Copper is better than silver!

[Lemon Thrower]

A. That was put in force by the mint, not Congress.

B. It does not mention that copper pennies will be illegal to melt until they stop making zinc pennies. All it states is that it illegal to melt pennies now. There is no correlation between zinc pennies being minted and copper pennies being melted.

Are you dense or just trying to be a troublemaker?

A. the mint can pass regulations that have the force of law, just like the SEC, IRS, CFTC, etc.

B. the first sentence says " To protect the coinage of the United States, . . . " So if we discontinue the penny there is no point to the melt ban on pennies.

[Lemon Thrower]

JOBIII - I offered to trade their silver for my copper. no takers yet - lol.

differences of opinion are what make markets - its great. I think copper could double, and if you buy at current market (1.6x) that a triple or quadruple. But i think silver could go up 5-10X, and even though you cant' buy at a discount like copper its still a bigger return long term.

[c140cessna]

The little guy can still get in at face and hoard the piss out of pennies....and that is why I love 'em.

In 1964 when silver way still all over the place in coins (no clad at that point in time).....the metal content was only worth 1.3X face.

Today the copper penny is nearly 3X face.

There should be way more motivation to hoard coppers today than there was to hoard 90% junk silver in 1964.

What is silver today 30X - 35X face???

Copper will have it's day in the sun....we just have to wait. And today the entire US population is asleep....thinking "why bother hoarding that crummy little copper penny" - it is the last thing on 99.9999999% of the populations mind.....we are so early to the party = it is crazy. It this we a baseball game - it is not even the first inning.....it is more like 2 months prior to spring training....

Waiting for our 35X day!!!!!

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

The little guy can still get in at face and hoard the piss out of pennies....and that is why I love 'em.

In 1964 when silver way still all over the place in coins (no clad at that point in time).....the metal content was only worth 1.3X face.

Today the copper penny is nearly 3X face.

There should be way more motivation to hoard coppers today than there was to hoard 90% junk silver in 1964.

What is silver today 30X - 35X face???

Copper will have it's day in the sun....we just have to wait. And today the entire US population is asleep....thinking "why bother hoarding that crummy little copper penny" - it is the last thing on 99.9999999% of the populations mind.....we are so early to the party = it is crazy. It this we a baseball game - it is not even the first inning.....it is more like 2 months prior to spring training....

Waiting for our 35X day!!!!!

... and the hype goes on.. and on.. and on

Edit: OH! Wait, Brothers and Sisters!! I have seen the light! 35x face!!! Glory Hallelujah!!! I am all in! It has only taken 47 years for silver to reach 30x face and I am excited about holding copper pennies another 47 years for copper to outpace silver!! Whoo Hoo!

Uhm, on second thought... I may not live that long.

[VWBEAMER]

A .No, words mean things, you said CONGRESS, never said the Mint didn't have power to pass regulation, BUT you do not understand the difference between the MINT and Congress....

B. There is no correlation in the law between the melt ban and minting of new pennies. The melt ban could be lifted at anytime and new pennies would continue to be minted...

and yes, I'm giving you a hardtime ..your making up your own facts based loosely on real facts.

If you let people start playing fast and loose with facts they can make any argument sound reasonable.

A. That was put in force by the mint, not Congress.

B. It does not mention that copper pennies will be illegal to melt until they stop making zinc pennies. All it states is that it illegal to melt pennies now. There is no correlation between zinc pennies being minted and copper pennies being melted.

Are you dense or just trying to be a troublemaker?

A. the mint can pass regulations that have the force of law, just like the SEC, IRS, CFTC, etc.

B. the first sentence says " To protect the coinage of the United States, . . . " So if we discontinue the penny there is no point to the melt ban on pennies.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

pssst.... BEAMER... You want to buy some copper penny bullion to melt? I will sell it to you for almost 3x face.

Go Team Copper!!

[VWBEAMER]

It's illegal to melt.... ...the Mint says so....

[ed_vantage17]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but I think the obvious needs to be stated here. Something is only "worth" what someone else is willing to pay for it. By that logic copper pennies are worth about 1.5X to 2.0X right now, and only if you've got a buyer. The fact that with a little effort one can get as many as they'd like at 1.0X face makes them a great short term investment. Get 'em, sort 'me, sell 'em, repeat as needed. Silver is a better vehicle for long term growth as far as I can tell. I'm no economist or commodities expert by any stretch of the imagination, but that's how I see it.

"...and that's all I have to say about that." -- Forrest Gump

[pennypicker]

It this we a baseball game - it is not even the first inning.....it is more like 2 months prior to spring training....

Someone please give me a heads up when we reach the 7th inning stretch because my eyes and fingers are killing me.

[Corsair]

The little guy can still get in at face and hoard the piss out of pennies....and that is why I love 'em.

In 1964 when silver way still all over the place in coins (no clad at that point in time).....the metal content was only worth 1.3X face.

Today the copper penny is nearly 3X face.

There should be way more motivation to hoard coppers today than there was to hoard 90% junk silver in 1964.

What is silver today 30X - 35X face???

Copper will have it's day in the sun....we just have to wait. And today the entire US population is asleep....thinking "why bother hoarding that crummy little copper penny" - it is the last thing on 99.9999999% of the populations mind.....we are so early to the party = it is crazy. It this we a baseball game - it is not even the first inning.....it is more like 2 months prior to spring training....

Waiting for our 35X day!!!!!

... and the hype goes on.. and on.. and on

Edit: OH! Wait, Brothers and Sisters!! I have seen the light! 35x face!!! Glory Hallelujah!!! I am all in! It has only taken 47 years for silver to reach 30x face and I am excited about holding copper pennies another 47 years for copper to outpace silver!! Whoo Hoo!

Uhm, on second thought... I may not live that long.

[gojomoso]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but I think the obvious needs to be stated here. Something is only "worth" what someone else is willing to pay for it. By that logic copper pennies are worth about 1.5X to 2.0X right now, and only if you've got a buyer. The fact that with a little effort one can get as many as they'd like at 1.0X face makes them a great short term investment. Get 'em, sort 'me, sell 'em, repeat as needed. Silver is a better vehicle for long term growth as far as I can tell. I'm no economist or commodities expert by any stretch of the imagination, but that's how I see it.

"...and that's all I have to say about that." -- Forrest Gump

and you do have to figure in the cost of your sorting machine, your time, or the amount you payed for the pennies. Silver is a lot easier to store....

[Lemon Thrower]

the advantages of copper as i see it is you can capture the spread between face and say 1.5x if you are willing to sort.

at 1.5x, if you are willing to hold, you should eventually be able to capture say 80% of melt, which is about .9X ((.8 * 2.9) - 1.5) when the melt ban is lifted. plus you have the potential for upward appreciation in copper.

silver is less "safe" in that you don't have a built in gain between face and market or the opportunity for a jump between market and melt. but the potential for appreciation in the value of the underlying metal far outweighs this imho. of course, that is a personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves.

[hejira11]

I am a diversified investor. I own .999 Copper, Nickel, Silver and Gold.

I hoard the correct 82 and older cents. Seperate my Wheats. I Hoard US Nickels and the correct years of CAD Nickels. The Gold and Copper bullion I have were gifts. Silver is my core position. Lets just say I LIKE it.

In the end, I think the members here are wiser and better informed than 95% of the people around them.

I pray for wisdom for everyone. I fear for a world that has 3000 an ounce Gold. That will not be a happy day for the United States of America, As we now know it.

[Snake42]

Guys... there is way too much hating in this thread. I think we need to hug this one out.

[slickeast]

Guys... there is way too much hating in this thread. I think we need to hug this one out.

I don't think any punches have been thrown or anyone left the room crying....yet.

Copper/ brass pennies will be worth something one day. When and how much...who knows?

Wait if you want. When the are worth 10x face and you are getting 5% or less no one will want to sort then either.

When the melt ban is lifted, watch how fast your percentages go down. BIG BOYS will enter the game and suck pennies out of circulation faster than Joey Chestnut eating hotdogs at the hotdog eating contest.

Then people will say " Darn I wish I would have sorter more when I had the chance!!!!"

[VWBEAMER]

I hope no one takes what I say personally, it's not meant that way....

I agree with slickeast.

[pennypicker]

I pray for wisdom for everyone. I fear for a world that has 3000 an ounce Gold. That will not be a happy day for the United States of America, As we now know it.

Very profound statement. The last thing this country needs is an accelerated widening of the gap between the rich and poor--the poor and already squeezed lower-middle class aren't going to take it much longer!

[HoardCopperByTheTon]

the problem is you can't get copper at face without a lot of work.

If you could.. everybody would be doing it. Where would your premiums be then?

As the guy featured on our coppers once said.. "Good things come to those who wait.. but only those things left by those who hustle."

[highroller4321]

I agree with everything in concept the OP stated except one tinsy little fact he omitted.... The one cent US coin in NOT copper bullion. It is brass. It's the same brass they use on full metal jackets on bullets and is called "gilding metal". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding_metal

They will never be worth 100% of "melt value" to anyone savvy in metals.

Brass cents are a good investment within a diversified portfolio of metals. Hoard them all you want, sell them all you want, but don't delude yourselves into thinking they are the equivalent of 100% copper bullion. It ain't so!

It reminds me of the bank fiasco of 2008, where banksters bundled up large lots of mortgages and sold them as investments to people. They didn't care there was an illusion to the investments and that it could go sour. Then the fools turned around and bought each others bad paper! You know the rest of the story.

The copper cent is purer copper than "premium junk silver bullion" is pure silver. Something to think about.

Sure, maybe in relation to spot, we'll have to accept the rate that 40% halves get for silver spot. But who cares? That's like 85%-90% of spot. When copper gets going, and people really want those copper cents, you'll see 75% of melt, if not more, paid for a copper cent.

Remember: A copper penny is more pure than a silver half.

As I stated originally, I agree with the logic of the OP. Copper bullion has outperformed both silver and gold since the crash of 2008. And I have happily sat on #1 copper waiting for it to continue to grow in price. The future of copper is very bullish.

There are, however, two false dicotimies in the OP.

First, the "melt value" as published on Coinflation is accepted as the target price for copper pennies. That premise is false, for the US one cent coin is NOT investment grade copper bullion. It is brass. Gilding metal brass to be specific. It will never fetch spot prices to anyone with working knowledge of investment metals.

Second is almost identical to the first. The premise that "Copper Penny Bullion Investing" is investing into copper bullion. That is false. When you invest in "copper" pennies, you are buying a copper/zinc alloy called "gilding metal" brass, NOT bullion grade copper . No matter how fine you split hairs about copper pennies are more pure than a silver half, it does not matter. It is still a brass alloy and not copper bullion and no one who makes their living with metals will buy into that false premise.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Brass cent peices are a good long term investment and I have many pounds of them to prove it.

The message I am trying to send is that these pennies are not copper bullion and if you invest in them as copper bullion you run the risk of over-paying for a good deal. If you are like P.T. Barnum ("there is a sucker born every minute"), it is okay to sell them as investment grade copper bullion.

Just don't become your own sucker.

Bullion is not defined as .999 purity. Copper pennies are a form of copper bullion just like 90% is a form of silver bullion.




Why is the coinflation target price false? It is false only if you are thinking that you can get that number from the smelter. On a retail market, with the melt ban being off they will most likely sell for melt or a small premium. Coinflation melt value on 90% right now is 35.54x face. Apmex sell price right now is 35.52x face. The price will depend on your outlet to get rid of them. A scrap yard is going to most likely pay you close to #2 scrap. A foundry is going to pay you based on their need for that certian composition mix. A investor is going to pay you for the value of the metal.

[highroller4321]

nice little post with a subtle promotion to finish.

I'm torn between hoarding copper or just buying into index funds.

I am simply trying to promote a discussion on copper. Yes, I have a business in copper but I also very very heavily invest it in personally.

[highroller4321]

well you can't get copper cents for face today unless you value your time to sort at zero.

if you bought copper cents at 1.5x today in 5-10 years copper might be $9 so you might quadruple your money.

if you buy silver at $46 an oz today if might be $200-500 in 5-10 years, 5-11X your money.

so i respectfully disagree that copper is better than silver long term.

the reason for the expected disparity is that silver is monetary metal and has been supressed while copper has not been supressed. future demand for copper will increase in proportion with future business activity while future demand for silver will increase exponentially as invement money moves from the FIRE economy to the real economy.

Copper has to rise 173% compared to silvers 334% (on your low end) for this statement to be true.

[Lemon Thrower]

well you can't get copper cents for face today unless you value your time to sort at zero.

if you bought copper cents at 1.5x today in 5-10 years copper might be $9 so you might quadruple your money.

if you buy silver at $46 an oz today if might be $200-500 in 5-10 years, 5-11X your money.

so i respectfully disagree that copper is better than silver long term.

the reason for the expected disparity is that silver is monetary metal and has been supressed while copper has not been supressed. future demand for copper will increase in proportion with future business activity while future demand for silver will increase exponentially as invement money moves from the FIRE economy to the real economy.

Copper has to rise 173% compared to silvers 334% (on your low end) for this statement to be true.

true, but do you know any central banks buying copper for their reserves?

By way of example, Goldmoney.com lets you put your money in gold, silver, plat, palladium, but not copper. the reason why is copper is an industrial metal. Its value is highly correlated with the level of business activity. gold and silver are monetary metals and more closely correlated with the investment demand for alternatives to fiat currencies. admittedly there is overlap between the two but the big dollars do not recognize copper as a monetary metal. part of the reason they don't is that its price is tied to the economy. Paradoxically, gold's alleged lack of utility is what makes it perfect as a monetary metal, and silver's greater industrial utility is what makes it less good as money.



also, as a practical matter, besides a 174% rise in the price of copper, you need a change in the law. as long as the govt still mints a copper-colored penny, they are highly unlikely to repeal the melt ban. if copper rises that much and there is no change in the law, then you won't be able to realize as large a profit in copper.

bottom line, most of what is going on is (1) a shift in investment demand from govt paper to gold and silver, (2) inflation causing all assets measured in dollars to rise in nominal terms, and (3) a shift of speculative investment demand from equity markets to commodity markets. Copper has benefited from no. 3, and will continue to benefit from no. 2, but will not benefit from no. 1 like gold and silver have.






http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=slv#chart2:symbol=slv;range=my;compare=jjc;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined%20height%20=%20400%20width%20=%20600

[VWBEAMER]

Silver is one of the most Volatile metals. if the FED raises interest rates and tightens the money supply,
silver would drop to $25 an ounce in a few weeks.

You could make more with silver, but you could also lose more. Silver looks good right now because it’s gone straight up.

Copper pennies not only do you have a solid bottom of 1 cent each, you are protected if we have a recovery, your are protected if we have inflation, protected if we have deflation.

1. Recovery happens, increases demand for copper, copper pennies go up.
2. Inflation happens, metals go up, copper pennies go up.
3. Deflation happens, money has increased buying power, pennies are money. So the money you have in pennies give you increased buying power.
4. Non of the above happens, you still have a penny!

I can name several ways you can lose BIG money on silver, especially with it at $50 an ounce right now. Only thing you can loose on copper pennies is opportunity cost, and time sorting.
.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

the problem is you can't get copper at face without a lot of work.

If you could.. everybody would be doing it. Where would your premiums be then?

As the guy featured on our coppers once said.. "Good things come to those who wait.. but only those things left by those who hustle."

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

I agree with everything in concept the OP stated except one tinsy little fact he omitted.... The one cent US coin in NOT copper bullion. It is brass. It's the same brass they use on full metal jackets on bullets and is called "gilding metal". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilding_metal

Just don't become your own sucker.

Bullion is not defined as .999 purity. Copper pennies are a form of copper bullion just like 90% is a form of silver bullion.




Why is the coinflation target price false? It is false only if you are thinking that you can get that number from the smelter. On a retail market, with the melt ban being off they will most likely sell for melt or a small premium. Coinflation melt value on 90% right now is 35.54x face. Apmex sell price right now is 35.52x face. The price will depend on your outlet to get rid of them. A scrap yard is going to most likely pay you close to #2 scrap. A foundry is going to pay you based on their need for that certian composition mix. A investor is going to pay you for the value of the metal.

[/quote]

Coinflation's "melt value" numbers are if you could separate the pure metals out of the alloy and sell them individually, IMHO. You cannot do that without first smelting, or electroplating, the copper from the zinc. That incures costs. Those costs must be deducted from the "melt value" to obtain the true value of the metal content of the coins.

Investors will pay you for the percieved value of the metals. That is the "hype" I am talking about. If an investor feels pennies will one day soon sell for 5x face, why not pay 2x face now? As more people try to buy at 2x face... someone will bid it up to 3x face. Then 4x face, and so on.

I am just sitting here having a little fun. What the hell? I am not trying to offend anyone. Everyone has their own way of looking at things and I am just typing out mine. Everyone buys/ invests at their own comfort level of risk vs. reward.

I have used Coinflation's numbers to buy silver like crazy when spot was below $18. I would show Coinflation's spread sheet to sellers & outbid everyone else. My percieved value of the silver coins was over $30, so buying "melt value" @ $18.00 was a steal to me. Sheikh's #1 wife would roll her eyes and sigh deeply, thinking I was being a fool. Now, with the price way, way up from what I bought at.... she smiles a lot.