gold/silver collecting go w/ being religious/conservative?

[cesariojpn]

You can't get more liberal than me. I'm a classic New York City liberal and yet, I've been colllecting coins and silver since a kid. I think that as a third generation American, I'm very cognizant of the wealth that has been created from my grandparents (born on the lower east side of dirt poor immigrants) and parents and understand the value of preservation of capital.

You raise a very interesting factor: Are many of us hoarding due to political influences, or cultural influences?

I could say that from my mom's side, I might've gotten some of my Grandma's genes. She was a prolific penny saver.....she could use plastic butter tubs for almost everything.

[neilgin1]

I am an Eastern Orthodox Priest, and believe that evil is not an essential part of man's essence. God crated him, and said that His creation was "good". But, indeed after the fall sin and death have entered into our world; the old "Social Gospel" liberals at times ignored this. Today many "liberals" are nothing less than narcissists and hedons.

Yest, I believe on this forum we have many who have not yet come to believe in God through Christ who are more responsible libertarians than irresponsible spendthrifts. Their morality put some so called "Christians" to shame. Whether we all realize it, or accept it; I believe what binds us together on this fourm is our God given high calling as Man, to be responsbile stewards of the earth. PM's are of the earth in a way that ethereal electronic money will never touch or handle.

wow! first of all, thats a well written, lovingly thought out post...where i sit, only the Holy Spirit could have engendered you to speak as such...secondly, you're an Eastern Orthodox priest?...thats a trip, and i mean that in the most loving, respectful way, and i'm a Jew who follows Jesus, so i guess that makes me a kind of a "trip" as well, but after ten years of following Messiah, you know what blows my soul? How many different denominations there are....or various "churches:..small c...and i dont mean that as an insult, its just a fact, Roman Catholic, Eastern and Russian Orthodox, the multitude of Protestant denominations, etc....and then i reflect on the import of John 17, which is, as you well know, the "High Priestly Prayer" of Jesus..."that they may be one as We are One"......here's something i think you and other brothers might enjoy, http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilati ... Nation.mp3

from 2002 to 2004, i cut together a bunch of compilations, spoken word with music, it was a form of ministry...the one above is entitled "Shake the nation"...you can hear the others i and Jesus did by going to this page
http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/index.html
scrolling down and looking under "neil"...i hope this blesses you all.

heres for my bros Thogey and 68, its called "Sheath the Sword"
http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilati ... Sword2.mp3

[Rosco]

Golng a bit off-topic, but we need labels. It's very difficult to have a conversation without them. Sometimes they need to be clarified, or bounded. And they can be abused or misused. But otherwise without them we would spend our entire conversation defining terms, and get very little other said. I'm a "conservative" in that I believe that prior well-thought-out principals should not be re-defined or re-interpreted without extreme care, and even then only sparingly. In that respect, I lean "right". I'm a "Christian" in that I try to follow Christ. I'm neither "Republican" or "Libertarian", though I identify with certain core principals of each, but not all of either.

Being "religious" got a bad rap back in Jesus' day. I understand what those mean, that don't want to identify with that. I don't want to be religious in that sense either.

I believe there is an eternity, and that it can only be gotten there by one way. I care where people spend eternity. But I'm not going to get in their face about it, when they (especially in the US) have had plenty of opportunity to be informed and make their own decision. I will make my views known, and continue to discuss them with people that ask. If don't ask, I don't push it.

I'm fine with people being "Progressive" or "Democrat" or "Socialist" or "Agnostic" or "Atheist" or "left of center" in general, as long as they don't impose on my freedoms or rights. (Which, unfortunately, we too often disagree on what is a freedom or right.) If the impose on me, then we start getting on the wrong side of an argument, and I can get testy about it. But that is a topic for an entirely other discussion. One that I too often don't have much time to indulge in.

+1

As a older person I struggle with youngsters telling me what I should do now that I have saved some thing, They did not at lower wages save as I did , But Want me to Listen to their LEFTEST BOOK LEARNING

[RR GUY]

You can't get more liberal than me. I'm a classic New York City liberal and yet, I've been colllecting coins and silver since a kid. I think that as a third generation American, I'm very cognizant of the wealth that has been created from my grandparents (born on the lower east side of dirt poor immigrants) and parents and understand the value of preservation of capital.

You raise a very interesting factor: Are many of us hoarding due to political influences, or cultural influences?

I could say that from my mom's side, I might've gotten some of my Grandma's genes. She was a prolific penny saver.....she could use plastic butter tubs for almost everything.

Whether you are a conservative or liberal, we can both agree that government has failed us all. There are many reasons why this has happened and are obvious to most participants on this forum. Regardless, I believe that as a liberal, we have a duty to provide a safety net for those in need and those left behind. But the safety net starts at home. Saving and investing were the at the core of the middle class explosion in post-war America, not consumption. Most of the wealth was created by the WWII generation, who having lived through the depression were keenly aware of what it was like to live without. First during the depression and then during the war when rations limited consumption of household goods. To answer your question, I believe that many here do invest in hard assets as a result of cultural influence. While many of us do not like the government we have today, I'm not sure most of us concur with the believe that the country will fall into a lawless society.

[argent_pur]

I do believe it's the mark of a benevolent and moral government to do what it can to assist people who would otherwise starve to death. But, while handouts provide a fix in the short run, they create long run problems because of the nature of people. You guarantee a person an income in later years and you create dis-incentives to be financially prudent during their working years. The savings rate plummeted and has never really recovered since SSI was established. Fully 3 out of 4 SS recipients are either totally or mostly dependent on those checks to keep eating, of course not the original intention of the program. I'm not sure where along the line people were convinced that they could consume their way to wealth, like you mentioned RR (you liberal scoundrel:) )

So, if you're the government, what do you do? Many people don't have family support (for a whole host of reasons), where else can they go? Do we let them starve, even if their problems were of their own making (which many of them are)?

As an aside, my Sunday school teacher was having a conversation with a liberal colleague at the college where they both teach, and he came away realizing that many of the issues that conservatives think of as moral issues aren't moral issues to liberals. Liberals tend to think of moral issues in a collective manner, so she said, so we really argue past each other because while we think we're arguing the same points from different perspectives, we really just have different starting points, so none of the ensuing arguments really make sense. He had never thought about it that way before. Anyway, I'm glad that we can get along here and be sort of a sanctuary from the crap that plagues the world.

[Treetop]

So, if you're the government, what do you do? Many people don't have family support (for a whole host of reasons), where else can they go? Do we let them starve, even if their problems were of their own making (which many of them are)?

If for some weird reason it was suddenly up to me to decide... They would get a sack of beans and rice. some dried or canned fruits and veggies, seeds, land, and about 3k-5k in supplies that make it possible to farm their new homestead. this might be different in each area. In mine it might be a pickaxe, pond fabric to collect and store water. (if your efficient with usage this is a workable method they can expand on for free with lots of work) shovels wheel barrows, plans for making adobe bricks... etc etc. maybe some fencing and a few chickens and a milking goat... just enough to get going, and basic tools and books showing how to build onto it..... you could do just the land as well, but It would work much better with some basic tools and basic infrastructure.

[kidman232]

now im a pretty liberal person, but this was a facebook status of someone I know that made me shake my head

"omg i love shoppin when u got a foodstamp card. lol'

[tn-dave]

PM collector/hoarder/survivalist/religious/conservative/gun-owner

I guess I fit the stereotype....

[cesariojpn]

now im a pretty liberal person, but this was a facebook status of someone I know that made me shake my head

"omg i love shoppin when u got a foodstamp card. lol'

Probably loading the cart with rib eye and lobster, with like a tanker full worth of Faygo.

[WizardTN]

I think some of you have forgotten that SS was setup to be a 'Trust Fund" that I paid into for many years, and the government stole the money from that fund which should have been compounding. In fact, the "loans" to the government from that fund are still owing and if not with interest, [anger]I want to know WHY NOT!!!![/anger]

[68Camaro]

...he came away realizing that many of the issues that conservatives think of as moral issues aren't moral issues to liberals. Liberals tend to think of moral issues in a collective manner, so she said, so we really argue past each other because while we think we're arguing the same points from different perspectives, we really just have different starting points, so none of the ensuing arguments really make sense.

I know we've gone hugely off-topic here, but can you expand on this (without putting us in a danger zone)? In what way(s) do conservatives and liberals not think alike? I just know that I have a tough time finding a liberal that I can actually have a conversation with on the issues. (I'm sure they feel the same way.) They exist, I've seen a few on TV, and talked to a couple, but most seem to think so differently that I've concluded that there is some huge difference in thought process or starting point or worldview - which you seem to touch on here - but I've not been able to get more specific than that. I would at least like to understand why they think the way they do. (And maybe them, me.)

Frankly, there comes a point where differences can be so divisive that we can't get along - and, hey, here's a thought - maybe we shouldn't have to - except at the national level. If some people want an invasive centralized that-controls-and-burrows-into-all-aspects-of-my-life government, and others don't - there isn't a good compromise. So, you all go make your country how you want it, and let me have my country how I want it... We can visit, vacation, trade, conduct business, etc. But we don't have to live together and operate under the same rules. Just a thought...

[WizardTN]

So, if you're the government, what do you do? Many people don't have family support (for a whole host of reasons), where else can they go? Do we let them starve, even if their problems were of their own making (which many of them are)?

If for some weird reason it was suddenly up to me to decide... They would get a sack of beans and rice. some dried or canned fruits and veggies, seeds, land, and about 3k-5k in supplies that make it possible to farm their new homestead. this might be different in each area. In mine it might be a pickaxe, pond fabric to collect and store water. (if your efficient with usage this is a workable method they can expand on for free with lots of work) shovels wheel barrows, plans for making adobe bricks... etc etc. maybe some fencing and a few chickens and a milking goat... just enough to get going, and basic tools and books showing how to build onto it..... you could do just the land as well, but It would work much better with some basic tools and basic infrastructure.

How very nice of you to "allow" me all that after I paid 45 years into a "Trust Fund" that was going to pay me back when I retired.
Now all I have to do is figure out how to use all that magnanimus gift while sitting in this wheelchair with my right arm and leg not working properly.
Maybe I could get a mule to pull my chair along?

I think your worldview needs some expansion beyond your own circle.

Now I am going to back out of here before I really blow my top and say something I will regret later.

You folks have a great rest of your lives.

[Treetop]

How very nice of you to "allow" me all that after I paid 45 years into a "Trust Fund" that was going to pay me back when I retired.
Now all I have to do is figure out how to use all that magnanimus gift while sitting in this wheelchair with my right arm and leg not working properly.
Maybe I could get a mule to pull my chair along?

I think your worldview needs some expansion beyond your own circle.

Now I am going to back out of here before I really blow my top and say something I will regret later.

You folks have a great rest of your lives.

Not trying to cause issues here, but you apparently misinterpretted something drastically here. "my worldview needs expansion huh??? because I believe a homesteading program would be a good idea??? first I wasnt talking about social security which it appears you are. I was talking about the starving in general. Second social security was never a trust fund, the money was never saved for you. Surely you knew this?? you paid into it, and it went to people who were collecting it while you paid into it. How about I turn the tables are you expecting My generation to raise their contributions and let you collect more then you paid into it??? (as some suggest) third medicare and social security will likely be slashed, if you dont realize that by now Id change my plans ASAP if I were you. 4th If you relied on SS for retirement, dont be angry at me if it fades away I paid into it for 18-19 years now myself and never expected to collect a dime. Heck even if you do get the cash it will likely be heavily inflated to the point its a fraction of its current value.

Anyway, how does me giving you an idea that isnt very common imply to you that I need expansion past my own circle???? that doesnt even make a shred of sense. If I was in your shoes Id be gathering folks now and building something to ensure I had a warm bed and warm food if these sociial systems fail, because i seems rather likely....

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

there an old saying something like " when your young and have nothing your a Liberal as you get older and work hard for what you have you become conservative." Just Saying...

It was Winston Churchhill who said: " When you are young and are not liberal, you don't have a heart. When you are old and not conservative, you don't have a brain." (He said it, not me! )

[Treetop]

Frankly, there comes a point where differences can be so divisive that we can't get along - and, hey, here's a thought - maybe we shouldn't have to - except at the national level. .

Honestly i think the two "sides" were to some degree programmed against eachother. Through media and the like. Kinda like divide and conquer of a sorts.... Ive always been what Id call for lack of better terms a liberal libertarian. Ive got friends from the whole spectrum of the rainbow politically speaking. Over time Ive seen this divide grow and grow. It also comes in phases where each side comes up with the same ideas from the same sources at the same time, kinda implying theres a purposeful hand in this growing divide.....

there were always differences in the two "sides".... but the gap gets wider by the day. in all honesty Ive found I have to word things in certain ways to even get folks form either side to understand my meanings because they seemed programmed to interpret words specific ways.

[68Camaro]

Understand, but that's also one of the rabbit trails. We're not on the same page, and it's not just a matter of terminology and definition. We really do believe in different things, and there does come a point in time where - if one side becomes too insistent ("leave me alone" ... "no - I insist that I be allowed to take care of you for your own good") that these two cannot live together.

[Treetop]

Understand, but that's also one of the rabbit trails. We're not on the same page, and it's not just a matter of terminology and definition. We really do believe in different things, and there does come a point in time where - if one side becomes too insistent ("leave me alone" ... "no - I insist that I be allowed to take care of you for your own good") that these two cannot live together.

Oh I agree. The two "sides" always saw things differently. But now each one seems to be taking it further and further, and getting angry at the other side.... heck many on both sides get rather hostile to myself as well not really fitting either mold. On a political forum Im on, im often ignored and honestly it seems like its because the "answers" I offer do not fit the programming of either side.

I think in the coming economic and social issues these two will be played off eachother so we are less likely to pull back the old curtain on the wizard so to speak. LOTS and LOTS of talk in lefty circles right now of "tea party terrorists"..... After having watched the evolution of past things (and how media related to that nut in norway) I think we will see some domestic issue (who knows maybe even a clandestine op if one doesnt arise) that will truly divide the two "sides"...... i want to go on but I likely offended some folks already i will leave it here...

[68Camaro]

That point is absolutely correct. When any side (regardless) gets hysterical, then they stop reasoning, stop listening, stop trying to understand. And there are those that would actually use that to their advantage. Beware of this, and of those!

Good point.

[Treetop]

Understand, but that's also one of the rabbit trails. We're not on the same page, and it's not just a matter of terminology and definition. We really do believe in different things, and there does come a point in time where - if one side becomes too insistent ("leave me alone" ... "no - I insist that I be allowed to take care of you for your own good") that these two cannot live together.

Oh I agree. The two "sides" always saw things differently. But now each one seems to be taking it further and further, and getting angry at the other side.... heck many on both sides get rather hostile to myself as well not really fitting either mold. On a political forum Im on, im often ignored and honestly it seems like its because the "answers" I offer do not fit the programming of either side.

I think in the coming economic and social issues these two will be played off eachother so we are less likely to pull back the old curtain on the wizard so to speak. LOTS and LOTS of talk in lefty circles right now of "tea party terrorists"..... After having watched the evolution of past things (and how media related to that nut in norway) I think we will see some domestic issue (who knows maybe even a clandestine op if one doesnt arise) that will truly divide the two "sides"...... i want to go on but I likely offended some folks already i will leave it here...

actually I forgot to make my point... I wont ask people to alter their values here, but I will ask you take a step back should we come to a place the two "sides" are truly pitted against eachother. this seems planned to me. It doesnt seem organic being a guy that actively reads MANY sources from "both" sides....

It seems to me (and keep in mind a handful of folks own most media except some new online stuff) that someone wants the two poles REAL angry at eachother, and for them to not even see ANYTHING good in eachother. the left sees the right as greedy and self serving, and that is exactly what the right sees the left as, and honestly on many topics its "true enough" that both sides dont seem likely to back down from those stances.... We really are more alike then we realize...... States rights could solve this!!!! so if it ever becomes clear TPTB want you to despise the left and we are at some key juncture where we SHOULD be looking behind the wizards curtain, lets go ahead and ignore the lefties or righties whichever the case may be, and pull back that curatin instead....

if we are to fix this country without a fall I promise all of you, it will be because we met i the middle!!! states rights can give us that imo....

[68Camaro]

...if we are to fix this country without a fall I promise all of you, it will be because we met i the middle!!! states rights can give us that imo....

Oh - I completely agree. This is what the nation's founders created for us, which has been debased over the past 100 years. Trouble it, this core concept of the country is now considered a "rightist/libertarian" view, which is completely rejected by the left without compromise. God help us...

[Treetop]

...if we are to fix this country without a fall I promise all of you, it will be because we met i the middle!!! states rights can give us that imo....

Oh - I completely agree. This is what the nation's founders created for us, which has been debased over the past 100 years. Trouble it, this core concept of the country is now considered a "rightist/libertarian" view, which is completely rejected by the left without compromise. God help us...

I once lambasted a bunch of democrats/liberals on a forum over this.... they had been going on on some righties over gay marriage, for forcing their version of marriage onto another. i wholeheartedly agreed with them. Yet these same lefties want me to pay their healthcare and 1000 other things and Im greedy if I dont want to.....

tried to tell them that within the context of our constitution we COULD of if they werent so weak built their OWN collectives. no reason to force everyone else into it!! If its so great people will join you.

Sharing this to also say that some of the more intelligent lefties did indeed see value in this thought, they just didnt think we had a clear path from where we are to there....

on a separate note, it is particularly discouraging how "childish" many on the left see the constitution. while at the same time there is a nearly fascist faction on the right that doesnt see the patriot act as any issue and many other trespasses. So they are JUST as bad!!!

those of us who know better from each side imo, better meet in the middle and soon, or one of these "wings" is going to get more powerful then the other and our american eagle will fly lopsided for awhile then fall from the sky in a tailspin.... I do agree the constitution could be a way out of this. not sure how to de program folks on it so to speak though.....

[neilgin1]

Saving and investing were the at the core of the middle class explosion in post-war America, not consumption. Most of the wealth was created by the WWII generation, who having lived through the depression were keenly aware of what it was like to live without. First during the depression and then during the war when rations limited consumption of household goods. To answer your question, I believe that many here do invest in hard assets as a result of cultural influence. While many of us do not like the government we have today, I'm not sure most of us concur with the believe that the country will fall into a lawless society.

i like what what you wrote RR. i was raised by my Grandmother, she was a woman of the Depression era. i miss her so much. She'd tell me tales of what happened, how the family got up into one household, about 7 of them, two of the men had jobs, my great grandmother was a whiz at gardening and baking, my grandmother was one heck of a cook herself, could make something out of nothing.

when i was a lad, oh boy, we had to do without...my mom and dad were kinda twiggy, a ruined marriage, my dads gone, mom's still around, God love her, but as twiggy as ever, LOVES rich people, LOVES money, but my grandmother was my ever present influence and guardian until she passed when i was 12. My grandmother had that Depression era/WW2 mindset in spades, thank God she passed it on to me, i save EVERYTHING...not alike some crazy packrat, but stuff of utility, those neat blue Maxwell House plastic coffee containers'?...the kind with the snap top?..they are great for putting stuff in, airtight. i buy the American apple juice, i forget the name of the firm, but they make a real sturdy bottle, thick plastic, i wash all them out, and use them for water jugs, which i put into OAK apple crates, i snapped up from the largest orchard around her, best hundred dollars i ever spent.

when i was 10, 11, and 12, sometimes we wouldnt have any money for supper, i'd go to the big grocery store on both fridays and saturdays and hang outside and offer to help folks with their packages to the car...most of them said yes and would tip me, i'd make anywhere from 6 to 12 dollars and in the early 70's...that was a lot back then and we'd use that to go buy supper fixings. I dont say that in a "BOO HOO poor me".....NO!...that shaped me, toughened me up, helped get my priorities straight, and i'm MORE than thankful for that...the one thing i was NEVER denied was books, i might have had two pairs to my name, but when the Scholastic book folks would come with their catalogue, my grandmother told me to get whatever i wanted, which i did...and READ...she was swell, and i miss her.

she died when i was 12, and then life got to be like hell, my poor mother didnt have a clue, suffered for 5 years, then took off for the Navy at 17...i was planning on doing that after college anyway, at 21, but...lol..i had to accelerate my plans. hee hee hee, and here we are today, the second Depression...GOOD!...maybe it'll change this nation for the better, but i sure am sorry there's a lot of anger in this thread...thats too bad...i mean that...you men will NEVER get an argument from me...the worst time to be fussing is when your struggling to survive...during that battle?...to me, thats the time to be really gentle and cool and compassionate with each other, but its easy to whale on one another on this medium...but face to face?...naw, gotta be strong, pull together, quit tearing at one another....this coming week, the week of August 11 thru the 15th promises to be a hell week...lots of bad stuff coming down the pike...so what?...BRING IT, i say...i know i can take it, i just hope that we as a nation , can take it, and come out stronger, and if we dont?....hey, thats called history...history wil be the judge...what did they do as a nation when things got tough? fold?...okay...or did they grow up and get stronger?...history will judge. neil, bondservant of Christ

[argent_pur]

How very nice of you to "allow" me all that after I paid 45 years into a "Trust Fund" that was going to pay me back when I retired.
Now all I have to do is figure out how to use all that magnanimus gift while sitting in this wheelchair with my right arm and leg not working properly.
Maybe I could get a mule to pull my chair along?

I think your worldview needs some expansion beyond your own circle.

Now I am going to back out of here before I really blow my top and say something I will regret later.

You folks have a great rest of your lives.

Not trying to cause issues here, but you apparently misinterpretted something drastically here. "my worldview needs expansion huh??? because I believe a homesteading program would be a good idea??? first I wasnt talking about social security which it appears you are. I was talking about the starving in general. Second social security was never a trust fund, the money was never saved for you. Surely you knew this?? you paid into it, and it went to people who were collecting it while you paid into it. How about I turn the tables are you expecting My generation to raise their contributions and let you collect more then you paid into it??? (as some suggest) third medicare and social security will likely be slashed, if you dont realize that by now Id change my plans ASAP if I were you. 4th If you relied on SS for retirement, dont be angry at me if it fades away I paid into it for 18-19 years now myself and never expected to collect a dime. Heck even if you do get the cash it will likely be heavily inflated to the point its a fraction of its current value.

Anyway, how does me giving you an idea that isnt very common imply to you that I need expansion past my own circle???? that doesnt even make a shred of sense. If I was in your shoes Id be gathering folks now and building something to ensure I had a warm bed and warm food if these sociial systems fail, because i seems rather likely....

I first heard that snippet about SS in one of my econ classes last year...first time I had ever heard it, but I checked it out on the SS website, and that confirmed it. The "trust fund" is just an account from which benefits are paid. There is no "cookie jar" filling up with money as time goes on. "Trust fund" is really a bad misnomer.

[WizardTN]

first I wasnt talking about social security which it appears you are. I was talking about the starving in general. Second social security was never a trust fund, the money was never saved for you.

The snippet quoted was from a post that WAS about SSI.

i have nothing against a "homesteading" or any other program that requires an able bodied person to "earn" what they recieve in welfare benefits.

What I am tired of is the constant reference to SSI as an "entitlement program" with an almost always negative connotation. If the govt. had left it alone to do what it was supposed to have done and earned money on it's investments it probably would be in even better shape than it supposedly is "on paper" today.

reference:
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/fundFAQ.html

Article that I gave up trying to follow all the comments on:
http://blogs.forbes.com/merrillmatthews ... rust-fund/

[Treetop]

first I wasnt talking about social security which it appears you are. I was talking about the starving in general. Second social security was never a trust fund, the money was never saved for you.

The snippet quoted was from a post that WAS about SSI.

i have nothing against a "homesteading" or any other program that requires an able bodied person to "earn" what they recieve in welfare benefits.

Actually you might want to go reread the post I quoted. It starts with talking about the hungry in general and this persons contention a benevolent government does something. I was writing towards that point.... that seemed to be much more of a dominate point then SS itself because it starts and finishes with that thought then goes in another direction. I basically quoted the "conclusion" sentence of that line of thought in the post.

<<<<<<<<<<I do believe it's the mark of a benevolent and moral government to do what it can to assist people who would otherwise starve to death. But, while handouts provide a fix in the short run, they create long run problems because of the nature of people. You guarantee a person an income in later years and you create dis-incentives to be financially prudent during their working years. The savings rate plummeted and has never really recovered since SSI was established. Fully 3 out of 4 SS recipients are either totally or mostly dependent on those checks to keep eating, of course not the original intention of the program. I'm not sure where along the line people were convinced that they could consume their way to wealth, like you mentioned RR (you liberal scoundrel:) )

So, if you're the government, what do you do? Many people don't have family support (for a whole host of reasons), where else can they go? Do we let them starve, even if their problems were of their own making (which many of them are)?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As for social security, i have my views, but it hardly matters. If your thinking you can rely on them indefinitely I think you will find thats not likely to happen.