Copper is better than silver!

[Corsair]

agree you won't ever have to melt them but you won't get more than 1.7 cents out of 3 cents until the melt ban is lifted.

Just a few years ago, a couple of members here were, pardon the pun, making a pretty penny selling their coppers at 2.25x.

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

am also very skeptical that they will ever sell for a premium to melt. rather, they'll sell at a discount. right now if you refine 90% you get 90% of 90%. I expect copper sold for melt to be at 80%.

Al contrar.. just a year ago or so copper pennies were selling at a premium over melt.

Yeah, it was pretty sweet getting 2.25x for copper cents a few years ago. Some forum members said "Don't sell.. wait for copper to go higher" But I believe in diversification.. so I converted a couple of tons into silver and gold.

[highroller4321]

This is assuming you could melt the copper to achieve those prices.
Also, storage would be an issue compared to silver and for me, personally, I don't want to a. pay anyone to store my metals or b. hold my metals for me.

While I see your points, there are alot of things that have to come together.

You would be surprised how little room 5 tons takes up. Store a little in the garage, basement, and a closet and you would have more than enough room.

[highroller4321]

I agree with this thesis and I am hoarding as much copper as I can sort. I don't want to pay over face value when I can get it for face with a little work. But I also think your entire thesis hinges on the melt ban being lifted. I agree it will be lifted eventually, but when??? The silver ban was lifted 5 years after the change in metal content, but it's already been 28 years since the penny changed from being 95% copper, albeit the penny melt ban was only put in place in 2007. I guess the first step has to be to abolish the use of the penny altogether.

If you study the prior melt bans, the report the Candain senate put out in Jan, the HR6162 bill being passed, the publication from the mint asking vendors for input on the composition changes, and several other factors you will know time is on our side! My opinion is less than 3 years!

[highroller4321]

in 2009 I was buying silver waiting for it to go up, and then stopped because it never did. Sure wish i had bought a lot more. I'm not sure where we are with pennies, we got two years, 4 years, 10 years?

One thing for sure, I'm 100% positve they will go up in value. Even if the melt ban is NEVER lifted.

Once all the copper pennies are gone from circulation the price will skyrocket.

How much is a wheat penny worth? How many people buy them to melt them?

wheat cents are worth 4-6 cents based on the years. They don't get melted because the value is worth more than the melt value!

[highroller4321]

Highroller, i'm not following yoru logic. last time i looked you charged 1.6 cents for copper cents. to make it simple, i'll say 1.5 and ignore the storage costs. copper is at almost $3. when they lift the melt ban, theoretically, you could capture the difference. so at best you can double your money if you ignore the discount of the smelter, storage costs, shipping costs, etc. and you have to hope for the law to change.

silver has gone up 5X in the last 2.5 years. I think it has 3-6X left. Copper might double from here maybe. Who knows when the govt will change their mind.

Yes, silver has been going fantastic over the last 5 years but silver will still need a 52% rise with copper having a 0% rise for the value to be equal at 1.5 cents.

[highroller4321]

agree you won't ever have to melt them but you won't get more than 1.7 cents out of 3 cents until the melt ban is lifted.

am also very skeptical that they will ever sell for a premium to melt. rather, they'll sell at a discount. right now if you refine 90% you get 90% of 90%. I expect copper sold for melt to be at 80%.

Looking closer to the 90% range rather than the 80% range.

[Lemon Thrower]

sorry, i am not following your numbers.

market right now is what, 1.7 times face?

melt is 2.88.

so if you sell at 1.7 you get 60% of melt. if you have to pay shipping your percentage is lower.

[tinhorn]

sorry, i am not following your numbers.

market right now is what, 1.7 times face?

melt is 2.88.

so if you sell at 1.7 you get 60% of melt. if you have to pay shipping your percentage is lower.

That's how I see it. Market might be 2.88 (or $4.23/lb.), but lotsa guys are discounting to keep the cash churning.

If you get a percentage of 25% coppers, and sell them at 1.7, your gross profit is 17.5% on your investment in that box or boxes of pennies. Nice return compared to a savings account, but not as nice as the 47% profit if they were sold at their real value.

Some people think that selling for true value is somehow underhanded--I've had my chops busted on this very site for that reason. Wish there were more folks with that attitude toward junk silver dimes.

[highroller4321]

sorry, i am not following your numbers.

market right now is what, 1.7 times face?

melt is 2.88.

so if you sell at 1.7 you get 60% of melt. if you have to pay shipping your percentage is lower.

Thats because I am talking about long term and you are talking about short term...

If you buy and sell silver same day or next day you most likely aren't going to make a "ton" either.


I am talking about having a starting point of yesterday and investing $15k into copper, in the form of copper pennies, that LONG TERM copper is the better play, in my opinion.

[highroller4321]

sorry, i am not following your numbers.

market right now is what, 1.7 times face?

melt is 2.88.

so if you sell at 1.7 you get 60% of melt. if you have to pay shipping your percentage is lower.

Also if you are looking at just buying and not the price realized when melting the % is going to be more like 95% or so.... just like 90% silver typically is.

[TXBullion]

I was thinking in these terms.
Copper pennies melt 2.88 each
150 per pound. Theoretical melt value of 4.32
If you have a sufficient amount, you might get 90% for metal not bullion.
4.32 at 90% 3.89 per pound before shipping them

3.89/150 cents =2.59 cents per pound.

So is it worth it to buy large amounts of copper at 1.6 today. Id say so. This also doesnt take into the positive outlook on the price of copper. Once the melt ban is off, who cares if it trades as bullion or not at what price. There is always intrinsic value.




This does not take into account a price increase of copper. It takes the assumption that you have enough to get those high payout prices.

[pennypicker]

I am talking about having a starting point of yesterday and investing $15k into copper, in the form of copper pennies, that LONG TERM copper is the better play, in my opinion.

I agree that LONG TERM copper is the better play. But for the SHORT TERM, and especially the last two weeks, silver is the play if you want quick cash--and we all do.

[John_doe]

For the short term it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to spend their money on copper instead of silver. Copper has been flat for months while silver is going up almost daily. But many of us, including myself, are still buying copper nonetheless and yet I don't know why? Everyday I watch copper remain flat while silver makes large gains and I still buy copper...and I continue to ask myself why?

Quite simple. As an investment, copper is much less attractive than gold and silver, due to its comparative bulk. As investors seek to insulate themselves from a depreciating currency, it's natural to expect them to favor gold and silver. But as the currency depreciation begins to accelerate and more and more investors are looking to preserve their purchasing power, copper will start to garner more interest. As gold and silver become increasingly expensive and scarce, copper will become more attractive and accessible to the average investor. Patience, my friend.

took the words out of my mouth. Quantitative easing and inflation will make the copper cent extremely valueable over time.

[highroller4321]

For the short term it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to spend their money on copper instead of silver. Copper has been flat for months while silver is going up almost daily. But many of us, including myself, are still buying copper nonetheless and yet I don't know why? Everyday I watch copper remain flat while silver makes large gains and I still buy copper...and I continue to ask myself why?

Quite simple. As an investment, copper is much less attractive than gold and silver, due to its comparative bulk. As investors seek to insulate themselves from a depreciating currency, it's natural to expect them to favor gold and silver. But as the currency depreciation begins to accelerate and more and more investors are looking to preserve their purchasing power, copper will start to garner more interest. As gold and silver become increasingly expensive and scarce, copper will become more attractive and accessible to the average investor. Patience, my friend.

took the words out of my mouth. Quantitative easing and inflation will make the copper cent extremely valueable over time.

Attractiveness is in the eye of the beholder! 4-5 years ago I was being told I was crazy because I was investing in silver. Now that silver is having a very steep uptick everyone is saying how wonderfull silver is.

The same is going to hold true to copper cents.

[knibloe]

Yeah, it was pretty sweet getting 2.25x for copper cents a few years ago. Some forum members said "Don't sell.. wait for copper to go higher" But I believe in diversification.. so I converted a couple of tons into silver and gold. [/quote]

Thats it Hoard, rub it in!!

[knibloe]

I am talking about having a starting point of yesterday and investing $15k into copper, in the form of copper pennies, that LONG TERM copper is the better play, in my opinion.

I agree that LONG TERM copper is the better play. But for the SHORT TERM, and especially the last two weeks, silver is the play if you want quick cash--and we all do.

The last two weeks are in the past and as we all know past performance does not indicate future performance. Buying silver today is not as good of a play as silver because it is hard to get silver under spot. That means you have to wait for it to rise to break even.

Copper is still had at under spot and even under current market price. Therefore you can sort sell and make a profit without waiting for the price to rise. I just wish that I had time to sort. My Ryedale has only had two bags go through it all year.

[VWBEAMER]

The melt ban is not suppressing the price as much as the fact the copper penny is still widely available in circulation.
You got competition selling them at face value....the banks.

agree you won't ever have to melt them but you won't get more than 1.7 cents out of 3 cents until the melt ban is lifted.

am also very skeptical that they will ever sell for a premium to melt. rather, they'll sell at a discount. right now if you refine 90% you get 90% of 90%. I expect copper sold for melt to be at 80%.

[VWBEAMER]

That's my point, coins can sell for premium without melting.. if coppers get rare in circulation, the price will go up, weather it's legal to melt or not.

in 2009 I was buying silver waiting for it to go up, and then stopped because it never did. Sure wish i had bought a lot more. I'm not sure where we are with pennies, we got two years, 4 years, 10 years?

One thing for sure, I'm 100% positve they will go up in value. Even if the melt ban is NEVER lifted.

Once all the copper pennies are gone from circulation the price will skyrocket.

How much is a wheat penny worth? How many people buy them to melt them?

wheat cents are worth 4-6 cents based on the years. They don't get melted because the value is worth more than the melt value!

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

Must.. Sort.. More! I don't have enough copper or silver.

[Number21]

I would prefer to melt them for one simple reason: People on ebay pay more (usually much more than spot) for clean, shiny metal bars. Not so much with the dirty pennies coated in god knows what. If you weigh out 1 ton of pennies how much of that is actually dirt? Bars are quite a bit easier to count.

That being said I'm interested in metal(copper) casting myself, not paying someone else to do it. Who knows, I may be able to cast something useful or decorative out of penny copper in the future, and sell it for significantly more than the spot price....

[Lemon Thrower]

just curious - when were coppers selling at 2.25? i don't remember that.

[John_doe]

I'm not going to lie, I get some funny looks when I tell people I invest in pennies. Then I tell them I was buying silver at 5 and gold at 300 an ounce and they shut up pretty quick. it's one of those whose your daddy moments.

I think the copper cent is a great investment, and good things will come to those who are patient. Do I think you will make a boatload in the next year? No. Give it 20 years though, and you will look like a financial genius.

[John_doe]

Must.. Sort.. More! I don't have enough copper or silver.

You will let us know when you have enough right?

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

When asked "How much is enough?" The answer is always.. "just a little bit more"