POLL: American Eagles; Worth the Premium?

[AGgressive Metal]

Please state your case! I am going to try to compile the most erudite and thoughtful opinions and turn them into a blog post. If you have far-out theories about why they are good or bad I want to hear them - nothing is too tin-foil! My personal opinion is that pure economics says its better to buy silver and gold as close to spot as possible, but I want to hear all sides.

[AGgressive Metal]

I am voting undecided for now, and will write a blog post with my final opinion after I hear what the veterans of Realcent have to say about their beliefs about the future as well as their personal experiences to date.

Blog site here: http://thesilversquirrel.blogspot.com/

[hejira11]

As the world stands now, I prefer coins over rounds. I have both. WHEN I need to use or trade them I will always reach for the bars and rounds first, the COINS will be what I hold the longest. I trust the easy recognizability of coins, and the fact that they are guaranteed by the government to contain what they say they are. I say this with the knowledge that 1, to perhaps, 3 percent of the people around this dumbed down nation even remotely accepts the concept that silver is money.

Forseeing that I may have to do some impromtu lessons in the value of the "magical shiny coins" I offer up in barter for the 'WHATEVER' I need from someone without a clue- scares the hell out of me. I think good old U.S. currency is the easiest and fastest way to get your point across tothe other 97% or more of us.

To anyone here, I collect Engelhard and JM first and coins second. I trust most commonly known mints...Silvertown, Quality Silver Bullion, Scottsdale. I buy nothing larger than 10 ounces and I weigh and ping test everything i buy and hold.

I guess I am compensating for the stupidity of those around me. All things being equal though....silver is silver, if it is, in fact, Silver.

[timmus0382]

I buy as close to spot as I possibly can. If you are buying brand name stuff I can't see where you are going to have a problem. I hold eagles but I dont go overboard and only buy eagles. Yeah the eagles are "trustworthy" because they are from the govt. but really when did we start trusting the govt? I can see them watering down eagles in the future. Instead of .999 I can see something gradually leaning toward .991 and who would ever really figure that out how could you possibly tell? I dont think our scales are really that good to tell that kind of difference. However looking forward as this silver thing becomes larger and larger and the masses get involved I think we will start to see lots of fake bullion out there. People are crafty and I think anything can be manupilated. So I guess maybe old junk silver could become worth it because those are extremly hard to manupilate. Yeah I just think I figured out that I need to buy more 90%

[Rodebaugh]

Putting a premium on ASEs feels very pseudo-numismatic and misleading. I don’t subscribe to the recognizably bologna. A Gorham fork stamped “sterling silver” has the same familiarity to the lay person as an ASE stamped “fine silver”.

So is its true value in silver or collectability? Is there ever going to be a rare key date Bullion ASE? Some people like to say the 1996 is a key. I like to ask, “in what condition?”.....in XF it's rare....otherwise there are boxes on boxes of mint 1996's out there. When was the last time you had the opportunity to buy a monster box of BU Morgans? (point me to that web site).

What has more value an ASE with my greasy thumb print on lady liberty’s gown or a cartwheel white BU hot of the die sunshine round? Which one does the refiner pay you more for when he melts them?

closeing thoughts: I like ASEs as much as the next silver bug but I don't put much, if any, of a premium on them. Just modern day junk to me.

[Luoganta]

Worth the Premium? Better question...will you pay the premium.
Depends on the person I guess. The way I look at it is...if you had in your hand at a shop an eagle and a simple .999 round both right at spot, which would you take? (assuming you can only have 1)

I believe most people would take the eagle - the reason for that would change from person to person but the simple fact that people would rather have the eagle is WHY it has a premium. It is still(?) the best selling bullion coin in the world, and if it wasn't worth it...people wouldn't pay it. Is it worth a 15 dollar premium?...Not likely but at the same time would you think twice about picking up an eagle just 1 penny over spot?

[merchoarder]

I voted no, for other reasons. Good posts on this thread already and I agree with parts of all them. I am not a firm believer in TSHTF and I hope to hell it doesn't BUT I don't think it is completely unrealistic either. If it does, I'll be real happy with my dimes. If TSHTF, premiums are out the window, but there is still no way I'd buy a loaf of bread with a 16d merc
I'm also kind of a "silver is silver" guy so I buy what I can for as cheap as possible. I have a small budget and I'd rather spend $150 for a roll of silver dimes (.0724x50=3.62oz ASW) vs. 3 ASE.
As for premiums in general, I don't mind paying them when I have some extra cash. I realize that many think the ASE is a beautiful coin, and it is, just not my favorite. Personal preference but I think maple leafs are much nicer coins, especially the wolf and grizzly. I also prefer the Philharmonics and Libertads. They are all stamped one oz .999 (.9999 Canadian, another plus) so recognition not an issue. I can get the same design on halves for much cheaper, and the reverse is WAY nicer.
So, to quote doc "I like ASEs as much as the next silver bug but I don't put much, if any, of a premium on them. Just modern day junk to me." Well said.

[AGgressive Metal]

26 votes and five comments (good ones too!). Anyone else care to weigh in? I think a lot of novice silver buyers do not know the pros and cons and would appreciate as much wisdom as possible!

Does anyone care about the legal status of the coins (legal tender issues, etc)?

[merchoarder]

Yes vs No seems to be pretty even yet there is no one defending Yes? Another facet of this gem of a question is mintage numbers. Doc's post kind of implies a question to which I have no answer? How many ASE's were minted? How do they compare to the mintage's of Morgans? Within the next few years as silver spot gets higher, more and more of the older coins are going going to the vat. Impossible to have any numbers but whats going to get melted? The cull Morgan's or the BU ASE's? After the 1980 craze and today's (and tomorrows) highs, no one knows how much "junk" was melted down.
Going way out on a limb here but is it possible that in ten years heavily circulated Morgans will be RARER than finer examples? Logic being that the culls get melted and the BU's don't.
ASE's seem to be minted as many as the demand commands. They're not making 90% anymore...

[Redneck]

No. (for other reasons)

Government minted coins and bullion are property of the government, therefore subject to confiscation should it be deemed necessary.

Generic rounds, bars and other forms of bullion including jewelry should remain unaffected.


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[68Camaro]

No. (for other reasons)

Government minted coins and bullion are property of the government, therefore subject to confiscation should it be deemed necessary.
>

Please show the reference that proves this...

As far as the general topic of confiscation goes, if it wants to, the government can confiscate anything they want. If it chooses to do so, and knows you have it.

[fusscharles]

I would like to see a radial: "No, but I buy them at spot so, I think the premium is worth it"

[Country]

Not worth it. The best buy in SILVER right now is 90% junk SILVER coins. ASE SILVER is expensive and the premiums are inflated at this time. You can buy junk SILVER coins for less than spot, and they are a diminishing coin as the smelters are removing them. Further, as the melting of our American real money coins continues, they could become numismatically valuable in not too many years. These coins were meant for circulation, perhaps they will be again. You can't touch your ASEs, but you can jingle junk SILVER. What a nice sound it is. So, why buy the popular fad of the moment, when you can get good SILVER at a discount to spot? Be a contrarian, and buy your SILVER cheap.

[franklin]

If it will carry the premium with it when I sell, I will pay it. But, like Rodebaugh stated, it is really just ordinary silver.

[Slaphot]

How many ASE's were minted? How do they compare to the mintage's of Morgans?.

Between 1986 and 2009 aprox 202.7 Million ASE's were minted. Lowest: In 1996 (Key Date) only 3.6 million were minted. Highest: In 2009 27.1 million were minted. I don't have the figures for last year. Average 8.8 million per year. There were aprox 662 million Morgans minted, who knows how many are left?

Edit* 202.7 million ASE's were minted between 1986-2009

I like the Eagle, BUT it all depends on the premium over spot. I don't mind payin $3 over spot, but I haven't seen that for a while. I have a feeling that the premiums will keep rising with the POS. I do think when you are ready to sell you will be able to ge your premium back. I selected option one, but given the choice I will always go with the best bang for my buck. I think a good mix is always the best, ASE's, premium and genaric .999, Morgans as well as 90% junk.
Diversify!

[Morsecode]

I voted no, at the current premium. If it was $3 or $4, I might've voted differently, though I still would be in no rush to accumulate them.

Rodebaugh's comment "psuedo-numismatic" is dead on. I can recall first seeing slabbed Eagles coming into the market and thinking here's a solution in search of a problem. Smelled gimmicky from the get go. Home Shopping Network cemented that suspicion.

FWIW, I am still surprised that there is no 50 cent 1/2 oz version.

[RR GUY]

How many ASE's were minted? How do they compare to the mintage's of Morgans?.

Between 1986 and 2009 aprox 202.7 Million ASE's were minted. Lowest: In 1996 (Key Date) only 3.6 million were minted. Highest: In 2009 27.1 million were minted. I don't have the figures for last year. Average 8.8 million per year. There were aprox 662 million Morgans minted, who knows how many are left?

Edit* 202.7 million ASE's were minted between 1986-2009

I like the Eagle, BUT it all depends on the premium over spot. I don't mind payin $3 over spot, but I haven't seen that for a while. I have a feeling that the premiums will keep rising with the POS. I do think when you are ready to sell you will be able to ge your premium back. I selected option one, but given the choice I will always go with the best bang for my buck. I think a good mix is always the best, ASE's, premium and genaric .999, Morgans as well as 90% junk.
Diversify!

There are probably about 300MM Morgans left. Nearly 300MM were melted in 1918 (the Pittman Act) though much of the metal was reused in the 1921 minting and subsequent Peace dollar mintings of the 1920s. Following the big melt of 1980, another 100MM were estimated to have been melted. Thus only about 300MM could possible be in circulation today. This in my opinion makes them far more interesting than ASEs. This leaves only one Morgan for every American, and we all know that most collectors have hundreds of Morgans in their hands with no plans to monetize their silver value. Even the junk cull Morgans are a far better buy than ASEs are and will continue to hold their value as both a collectible and as bullion.

[Redneck]

No. (for other reasons)

Government minted coins and bullion are property of the government, therefore subject to confiscation should it be deemed necessary.
>

Please show the reference that proves this...

As far as the general topic of confiscation goes, if it wants to, the government can confiscate anything they want. If it chooses to do so, and knows you have it.

From various sites.

Under the currency or coinage Acts of almost all nations, the government (and/or central bank) at all times directly owns the coins and notes issued in that country. This means that if you purchase a bullion (gold or silver) coin issued by government, you are only the BEARER of the coin, and never the outright owner. The issuing government owns the coin. Should the government decide to recall that coin, which they can do at any time they wish, they will pay you for the face value of the coin, and not its true metal value. Governments have a long history of recalling bullion coinage when their economies head into rough times, a recent example in the western world being 1933 in the US.

When you purchase non-legal-tender, privately issued coinage, you are the outright owner, not just the bearer. You now have outright ownership of bullion coins of a fixed and defined weight and purity, which are freely exchangeable for other goods or services in the free-market, and cannot be recalled by an issuing government. (in theory)

Many people are unaware of this fact: Government issued coins are not yours, you are only the BEARER of the coin, NOT the owner, as it is actual currency owned by the government. Just like on a dollar note, it says you are “the bearer”. This applies to all government issued currency.


The government issued gold and silver coins like the American Silver or Gold Eagle, Canadian Maple Leaf or any others always remain the property of the issuing government of the country in question. The purchasers are only the “bearers” of the coins and never attain complete ownership of the gold and silver for their asset value. This fact is not known to many people simply because they never ask and obviously, are never told.

But this is really a moot point, for as you have already said...

As far as the general topic of confiscation goes, if it wants to, the government can confiscate anything they want. If it chooses to do so, and knows you have it.

Sad but true...

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[amalekidad]

I'm less likely to question the content of an ASE than a round. Everyone is more likely to appecpt the ASE than a round. IMHO

[Mossy]

I also regard ASE and AGE coins as pseudo-numismatic, so the (small) premium I'm willing to pay has more to do with dimension and weight uniformity and how recognizable they are.

Counterfeiting is going to become more and more a problem, so the general public is going to need better knowledge and tools.

The Fische kits sound like a good bet, but Fische has retired to South Africa. I think they'd take off in the market, if he sold the rights to someone like Kitco.

[AGgressive Metal]

I'd be interested in seeing a single court case or statute or common law reference which says coins are property of the government. My guess is that there is none, because I think that's complete BS.

"Bearer" in Black's Law Dictionary is described as, "One who possesses a negotiable instrument marked 'payable to bearer' or indorsed in blank." I can't see any connection here to coins.

Blacks Law, on "Coin": Pieces of gold, silver, or other metal, fashioned into a prescribed shape, weight, and degree of fineness, and stamped, by authority of government, with certain marks and devices, and put into circulation as money at a fixed value.

When FDR called in the gold, he didn't just outlaw gold coins - bullion bars were included as well.

[AGgressive Metal]

Looks like we have 16 for and 23 against, with 2 undecided (including me).

[timmus0382]

Hit a coin shop today. spot was $35.55 when I walked in. They wanted $57 for eagles! I said no way! Spot was at $35.55. He was selling 1 oz. A-Mark bars for spot and Morgans for $27. It was a no brainer, by the A-Mark and Morgans!

[Neckro]

Ask him what he's paying for Eagles.

[RR GUY]

Hit a coin shop today. spot was $35.55 when I walked in. They wanted $57 for eagles! I said no way! Spot was at $35.55. He was selling 1 oz. A-Mark bars for spot and Morgans for $27. It was a no brainer, by the A-Mark and Morgans!

The price disparity is amazing to me. When I started buying ASEs some twenty+ years ago, I was paying about 200/roll, which was about the same price as an ordinary Morgan roll. Now, there is a whopping $10-15 premium over junk and collectable circulated coins. Just this week, a dealer offered to purchase some rolls from me for about $44 per coin. I declined, but I told him I'd be willing to trade if the deal was good for me. He traded me one roll of ASEs for 80 well circulated Franklin halves. While the roll was of course BU (never opened, never touched) and an early 1987 mintage (which I'm sure he was going to have sent out and graded), I felt that I got the better end of the trade. I walked off with melt of about $1000 for the Franklins, and he got melt of about $710. I knew that I was trading quality for bullion of course, but when the chickens are feeding.....

The dealer told me that most of the new buyers today want the fancy shiny bullion. He was all cleared our of ASEs and bars, but had plenty of junk and colelctable coins. It seems that nobody wants all the halves and the Morgan/Peace dollars that I prefer.