Canadian copper

[frugi]

What is the point of going to all the trouble of melting it into something else, (a glob of unknown metal)?

Nobody melts pre1965 US 90% silver coins. Nobody melts war nickels. Nobody is melting Morgan dollars.......why?

because it is "made" by a well known, respected, mint. In either case the US mint or Canada Mint. All coins made by these mints are 100% perfectly assayed and known to be upon research in any and all available public records. You want to know when five cent pieces were made of .999 Ni, you can look it up. BANG! that is it, you have a stated value.
But, melting into a glob of metal, and then attempting to assay it by a third party, c'mon. pure junk, or only fit for eBay. melting coins into bars or rounds is pure dumbasxness.

With all that said............Remember when Ni went to $28.00/lb back a few summers ago. Between myself and one other guy, we drove all over the Midwest US, buying all the Canadian nickels we could buy. It broke down to "my idea", "my friends $$". We paid equal exchange of US face for Canadian nickels and cents. At the time the US dollar was at least 5% stronger than the Candian dollar, but I can't remember. Either way, all those guys laughed at me for saying I "collected Canadian".

Long story short.........We found about 8000 lbs, scrapped 3 tons locally. I made 20% of the profit, my investor friend got the rest, and all of our travel expenses were paid. We had a little trouble convincing scrap yards to take them, and almost thought I was going to be able to sell them. But, I found a dealer, who dealt soley with .999 Ni, and was related to steel refining and whatever. I had to give them a sample(10lbs.) free to test, (they didn't believe me that it was .999 Ni), until they did they're tests, and contacted me a few days later, that was that long story short.

[barrytrot]

What is the point of going to all the trouble of melting it into something else, (a glob of unknown metal)?

Simple: because they are worth more in COPPER form. A LOT more.

The value of copper is $4.30 cents per pound.

The value of Canadian copper cents (based on the last realized auction price) is $2.65 per pound.

So people want to melt them for an immediate 62% profit.

And the market for copper is VAST in comparison to the market for copper cents. It is simple to sell tons of copper tomorrow, versus Canadian cents which are not so easy to sell.

[highroller4321]

What is the point of going to all the trouble of melting it into something else, (a glob of unknown metal)?

Nobody melts pre1965 US 90% silver coins. Nobody melts war nickels. Nobody is melting Morgan dollars.......why?

because it is "made" by a well known, respected, mint. In either case the US mint or Canada Mint. All coins made by these mints are 100% perfectly assayed and known to be upon research in any and all available public records. You want to know when five cent pieces were made of .999 Ni, you can look it up. BANG! that is it, you have a stated value.
But, melting into a glob of metal, and then attempting to assay it by a third party, c'mon. pure junk, or only fit for eBay. melting coins into bars or rounds is pure dumbasxness.

With all that said............Remember when Ni went to $28.00/lb back a few summers ago. Between myself and one other guy, we drove all over the Midwest US, buying all the Canadian nickels we could buy. It broke down to "my idea", "my friends $$". We paid equal exchange of US face for Canadian nickels and cents. At the time the US dollar was at least 5% stronger than the Candian dollar, but I can't remember. Either way, all those guys laughed at me for saying I "collected Canadian".

Long story short.........We found about 8000 lbs, scrapped 3 tons locally. I made 20% of the profit, my investor friend got the rest, and all of our travel expenses were paid. We had a little trouble convincing scrap yards to take them, and almost thought I was going to be able to sell them. But, I found a dealer, who dealt soley with .999 Ni, and was related to steel refining and whatever. I had to give them a sample(10lbs.) free to test, (they didn't believe me that it was .999 Ni), until they did they're tests, and contacted me a few days later, that was that long story short.

Not true at all! 90% and war nicks get melted everyday in LARGE quantitites. I am sure some Morgans gets melted as well, but I doubt very many.

[GulchGuy]

What I want to know is, once melted how can 98% copper be refined into .999? I read somewhere that you can boil the copper and the zinc will burn off, but I can't confirm it.

Its too bad all of those Canadian cents are in Portland, shipping would be a killer. Unless it can be refined, melting would be a waste of time.

All the best...Bob.

I don't know what procedure is required to convert 98% cu pennies into .999....but it seems it would be a little easier and a little less expensive process than converting 95% cu pennies into .999.

To get copper back to .999 you are looking at an electrorefining operation. Not all that expensive, but it is 'dirty' (strong acids), and slow. Back of envelope suggests it can be done for $1.50/pound refined at current prices for everything. So, not quite worth it...yet. Ed

[barrytrot]

What I want to know is, once melted how can 98% copper be refined into .999? I read somewhere that you can boil the copper and the zinc will burn off, but I can't confirm it.

Its too bad all of those Canadian cents are in Portland, shipping would be a killer. Unless it can be refined, melting would be a waste of time.

All the best...Bob.

I don't know what procedure is required to convert 98% cu pennies into .999....but it seems it would be a little easier and a little less expensive process than converting 95% cu pennies into .999.

To get copper back to .999 you are looking at an electrorefining operation. Not all that expensive, but it is 'dirty' (strong acids), and slow. Back of envelope suggests it can be done for $1.50/pound refined at current prices for everything. So, not quite worth it...yet. Ed

I'm sure that the cost done at a large scale would be substantially less than that. Jackson Metals wouldn't have made so much money if it cost that much per pound.

[AGgressive Metal]

No offense Barrytrot but you're not a lawyer and I think you are way off base. A coin isn't property of the Canadian government if its owned by a US citizen in the US. Extradition means you can be sent back if you break a law in Canada and then run to the US, it doesn't mean that Canadian law applies to US citizens inside the US. If that were true most of the people on this forum would be extradited for breaking Canadian gun laws daily, lol. It is not against the law to melt foreign coins - refiners melt foreign silver every day.

[barrytrot]

No offense Barrytrot but you're not a lawyer and I think you are way off base. A coin isn't property of the Canadian government if its owned by a US citizen in the US. Extradition means you can be sent back if you break a law in Canada and then run to the US, it doesn't mean that Canadian law applies to US citizens inside the US. If that were true most of the people on this forum would be extradited for breaking Canadian gun laws daily, lol. It is not against the law to melt foreign coins - refiners melt foreign silver every day.

None taken. I will stand corrected.

[frugi]

Not true at all! 90% and war nicks get melted everyday in LARGE quantitites.

Whoever is doing that is certainly breaking the law, it doesn't matter what the "nickel" is made of, it is still covered under the 1 & 5 cent US coin melt ban.


Agreed, they may be being melted, but melting coins is only a benefit for the end user in the deal. So, unless you are the refiner, processing and stamping out, warranted, assayed, superb quality bullion, you are wasting your time. The reason Canadian coins (1&5 cent coins aren't hot is because half the world doesn't know, and 1/3 of the others don't care. The point is, for me.....,for me, if I want to hold an investment, whatever it is, I never want to be in an arguement, or disagreement about the metal content. A US 1 cent(pre82) is 95% Cu, A US 5 cent is Cupro-nickel, A pre82 Canada 5 cent coin is .999 Ni.
From an expert on Ni melting...........You look at a pile of raw, weapons grade .9999 Ni, and a pile of .999 Ni nickels from Canada, I would take the sure thing as most would especially if it meant a trade for food or medicine or gold or silver.

[frugalcanuck]

I thought there were exceptions to the melt ban for the war nickels

[barrytrot]

Not true at all! 90% and war nicks get melted everyday in LARGE quantitites.

Whoever is doing that is certainly breaking the law, it doesn't matter what the "nickel" is made of, it is still covered under the 1 & 5 cent US coin melt ban.


Agreed, they may be being melted, but melting coins is only a benefit for the end user in the deal. So, unless you are the refiner, processing and stamping out, warranted, assayed, superb quality bullion, you are wasting your time. The reason Canadian coins (1&5 cent coins aren't hot is because half the world doesn't know, and 1/3 of the others don't care. The point is, for me.....,for me, if I want to hold an investment, whatever it is, I never want to be in an arguement, or disagreement about the metal content. A US 1 cent(pre82) is 95% Cu, A US 5 cent is Cupro-nickel, A pre82 Canada 5 cent coin is .999 Ni.
From an expert on Ni melting...........You look at a pile of raw, weapons grade .9999 Ni, and a pile of .999 Ni nickels from Canada, I would take the sure thing as most would especially if it meant a trade for food or medicine or gold or silver.

War Nickels can be melted:

(d) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins inscribed with the years 1942, 1943, 1944, or 1945 that are composed of an alloy comprising copper, silver and manganese.

[frugi]

War Nickels can be melted:

(d) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins inscribed with the years 1942, 1943, 1944, or 1945 that are composed of an alloy comprising copper, silver and manganese.

I learn something new everyday.
Either way, I still think it is a bad idea to melt verifiable coins into non-verifiable globs of metal.

[barrytrot]

War Nickels can be melted:

(d) The prohibition contained in § 82.1 against the exportation, melting, or treatment of 5-cent coins shall not apply to 5-cent coins inscribed with the years 1942, 1943, 1944, or 1945 that are composed of an alloy comprising copper, silver and manganese.

I learn something new everyday.
Either way, I still think it is a bad idea to melt verifiable coins into non-verifiable globs of metal.

Apparently you haven't seen the thriving market for generic silver both here, other sites, and on eBay.

From my experience as a buyer, seller, and observer anything with the words ".999" and "troy ounce" on it go over spot every time.

[frugi]

I won't participate in auctions of shiit, like .999 Lead, or .999 copper, please, a waste of my time. I (in the last year) am removing myself from this internet and all associated with it. I am down to bare minimum at this point, and I rarely come online at all, Mostly for here, coinflation, nia, and a few others, including kitco, and such. All this internet is a waste of time, unhealthy, tracked by the gov't, taxable, f*ck this shiit. The people who will survive in the coming future will be those who do not rely on eBay to sell. While I used to sell $20,000.00/year on eBay, I won't anymore, and stuff is getting effed up every day. I need to make connection in the real world without relying on the internet to produce income. I am a realist! I would rather make less money in the real world, in face to face transactions, than making more selling on eBay, sitting on my ass. Time will come when folk are lined up around the block at the scrap yard with buckets of "art bars" of copper, etc. getting pennies on the doolar to what they paid on eBay. If you have the facility to produce bars and it is your income, I wish you God speed, but if you are melting anything into rounds/bars to sell on eBay, you are retarded. This is not directed at you or any member, because we are ALL the smartest folks in the USA, Canada, world, etc.

[frugi]

the way I see it really quick, I have the facilities to produce art bars, rounds, and coins. I do. So, what now? I have produced 100% fake bars of completely worthless melted mixed metals, (similar to waht occurs in China) I do this for my own knowledge,. I am a metal nut. I will make some stuff, age it, patinate it etc, Never have I profited or sold, or shown to anyone what I have done. The way I see it, If I (my dumb ass) can do the amazing professional of faking silver, gold, copper, it can be done by anyone. There is LESS value in ANY metal that is not immediately verifyable, that is my stance. I have got to go, so I will get back on tonight. Peace .

[pennypicker]

Frugi, I agree with all that you say. Here in the Los Angeles area counterfeit gold jewelry of all kinds is flooding the area and its coming across the border from Mexico. Rings, chains, you name it--all with bogus 14k, 18k, 22k, stamped in them. We live in a "counterfeit" world so to speak and its coming from everywhere. Even counterfeit PSA sportscard holders and PCGS coin holders are coming out of China. I'm beginning to get the feeling that nothing is real anymore.

All those silver & copper art rounds and bars being sold on ebay--what percentage of those are bad. This is why I feel Lincoln & Canadian copper pennies are the best way to invest in copper for the long term. As the value of copper goes up so will the pecentage of bad bars and rounds being produced.

If Frugi can make bogus bars then it is safe to say that hundreds or perhaps thousands of other people from around the world are doing it also. That's why I'm sticking only with Lincoln & Canadian cu pennies--I simply can't trust anything else!

[frugi]

totally. I forgot to mention, I know jewelry up, down, backwards, eyes closed. I have all the tools to stamp jewelry to say 14k, Tiffany & Co., Cartier, you name it. The reason I don't is simple....it is wrong, I am a Christian, it would be deceitful, and bad karma, I try to treat others as though I would want to be treated. Stealing is wrong, plain and simple, that is what happens when you fake stuff, it is theft in my eyes. but yeah, fake gold chains, and fake sterling silver platters and such is a whole other topic altogether.

[VWBEAMER]

I agree, that a good reason not to melt the coins, let the end user melt them. If it becomes legal to melt the buyers will more than likely prefer them unmelted imho. The end user or middleman will be equipped to refine them, much like silver smelters today.

It' is a lot harder to counterfeit US coins and the penalty is stiffer than counterfeit jewelry, art rounds, etc. So leaving them in their present form will let the buyer know the purity.

[Number21]

I don't know what procedure is required to convert 98% cu pennies into .999....but it seems it would be a little easier and a little less expensive process than converting 95% cu pennies into .999.

It's quite simple really. After the metal hardens stamp ".999" into it rather than ".980" and sell it on ebay for twice the spot price.