Consider US 40% silver coin as part of your wealth storage

[neilgin1]

I like how at the bottom of the video you posted Neil it says "if this compilation made you laugh please like this video". Well it doesn't make me laugh. It makes me cry. If people act like this over a TV imagine how they will react after the collapse happens and a mob of them come for YOUR food and supplies that you have stockpiled? You might have a couple of guns and you can use them but if there are a hundred of them at your door you can only kill so many. You will get overrun and I don't see much you can do about it.

if city/suburbian dementia's EVER make it to the back country, you'll hear them a mile away, just set your boys out triangulated, wait till they get in close. you save old motor oil?..you have mogas? yoo save old ganky bottles? you save old rags?

do I have to say more?

flames and dozens of dementias's dropping? the rest should scatter and flee...and if they DONT? thats why you have extra mag's with you.

its your head you have to get right, get cold, ruthless, remember to breathe, just shoot rhythmically, steady, just like you were shooting chucks or praire dogs, when its over, you'll probably heave,always happens the first time, just let it out, bucket the dead out to the road, take a few heads off, stake them to ironwood poles or t-posts, take some tree orange spray paint and write "KEEP OUT" on the road, BIG letters.....burn the rest, with gas and old wood in the middle of the road.

I think that would send a clear message, don't you?

sounds cold hearted don't it? you saw the video, that plastic junk they're ripping at?, it could easily be your kids, wife, grandkids, God forbid. That video? That isn't normal behavior, normal people don't act like that, so these aren't normal times, so we adjust accordingly. I WISH it was the 50's, Ike was President, but this is the day we live in, things aren't normal, folk don't act decent, and the trend is that its going to get worse.

i'm not talking about a wandering starving pair of parents with a child or two, give them a bag of food, water, but then they gotta go...in peace. '

maybe this all doesn't happen while we're alive...that's good, I always say, "assume the worst, you'll be pleasantly surprised".

n

[Treetop]

Personally I doubt any "raider" or zombie types would last that long if society crashed hard enough they were running around stealing food. half their targets wont even have much of anything to steal but will still take some of them down with them. Around 1/3 of the nation is armed. Our gov is also heavily prepped for this. Seems they see that potential once our musical chairs game runs out.

Personally Im much more concerned about how much of our civil liberties we will continue to loose as we adapt to the issues weve built into our system.

If youre truly concerned about this and have land plant crops no one knows are food. Jerusalem artichokes look like wild sunflowers without seeds large enough to harvest but their roots out produce even potatoes and can be stored right in the ground. Lots of wild greens. also other grains like sand drop seed and indian rice grass and tons of other stuff. Ive got lots of this stuff growing as weeds myself. Way to many to list, especially for those of you in wetter areas then myself. jerusalem artichokes are king here though. easy to grow, low inputs, low water needs, and like I said can be stored right in the ground. Harvestable most of the year assuming you can dig the soil. a bunch of calories from little effort.

[Rastatodd]

I am so glad this thread has been bumped to the top. I have read this thread over and over and get excited that I have kept the course and continue stacking Kennedy 40%ers. When ever I happen to do a buy on a bullion site I try like h*ll to cost average down. I have never looked at acquiring my Kennedy's from Ampex or Provident and now feel so dumb not doing so. But when I started stacking four or five years ago I knew nothing and now know more than I knew than and still am learning. I have been very blessed not to have been put in a position that I have had to sell any portion of my stack to meet my everyday needs. My acquisition of 40% coinage is long term. Carry on and for God's sake stack on!

Just an added note, I see roll searching on my radar. Can't wait till the bank opens on Monday.

[beauanderos]

I am so glad this thread has been bumped to the top. I have read this thread over and over and get excited that I have kept the course and continue stacking Kennedy 40%ers. When ever I happen to do a buy on a bullion site I try like h*ll to cost average down. I have never looked at acquiring my Kennedy's from Ampex or Provident and now feel so dumb not doing so. But when I started stacking four or five years ago I knew nothing and now know more than I knew than and still am learning. I have been very blessed not to have been put in a position that I have had to sell any portion of my stack to meet my everyday needs. My acquisition of 40% coinage is long term. Carry on and for God's sake stack on!

Just an added note, I see roll searching on my radar. Can't wait till the bank opens on Monday.

Depending upon the region you live in, Todd, roll-searching can turn out to be a fun and, at times, lucrative hobby. Keep the emphasis on fun and you won't get as frustrated from the great many skunks you will
come across. Check out the roll searching threads that track half dollar finds to see what I mean, and then get a sense of whether it is worth (mostly your time) to drive to the bank, tie up $500 for a box, spend gas
money, then unwrap (and rewrap) fifty individual rolls, then find a different bank to deposit (dump) them at... and repeat the process. Sometimes, you might find one or two 40% halves (which I decided were not worth
the effort involved), rarely you may find one 90%.... but on very rare occasions you can come across a Thogey's Widow, a motherlode of someone's lifetime hoard, that could hold as many as two or three 90% and five or
six 40%... in EACH roll.

Once that happens, you're hooked.

[silverstacker]

I am so glad this thread has been bumped to the top. I have read this thread over and over and get excited that I have kept the course and continue stacking Kennedy 40%ers. When ever I happen to do a buy on a bullion site I try like h*ll to cost average down. I have never looked at acquiring my Kennedy's from Ampex or Provident and now feel so dumb not doing so. But when I started stacking four or five years ago I knew nothing and now know more than I knew than and still am learning. I have been very blessed not to have been put in a position that I have had to sell any portion of my stack to meet my everyday needs. My acquisition of 40% coinage is long term. Carry on and for God's sake stack on!

Just an added note, I see roll searching on my radar. Can't wait till the bank opens on Monday.

Depending upon the region you live in, Todd, roll-searching can turn out to be a fun and, at times, lucrative hobby. Keep the emphasis on fun and you won't get as frustrated from the great many skunks you will
come across. Check out the roll searching threads that track half dollar finds to see what I mean, and then get a sense of whether it is worth (mostly your time) to drive to the bank, tie up $500 for a box, spend gas
money, then unwrap (and rewrap) fifty individual rolls, then find a different bank to deposit (dump) them at... and repeat the process. Sometimes, you might find one or two 40% halves (which I decided were not worth
the effort involved), rarely you may find one 90%.... but on very rare occasions you can come across a Thogey's Widow, a motherlode of someone's lifetime hoard, that could hold as many as two or three 90% and five or
six 40%... in EACH roll.

Once that happens, you're hooked.

There's no doubt if you know me that I subscribe to that exact message Ray just said.

It's a hobby for me that I enjoy and costs me nothing and is fun for me. Unfortunately, I didn't start mentioning or posting my finds over the last 18 months or so on that thread. I've been very lucky I guess you can call it. Or maybe fortunate is a better word to use.

It's really up to the individual person and the hoops and hassles they have to go through to order, pick the boxes up, search and then ultimately dump (and from what I hear people sometimes must dump at different locations). Luckily for me, I have a certain bank chain with many branches that have coin counters next to all of their teller counters that you dump yourself that's no charge. This makes the tellers happier as they do nothing but take my slip and deposit.

If you can get into a bank like this it makes the hobby more fun. Fortunately, I live where there are 6 branches within a 15 mile radius (3 of which are within 2 miles of each other). I'm then able to call ahead and place orders on a schedule so your dumping and picking up at the same time which cuts down on all the hassles. I've become very friendly with the branch, division and the district managers and the understand what I need which makes the ordering process through Wells Fargo seemless once you can get them on a schedule for their order days (which in my case is Wednesday's).

The key is to get to the manager on board so you're not calling the individual tellers and having them scribble on a piece of paper to order 4 boxes for me. It's much easier to discuss with the manager and work off of a set schedule so their not over burdened as that's when relationships become diluted and resentment comes into play. Not good

Many banks aren't set up this way but doing a local search within a comfortable radius for you and making some calls might just open doors for those that enjoy the hobby

[everything]

That's why I roll searched halves, for pure fun. Old british pennies are the same size, Australian half dollars, some bar chips, colorized halves, proofs, newer low mintage, and the most .. marked somehow, I just dumped at a different place than I acquired them. I did it for about two years, you do run into good boxes eventually. I would save the the almost uncirculated and spend them, people would go wow.. The world secretly loves Kennedy half dollars, except the mint came out with a special 4 coin set last year, 250 thousand mintage, and they still can't sell out, they should have dropped the price.. Most of the general population has no clue that 65-69(70), even have silver in them, over 700 million minted! Out of the last two boxes I searched one had 10 oz. of pretty much uncirculated 40% in it, yes over three rolls of 40%, a rare but very exciting find. But right now the melt value on one of these half dollars is only about $2. Many have laughed at 40%, saying go get a part time job, spend the money on 40% you'll acquire way more than you ever will searching.

[silverstacker]

That's why I roll searched halves, for pure fun. Old british pennies are the same size, Australian half dollars, some bar chips, colorized halves, proofs, newer low mintage, and the most .. marked somehow, I just dumped at a different place than I acquired them. I did it for about two years, you do run into good boxes eventually. I would save the the almost uncirculated and spend them, people would go wow.. The world secretly loves Kennedy half dollars, except the mint came out with a special 4 coin set last year, 250 thousand mintage, and they still can't sell out, they should have dropped the price.. Most of the general population has no clue that 65-69(70), even have silver in them, over 700 million minted! Out of the last two boxes I searched one had 10 oz. of pretty much uncirculated 40% in it, yes over three rolls of 40%, a rare but very exciting find. But right now the melt value on one of these half dollars is only about $2. Many have laughed at 40%, saying go get a part time job, spend the money on 40% you'll acquire way more than you ever will searching.

It's not about a "job" but the hobby itself for searchers like us.

[Contradiction]

What a great thread! I have got to start searching half dollars on a more regular basis. I bought $90 face value a while back but it was skunky.

Has anyone ever had success asking about coins at garage sales? Maybe somebody who needs the money they could make by selling their old books and clothes might remember the coins in the back of the sock drawer.

[Recyclersteve]

Hey Contradiction, thanks for digging into the archives and finding this one. I totally forgot I posted on this thread in 2013. I have now bookmarked it, because it deserves to have that done.

I do want to add another valid negative aspect to 40% silver halves, at least for those who live in the state of Ohio. As of 1/1/17 the state of Ohio does collect tax on the sale of 40% halves, even though it doesn't collect it for 90% silver coins.

The reason is because the 90% silver coins are primarily silver, whereas the 40% halves (and also 35% silver war nickels) are not.

Now if I lived in Ohio (I don't) I'd consider going to a neighboring state to buy 40%ers. From Toledo I'd go to the Detroit area and from Cincinnati, I'd go into the Covington, KY area (near the Cincy airport). That way (presumably at least) I could avoid paying the sales tax.

By the way, my source on the tax info is the website http://www.thecoinologist.com. Look to the right and click on Sales Tax Laws/State by State Breakdown.

[coppernickel]

First, I consider 40%, a billon round, to have good value for wealth storage.

Second, making a table to show wear. the 40% silver coin is a core of 20% silver clad with 80% silver on the outside. These details leave lots of confusion.
Unlike 90% silver coins and even 35% nickel you can just calculate the slicks by weight, these 40% will loose the cover and be left with the 20% core. I have not yet come across a 40% slick, some ugly ones, but no slicks.

[68Camaro]

Hey Contradiction, thanks for digging into the archives and finding this one. I don't remember ever seeing it!
...

.

It was quite awhile ago but...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26248&start=25#p246201

The tax issue in Ohio is interesting. Can anyone from there confirm in person?

[68Camaro]

First, I consider 40%, a billon round, to have good value for wealth storage.

Second, making a table to show wear. the 40% silver coin is a core of 20% silver clad with 80% silver on the outside. These details leave lots of confusion.
Unlike 90% silver coins and even 35% nickel you can just calculate the slicks by weight, these 40% will loose the cover and be left with the 20% core. I have not yet come across a 40% slick, some ugly ones, but no slicks.

There is a graph linked in the op that shows theoretical wear. It should be used with caution because of my later review of the variation in planet planchet weights. However very few 40% have much wear.

[Contradiction]

First, I consider 40%, a billon round, to have good value for wealth storage.

Second, making a table to show wear. the 40% silver coin is a core of 20% silver clad with 80% silver on the outside. These details leave lots of confusion.
Unlike 90% silver coins and even 35% nickel you can just calculate the slicks by weight, these 40% will loose the cover and be left with the 20% core. I have not yet come across a 40% slick, some ugly ones, but no slicks.

There is a graph linked in the op that shows theoretical wear. It should be used with caution because of my later review of the variation in planet weights. However very few 40% have much wear.

What are "planet weights?" My dad likes to make fun of an old song that says something about the moon and Jupiter aligning with Mars. Those planet weights?

[68Camaro]

Planchet weights. Autocorrect changed it on me. That's the name of the preformed round blank prior to stamping.

[Recyclersteve]

I posted this on another thread, but will add it here as well. Does anyone have any info to indicate what percent of 40% halves were thought to have been melted when silver spiked (mostly in 1979-80), but perhaps also to a lesser extent in 2011?

Can anyone confirm melting any 40% silver bags at any point in time?

[68Camaro]

I posted this on another thread, but will add it here as well. Does anyone have any info to indicate what percent of 40% halves were thought to have been melted when silver spiked (mostly in 1979-80), but perhaps also to a lesser extent in 2011?

Can anyone confirm melting any 40% silver bags at any point in time?

No idea. They are being melted now but at modest levels.

[Contradiction]

Planchet weights. Autocorrect changed it on me. That's the name of the preformed round blank prior to stamping.

I guess there is a word for everything. I had never thought about what to call a round piece of metal before it gets minted into a coin. Thanks!

[Recyclersteve]

One other point about 40% silver vs. 90% that should be considered is this. I think it is fairly safe to assume that if you went to a decent sample size of coin dealers, you would likely find a lot more 90% silver available than 40%. I don't have any hard data to prove it, but I'd imagine that dealers would likely say it is easier for them to sell their 90% than their 40%. I guess this is just another way of saying that 90% likely trades with smaller spreads than 40%, which has already been pointed out in this thread.

So, if I took a bag of 40% and a bag of 90% both to dealers that don't have large operations, I would expect to take a bath on the price of the 40%. I might even meet with resistance on being able to sell the 40% at all (or they might say something like "I'll give you $1 a coin for them", which is ridiculous).

[mflugher]

What is not taxable...

…
Sales of investment metal bullion and investment coins. (Effective January 1, 2017)
…

Question #2 3rd from last main bullet point


26. What is an “investment coin”?
An investment coin means any coin composed primarily (more than 50%) of gold, silver, platinum, or palladium.

Source:

https://www.tax.ohio.gov/sales_and_use/ ... asics.aspx

Confirmed. I'm an Ohio store owner

[68Camaro]

One other point about 40% silver vs. 90% that should be considered is this. I think it is fairly safe to assume that if you went to a decent sample size of coin dealers, you would likely find a lot more 90% silver available than 40%. I don't have any hard data to prove it, but I'd imagine that dealers would likely say it is easier for them to sell their 90% than their 40%. I guess this is just another way of saying that 90% likely trades with smaller spreads than 40%, which has already been pointed out in this thread.

So, if I took a bag of 40% and a bag of 90% both to dealers that don't have large operations, I would expect to take a bath on the price of the 40%. I might even meet with resistance on being able to sell the 40% at all (or they might say something like "I'll give you $1 a coin for them", which is ridiculous).

So why would you purposely "take a bath" if you know that's not a good way to sell them? The "worst bath" in cash that you should take is ~10% below spot, because you can trade them for brand new 99.9 rounds (which are normally at a slight premium to spot) at a 15% below spot price point. If your point is that they are less marketable than 90% or 99.9%, I think that's a given, and has been well discussed. But if you can get 40% at less than spot when 90% is trading for more than spot, you can sometimes find value. If you don't find value, don't do it.

[Recyclersteve]

I'm only saying I'd take a bath if I was desperate and felt like I had to sell 40% silver halves to raise funds for emergency expenses.

It's nice to see that a dealer from Ohio has confirmed what I said about sales tax being charged in that state on silver coins that are less than 50% silver (so 40% halves and war nickels). I wonder if the tax is charged to people from out of state. If not, there could be an opportunity for someone from out of state to buy on the cheap while visiting Ohio, since the dealer may have a hard time selling to someone locally who has to pay tax.

[SilverBandit22]

From what I've seen, you can normally get them fairly cheap. Most people would be able to afford a couple of rolls. I see it as a good option.

[mflugher]

I can sell 40% silver out of state at this time, however the taxability of it will be based on the location of the buyer. If within the US I'd have to look up the states sales tax regime and frankly its probably not worth my time unless you intended to buy $500 face or more... While the recent supreme court decision is clear in that large companies may be forced by states to collect sales tax despite no "nexus" within the buyers state. They clearly threw out some hints that smaller sellers would not be able to handle such compliance issues and would likely not find the same answer if challenged again by a smaller business. So small sellers are currently in the dark until further decisions are made on the federal and state level lol.


Frankly at current silver price I'm happy to just hold and not sell, or trade for other metals/fineness etc.

Re Pricing:
Just an FYI I can dump unlimited 40% at 85c below spot at any time of my choosing. That works out to 3.75x face at todays price of $14.20. I can buy on provident for $4.23 x face, and sell for a similar amount (in $1k lots) Apmex currently is out of stock (to buy from them) for > 1 roll pricing on 40%, their minimum purchase (sell to them) is $10k to get the listed pricing on sales. Keep in mind you are generally responsible for shipping both ways from these companies. (which can get expensive for properly insured packages) I can also send them directly to my smelter for approximately the same net value after smelting fees. Not that I would do that unless the price difference was quite a lot...


At 3.75x face (no tax) I don't suspect I'm going to get a much better offer from RC members just because of the sales tax issue, perhaps though.

< I fear this might be misconstrued as an offer to sell, and while I'm always buying and selling, this message is not intended to be a solicitation of such. >

[mflugher]

If not, there could be an opportunity for someone from out of state to buy on the cheap while visiting Ohio, since the dealer may have a hard time selling to someone locally who has to pay tax.

It should also be noted that "visiting" Ohio means you are physically present in Ohio, there is no "out of state visitors" exception to sales tax u go to the store and pay the same sales tax as anyone else. Only when shipping the products to out of state is there any question as to the stores requirement to charge sales tax.


(IE I could theoretically sell to an Ohio resident if they paid/requested delivery to out of state, I'm not required to and I don't check ID on buyers (except in situations where there is sufficient cash trading hands to trigger as CTR or SAR))

Don't overcomplicate it. When a seller from one state sells/ships to a buyer from a different state Sales tax is due in the buyers state but generally the seller is not required to collect and remit the sales tax to the buyers home state (unless it is the same state the seller is located in). In almost every state, the Buyer is required to pay Use tax on any items they manage to purchase without sales tax attached. Technically if you live in Ohio and you buy 40% halves from Provident or another out of state dealer, you are required to self report the purchase and pay the appropriate tax. (obviously nearly NOONE does this, but it is the law)


Unfortunately the Nexus situation is affected by recent Wayfair decision mentioned in previous post. Big companies generally know their requirements. Medium and small companies where the "compliance Costs" might be or are obvioulsy overwhelming to such a small operation have a nod from the SCOTUS that there should be or might be an "out" built into the decision if the court at some point in the future some other state sets the limit lower and the SCOTUS decides whether it's too onerous to force compliance on companies which don't meet the criterion proscribed by the South Dakota law in question. The trigger limit set by South Dakota is $100,000 in total sales or 200 or more distinct purchases delivered to SD per annum. Who knows what the "reasonable" number is, could it be $50k? 5k? 50 customers? 10 customers? Who knows, the limit isn't set, but $100k/200 is apparently "reasonable".

IMHO Congress has been thrice notified by the SCOTUS that it doesn't want to be deciding this. 1967 Hess V D.O.Revenue Illinois, 1992 Quill decision, and 2018 Wayfair decision the prevailing opinions all point out that congress has the full authority to overrule the decision and set an actual law that governs interstate commerce. Its a terrible shame that we permit these congressmen 80%+ win ratio on re elections... Congress is at fault for not straightening this out in the 90s...

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/1 ... 4_j4el.pdf

[Know Common Cents]

Might just be time to rethink 40% halves as a viable option. My LCS owner is getting nervous about discounting US 90% now for fear of being caught in a big squeeze and leaving large bucks on the table. He's much more inclined to discount 40% halves as they tend to train in along with the other, larger collections. If he has paid $2.75 or $3.00 per $1.00 face of 40% clad, he can be whittled down to $3.75 per $1.00 face just to get them out of the way. (The argument about 40% taking up a lot of room in storage capacity is certainly true. They do make reasonably-priced ballast at the bottom of my gun safe, however.)

Anyway, I like 'em. Time permitting, I can pick through a large bucket of these and snag the better ones. When time doesn't permit, I still make a gallant effort to snare the ones with some degree of pizzazz for future resale.