Are copper markets manipulated like silver?

[John_doe]

I was just wondering what everyone thought about this subject. I have a few ideas but they are based on original silver/copper prices vs. One ounce of gold. The classic face value of the double eagle runs at $20 vs. The Morgan dollars $1 face value. Gold markets have gold at 1431.00 usd today. 1431/20= $71.55 an ounce of silver. When you take into consideration that there are 7 ounces of gold to every one ounce of silver (71.55x7=500.85). this makes the arguement for 500 dollar silver seem pretty realistic. Not even considering inflation, demand, or rate of consumption. I kind of did the same thing with copper and came up with some pretty shocking results. When calculated against classic united states gold standard face values, the penny really starts to look pretty. About .70 cents, and again this is not factoring in several huge catylists. I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems there are some fishy things going on with the copper too.


Anyone have any fuel to throw in to the arguement?

[ramy98]

IMHO; everything is manipulated; even the stock markets...

[inflationhawk]

Copper is too plentiful to be manipulated in the markets. Silver has a rarity factor which makes it easier to manipulate.

[John_doe]

Copper is too plentiful to be manipulated in the markets. Silver has a rarity factor which makes it easier to manipulate.

I'll have to find the source, but I read an article that said the world was short 800,000 metric ton. Not to mention china going after huge stockpiles. And the consumption rates far exceed mine production. So rarity might not be too far from reality.

[copper cane]

Found it interesting at Sunday's coin show how plentiful copper rounds were. Last year "1" dealer was selling them. Yesterday about 6-8 dealers were selling them. Acting dumb (which is real easy for me) I asked, "What's with the copper rounds?" Kept getting the same answer--lots of people thinks silver is now past their price range. I found it very interesting that there was that much change since last Sept. show when everyone thought the 1 dealer with copper rounds was kinda strange! How quickly time are-a-changing. See how smart you all are--you aren't strange you were just "ahead of the times"! That's why I believe everything you post (well almost everything)!

[Tommybee]

I also saw much more copper at last weekend's show. I saw 1 kilo bars and 1 oz rounds. The mark up, however, is ridiculous. It was $4 oz for the rounds. Anybody serious about copper knows they can buy pre-82's for 1.5x face or face if they want to go throught the trouble of sorting them. Plus, the US goverment guarantees pre-1982 cents are 95% copper. Some of the kilo bars looked a little weird....

I saw a lot of guys who really push coins with numismatic premiums selling copper at that show. These are the same guys who have steadfastly refused to sell silver bullion over the past two years. I thought that was odd

I don't understand why anyone is paying high numismatic premiums in this economy/market. Why spend $800 on a CC Morgan that has about 3/4 oz of silver when you can buy 20 oz of bullion or junk for that $800. Some dealer was telling me that people are "panicking" and buying his high numismatic premium coins. (he was trying to unload an 1850's Seated Liberty Dollar..that was raw and obviously cleaned) I was tempted to ask him why someone who was panicked about the dollar wouldn't want more silver for their buck, but I didn't want to start a fight.

[shinnosuke]

I must look really poor because when I go to shows or shops the guys behind the counter just eye me suspiciously. Even when I ask for 90% and fork over a pile of FRNs, they never try to upsell me to numismatics.

[Tommybee]

Shinnosuke - Maybe you don't look like a sucker and I do.....

[inflationhawk]

Copper is too plentiful to be manipulated in the markets. Silver has a rarity factor which makes it easier to manipulate.

I'll have to find the source, but I read an article that said the world was short 800,000 metric ton. Not to mention china going after huge stockpiles. And the consumption rates far exceed mine production. So rarity might not be too far from reality.

Maybe plentiful was the wrong choice of words. There is a much larger market for copper than silver with many more market participants, which makes market manipulation more difficult. Because silver is more thinly traded with not as many market participants, a single player stands more of a chance to manipulate.

[shinnosuke]

Tommybee - hahaha

Maybe, but I usually dress down for events like that. I think it comes from having spent so much time working in Mexico. I didn't want to be a target.

[Tommybee]

I "dress down" all the time, dude! At the last show I saw two guys very sharply dressed, with a lot of jewelry, carrying a briefcase around. I thought to myself .."why don't you just wear a sign that says "rob me". However, there was a gun show next door so maybe they weren't too worried about it.