I was SHOUTED DOWN today.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Today I traveled to a Republican Party committee meeting. It was the Platform Committee for my county. The county's recommendations then go to the State Party Platform Committee to be considered into the State Platform. This Platform tells our elected representatives what is on our minds.

When the subject came around to taxes, the group think agreed to call for making the "Bush tax cuts" permanent. I objected. I waited for my turn to speak. Once I had the floor, with microphone in hand... I started to talk about Austrian monetary science. I told them about how the Federal gov. spent more last month than they did for all of 2007, and next month will be even worse! "How are you going to pay for it all?" No answer. "How are you going to pay for it all?", I asked again. I then started to talk about taxes must be increased and spending radically decreased to balance our nation's books when about 30 members shouted me down. They were so vehemently against any notion of raising taxes to pay down our national debts as to become very rude. I reminded them I had the floor and it was my turn to speak. The Chairman, a good man really, cut me off and said we could table this for the next meeting.

I was disillusioned by the experience. I sat there for the rest of the meeting shaking my head. These people are part of the problem, not the solution.

Democrats want to tax and spend. But, they never tax enough to pay for all their spending, so the debt grows. Republicans want to cut taxes and reduce spending. But, they never reduce spending enough to counter balance the cut in taxes, so the debt grows. Either way, the national debt continues to grow out of control.

I should really thank these useful fools for ruining our monetary policy and debasing the dollar, thus making me a wealthy man when the dollar finally drops to zero. Instead, my heart is heavy, for I grieve for my beloved country and it's future. "They have ears to hear, but will not listen."

To everyone who I irritated by imploring them to get involved in politics, I offer an apology.

[fb101]

The fools are on both sides, those that think we can cut spending only and work it out, and those who think we can tax only and work it out.
Bummer you went through that though.

[VWBEAMER]

What scares me is you think raising taxes will increase revenue.

[bWe have people trying to make decisions for the rest of us, that do NOT have a basic understanding of economics.
[/b]

Here is a 10 minute education .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

When taxes rates are lowered, revenue increases, it's a fact!!!

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/nov/09/mike-pence/mike-pence-says-raising-taxes-lowers-tax-revenues/


Thankfully, it seemed that their was 30 right minded people there, so I feel better about that.

[inflationhawk]

When taxes rates are lowered, revenue increases, it's a fact!!!

Then why aren't taxes zero or 1%? Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns where reduced taxes do not increase revenues. I am neither for raising taxes nor lowering taxes, I am for optimizing taxes whichever way that means. The problem is no one knows what that optimal point is.

[VWBEAMER]

Click the first link. It explains it.

BTW, we do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem, and a job problem.

Did you know that if we had full employment, it would erase the deficit? Yes, Because of the extra people that are getting unemployment will be paying taxes.

Unemployment payments are getting to the point where they are greater than social security payments.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/17/news/economy/unemployment_benefits_cost/index.htm

$319 Billion in unemployment payments. Now if we had all those people paying in, instead of taking out, we would be back even.

Stop spending money on stupid stuff, and we could start chipping away at the national Debt.


Raising taxes is not going to help unemployment.

That is what has to happen, we need everyone to be employed.

What needs to happen is to get get Government tout of the economy and let the free market work and cut spending.

That is the only answer. Raising taxes will create more unemployment, and increase the deficit, it is the absolute worst thing we could do now.

[Kurr]

We went hundreds of years with no income taxes. The whole purpose of the income tax is to pay off "the national debt", which by the way, is the money supply of the country since the inception of the Federal Reserve.

We can have no Payments, or "employment" because WE (the States United) have NO MONEY. We have paper debt obligations to the Reserve. WE HAVE BEEN BROKE FOR OVER 100 YEARS.

How can you pay a tax, or pay an empoyee or any debt if you have NO MONEY? The answer is simply, you cannot. What we do is dishcharge that debt to another.

The fact is that EVERY dollar, credit, every penny in existance is owed to the Federal Reserve which happens to hold 2/3 MORE of the National Debt than China!!

With acruing interest on the debt if you siezed 100% of the money/credit in the country, and 100% of the Physical assets, there would still be debt owed.

It is mathematicly IMPOSSIBLE to pay of the debt, and until people realize the fiscal situation we are in and ABOLISH the Federal Reserve with it's "debt obligation" there can be no progress.

Until that one goal is reached the system is doing no more than re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Shiek, I feel for you. It is disheartening. Do not give up. Just keep learning and talking.

[inflationhawk]

Click the first link. It explains it.

The Laffer curve is exactly the point. "If both a 0% rate and 100% rate of taxation generate no revenue, it follows that there must exist at least one rate in between where tax revenue would be a maximum"

Where that rate is, is the question. To unilaterally say raising taxes increases revenue or lowering taxes increases revenue without considering where you are on the curve is shortsighted. If you are on the upslope of the curve and you raise taxes, you may gain revenue, but if you are on the downslope raising taxes will reduce revenue. If someone can just tell me where we are on the Laffer curve all our problems would be solved!!! Alas, that is the nature of the beast, you never know because there is an entire economy out there with lots of moving parts.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

What scares me is you think raising taxes will increase revenue.

[bWe have people trying to make decisions for the rest of us, that do NOT have a basic understanding of economics.
[/b]

Here is a 10 minute education .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

When taxes rates are lowered, revenue increases, it's a fact!!!
I call bull[excrement]. That song was sung repeatedly by the Repubs to get the "Bush tax cuts". Interest rates were greatly lowered to get everyone to work. Unemployment was down. It is a complete fantasy to think you will ever get 100% employment out of lazy Americans. After 8 yrs. of your economic theory... we were in debt far greater than ever before. (That discounts WW2 when people across the world were trying to kill us.)
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/nov/09/mike-pence/mike-pence-says-raising-taxes-lowers-tax-revenues/


Thankfully, it seemed that their was 30 right minded people there, so I feel better about that.

You know, I would have gladly listened to what you had to say if you had not chimed in that last little bit of horsecrap. Roberts Rules of Order were in place. It was completely out of line for those people to do that. They could have waited their turn and I would have listened to them as well.

VWBEAMER, you may have more knowledge of economics than me... but like the old cowboys used to say, you've got less class than a $20 whore.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

We went hundreds of years with no income taxes. The whole purpose of the income tax is to pay off "the national debt", which by the way, is the money supply of the country since the inception of the Federal Reserve.

We can have no Payments, or "employment" because WE (the States United) have NO MONEY. We have paper debt obligations to the Reserve. WE HAVE BEEN BROKE FOR OVER 100 YEARS.

How can you pay a tax, or pay an empoyee or any debt if you have NO MONEY? The answer is simply, you cannot. What we do is dishcharge that debt to another.

The fact is that EVERY dollar, credit, every penny in existance is owed to the Federal Reserve which happens to hold 2/3 MORE of the National Debt than China!!

With acruing interest on the debt if you siezed 100% of the money/credit in the country, and 100% of the Physical assets, there would still be debt owed.

It is mathematicly IMPOSSIBLE to pay of the debt, and until people realize the fiscal situation we are in and ABOLISH the Federal Reserve with it's "debt obligation" there can be no progress.

Until that one goal is reached the system is doing no more than re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Shiek, I feel for you. It is disheartening. Do not give up. Just keep learning and talking.

Thanks Kurr. Much of what you just wrote I have heard many times before. Trust me, it was ringing in my ears yesterday. I realized I would be far better off to bet against the dollar than try to save it.

[Copper Catcher]

Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay I am sorry you were shouted down...

But lets look at the facts....47% of the people don't pay ANY federal income tax!

The top 10 percent of earners -- households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 -- paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-ha ... l?x=0&.v=1

Folks keep saying raise the taxes on the rich....My question is how much more do you think the "rich" can or should pay? 80%? 90%?

In my opinion no one in Congress neither Democrat nor Republican is willing to cut spending or even think about touching social security and Medicare until the dollar collapses and we are forced into dealing with the mess that has been made by both parties.

[blackrabbit]

How about seizing the assets of the criminal banksters who have stolen the wealth of the nation? I think Hank Paulson, Tim Geithner, and lots of other obscenely rich criminals should not be able to keep their stolen loot.

Good job Sheik for trying to bring some up some discussion that goes against the party line.

Lets be nice to each other here on realcent. Its a nice place with honorable folks and we should be able to discuss the political economy without shouting people down or insulting each other. We all know the world's a mess. We non-oligarchs fighting about it will just make it worse.

VWbeamer,A theoretical model is just a model, not a fact. Taxes are non-existent for Bank of America and other criminal organizations. They actual are subsidized by the taxpayer massively. So somehow I think lowering taxes on massive transnational corporations will do nothing for us.

[blackrabbit]

In my opinion everyone who has been taxed and paid for their social security should actually get it and not have it stolen from them. The government has stolen most of the funds already though and used them for other crap. Also don't blame my grandmother on medicare for the collapse of the dollar. That is just ridiculous. All the old folks could be euthanized and the dollar would still collapse. None of the more than 10 trillion given to the banksters went to my grandma.

[VWBEAMER]

There is not a country with high taxes that has a high standard of living.

and Corporations do not pay income tax period.

Anybody that thinks they do is overlooking that they simply pass the cost of the tax along to the consumer in the form of a higher price.

We are not going to tax and spend our way out of this mess.

Look at History, we cmae out the great depression because of WWII, and it was not because of Government spending, it was because of full employment.

[VWBEAMER]

I apologize if I offended you, but you have to realize we need full employment, not more taxes. I strongly disagree with you, but I over reacted to your post, and again apologize to you and the forum.

You can say what you want about Bushes 8 years, I think he spent way too much also. The tax cuts increased revenue, it's a matter of record.
We just spent tooo much money. Bushes spending does not compare to what Obama spends.The national budget deficit for the month of Feb 2011 was larger than the deficit for the entire year of 2007.

Taxes is not going to help us. You could confiscate the entire wealth of top 5% of earners and it would not close that deficit


I agree, once the economy returns, there may be a need for a small tax increase, like mention above, we need to find out what the optimum tax rate is for revenue.

What scares me is you think raising taxes will increase revenue.

[bWe have people trying to make decisions for the rest of us, that do NOT have a basic understanding of economics.
[/b]

Here is a 10 minute education .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

When taxes rates are lowered, revenue increases, it's a fact!!!
I call bull[excrement]. That song was sung repeatedly by the Repubs to get the "Bush tax cuts". Interest rates were greatly lowered to get everyone to work. Unemployment was down. It is a complete fantasy to think you will ever get 100% employment out of lazy Americans. After 8 yrs. of your economic theory... we were in debt far greater than ever before. (That discounts WW2 when people across the world were trying to kill us.)
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/nov/09/mike-pence/mike-pence-says-raising-taxes-lowers-tax-revenues/


Thankfully, it seemed that their was 30 right minded people there, so I feel better about that.

You know, I would have gladly listened to what you had to say if you had not chimed in that last little bit of horsecrap. Roberts Rules of Order were in place. It was completely out of line for those people to do that. They could have waited their turn and I would have listened to them as well.

VWBEAMER, you may have more knowledge of economics than me... but like the old cowboys used to say, you've got less class than a $20 whore.

[VWBEAMER]

And at least we all agree we can not continue spending more than we make.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay I am sorry you were shouted down...

But lets look at the facts....47% of the people don't pay ANY federal income tax!

The top 10 percent of earners -- households making an average of $366,400 in 2006 -- paid about 73 percent of the income taxes collected by the federal government.

Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-ha ... l?x=0&.v=1

Folks keep saying raise the taxes on the rich....My question is how much more do you think the "rich" can or should pay? 80%? 90%?

In my opinion no one in Congress neither Democrat nor Republican is willing to cut spending or even think about touching social security and Medicare until the dollar collapses and we are forced into dealing with the mess that has been made by both parties.

Who said I wanted to raise taxes on just the rich??? What I tried to say is we need to raise taxes and radically reduce spending.

As much as I hate to give Clinton credit for anything, our financial house was in better order then than now. Clinton and the Demo congress raised taxes. Americans hated that and put in the Repubs into the Speaker's seat. Gingrich would not give Clinton any more money than he had to and Clinton vetoed as many of Gingrich's pet projects as he could. The end result was we had greater tax revenue and very little wild ass spending. The debts went down. The graphs are out there if you want to look them up.

I want to "share the joy" of paying taxes on as many people as possible. All these Americans enjoy our infrastructure that helps provide for the good life we all have, so why can't they help pay for it?

I want to kick as many fat, lazy, poor-lifestyle-choice zombies off the public dole as possible. Let those moochers create work for themselves. I did, and I am a hell of a lot be$$er off for it! I have tried to teach Americans my trade... [shucks]. I could start a whole new thread on that one.

I am in agreement with you and Kurr and Dr. Ron Paul... once the dollar collapses, we will wipe the slate clean and start all over again. The only thing to do now is to position ourselves to benefit from it.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I apologize if I offended you, but you have to realize we need full employment, not more taxes. I strongly disagree with you, but I over reacted to your post, and again apologize to you and the forum.

You can say what you want about Bushes 8 years, I think he spent way too much also. The tax cuts increased revenue, it's a matter of record.
We just spent tooo much money. Bushes spending does not compare to what Obama spends.The national budget deficit for the month of Feb 2011 was larger than the deficit for the entire year of 2007.

Taxes is not going to help us. You could confiscate the entire wealth of top 5% of earners and it would not close that deficit


I agree, once the economy returns, there may be a need for a small tax increase, like mention above, we need to find out what the optimum tax rate is for revenue.

]

We are cool BEAMER! I apologize for overreacting to your overreaction.

[blackrabbit]

[quote="

Taxes is not going to help us. You could confiscate the entire wealth of top 5% of earners and it would not close that deficit"


The top 1 % owns more than the bottom 90% so how is taking anything away from us going to do anything? Hmmmmm.

[blackrabbit]

There is not a country with high taxes that has a high standard of living.

Um, most of western Europe?

[VWBEAMER]

http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/

Switzerland has the lowest tax rate and the highest standard of living, the USA is number two. Switzerland also has a low national debt.

There is not a country with high taxes that has a high standard of living.

Um, most of western Europe?

[Lemon Thrower]

right now, we spend more than 3x our revenues. that means, two-thirds of our spending is accomplished without taxes. well, why not cut spending by a third and eliminate all taxes.

[Thogey]

Ha! Yes!

Irrefutable logic. I love it!

[VWBEAMER]

Thread winner!!

right now, we spend more than 3x our revenues. that means, two-thirds of our spending is accomplished without taxes. well, why not cut spending by a third and eliminate all taxes.

[theo]

I'm also sorry you were shouted down. Although I might not agree on raising taxes, I believe its important to listen calmly to all ideas. You could have remarked that their unwillingness to listen made them sound like Liberal Progressives.

Raising taxes will not necessarily increase tax revenue just like a company will not necessarily increase its sales revenue by increasing its product prices. My feeling is that tax revenue is driven as much by GDP as it is by tax rates. When Reagan cut taxes on the wealthy, the economy began to grow rapidly and tax revenue nearly doubled by the time he left office. The problem, of course, was that spending nearly tripled.

I believe that cutting spending and keeping taxes low will create something a virtuous cycle. A fair tax system, with less regulation, would support the creation of wealth and prosperity. This would create more job opportunities and lessen the need for Government social spending, making spending cuts more paletable. A dramatic decrease in spending would force people off welfare and back into the workforce where they would contribute to tax revenue.

I've always felt that one reason that the Clinton Adminstration ran a budget surplus in the late 90s was welfare reform, which forced people off the welfare rolls back on to the tax rolls.

[Redneck]

Kurr wrote:

With acruing interest on the debt if you siezed 100% of the money/credit in the country, and 100% of the Physical assets, there would still be debt owed.

It is mathematicly IMPOSSIBLE to pay of the debt, and until people realize the fiscal situation we are in and ABOLISH the Federal Reserve with it's "debt obligation" there can be no progress.

Until that one goal is reached the system is doing no more than re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

BINGO...

Doing anything other than the above mentioned is just putting lipstick on a pig.



Again, the goal is to End the Fed...

Unfortunately , most (even here) are still caught up in the "Left vs. Right" ideology (tax) arguments which tend (by design) to deflect the blame from the root cause of the problem.

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