points and last I checked included more dems in it then is represented in the population and about the right amount of reps. I dont think her speech where she claimed a vast race based conspiracy ruled by putin was leading the republican party, through the "alt right" which seems to refer to sources like breitbart, drudge and infowars. Shes been dropping fast ever since that speech, the same speech she laid out this theory she also insisted conspiracy theory fueled the republicans currently. Like the "conspiracy" there was anything fishy with her foundation and a few others.

[68Camaro]

John et al- I've never had a love of the establishment but it (my views) have changed over the years, slowly. I would put my journey as misgivings 25 years ago, hopeful disappointment 15 years ago, and the start of really strong dislike 4 years ago. A year or more ago it turned to disgust and disparagement for both parties. So I guess I've been slow to come around. Various reasons for that, probably, that make no difference to the discussion. Until this spring I've registered independent (so I guess I wasn't really ever happy with the bulk of the republicans) while voting conservative overall. But I will still say that while I have some libertarian tendencies I depart from that in areas where I believe some central federal control is required or preferred. So I've never been strongly enough aligned with Libertarians to vote that way, as some of the thinking turns me off.

But, it has become increasingly obvious that great care has to be exercised with central power because it is now clear (to me) that the natural human tendency is to grab and centralize all power. Thus, given enough time - unless you make it inherently constitutionally impossible to federalize (and if you do that badly you run the risk of inadequate collective power/response such that other external powers will simply conquer you) - you will always end up in the same place, a dictatorship of one type of another. The only question is how much time it takes. Ugh. Not nice. And now there is now nowhere to run, as our Western European forefathers (for those of us with that ancestry) were able to do when they came to NA.

I do believe in a God with a plan as well as a sense of justice (along with grace and mercy), so while I do make my political views known, I eventually have to sit back, take a deep breath, and watch this play out as a great (though sad) spectator sport, wondering exactly how and in what time what things will happen, which He already knows. God is a just God, and he will allow those that choose to ignore him to have their way and reap their appropriate result, and we might just be at that point. Sporadically, over the eons great revivals of spirit have occurred, and only that type of event within our country will truly reverse the course we're on.