JPMorgan Has Succeeded

[beauanderos]

If, as Jeffrey Nielsen of BullionbullsCanada.com wrote last month, one of JPMorgan's goals, in addition to price suppression, is to create such volatility that it scares investors away from silver, then it appears they may have succeeded. WE, on this site, are the informed, with consummate knowledge of the reasons we should invest in precious metals, and many of us have been doing so for years. But there has been a change in the mental climate as I perceive it. Optimism is dwindling. We used to see posts anytime the markets ignited to a riproaring start in overnight training, but it seems we have all become inured to adrenalin rushes as, time after time, until we have become programmed, JPMorgat et al have pulled the rug out from under us. We all sense that any rally is illusionary and that TPTB will cap it at certain points... and go even further to do their damnedest to unwind it. November and December are traditionally strong PM's months, yet what are we doing? Are we ascending to new heights? No. Because of the bankers without fathers we are trending sideways or downwards, within a rigged market. I hope Sprott is successful in convincing some miners to hold back a portion of their production... cuz this constant manipulation is sure getting old.

[silverflake]

beauanderos, you speak wisdom and you say what many may be thinking. But please, my metalstacking friend, do not give up or give in. I remember during the stock market rush of the 90's when I was buying walking liberty halves and begging for the price of silver to break $8/ounce - I thought that day would never come. Now, I know that JP Morgan is rigging the system but still, we've come far (or put another way, the economies of the world have sunk low). It's up to us to spread the word too. If we tell 10 people about what's going on and only one listens then we have made headway.

Patience. Keep learning, keep teaching, keep the faith and keep stacking.

[baggerman]

Patience will win out in the end. I have PMs I have held since the 80s that today have value unlike the Worldcom stock I once owned and lost every penny.

[beauanderos]

Patience will win out in the end. I have PMs I have held since the 80s that today have value unlike the Worldcom stock I once owned and lost every penny.

I rode Enron most of the way down (actually bought at about $10 tho, after it had started around $80)

[beauanderos]

beauanderos, you speak wisdom and you say what many may be thinking. But please, my metalstacking friend, do not give up or give in. I remember during the stock market rush of the 90's when I was buying walking liberty halves and begging for the price of silver to break $8/ounce - I thought that day would never come. Now, I know that JP Morgan is rigging the system but still, we've come far (or put another way, the economies of the world have sunk low). It's up to us to spread the word too. If we tell 10 people about what's going on and only one listens then we have made headway.

Patience. Keep learning, keep teaching, keep the faith and keep stacking.

I'm not giving up by any means, it's just discouraging. You can't get excited by rallies anymore because, in the back of your mind, you have the sneaking suspicion it will just be snatched away. I do paper trading now, with a system designed to take advantage of da boyz moves.

[barrytrot]

This is one of a few reasons why "fake-silver" actually has a lot of benefits!

When it is a little low, like now, you can just sell a couple naked puts below spot and collect some interest on your money with nearly zero risk.

And if you want to get out of your position high or low a transaction takes 5 seconds as opposed to boxing and shipping.


That said, I believe physical silver IS IMPORTANT, but there is money to be made in the fake-silver realm!

[justj2k78]

Meh. I suppose I don't get caught up in the whos and whys of the market. Just keep making sure that I'm growing my stack. In a short time it's gone from small to "relatively-small". I'd go insane if I tried to guess the short-term moves, and attempt to profit off of them. I just tune it out, get what I like, and keep moving towards financial security.

[68Camaro]

Patience will win out in the end. I have PMs I have held since the 80s that today have value unlike the Worldcom stock I once owned and lost every penny.

I rode Enron most of the way down (actually bought at about $10 tho, after it had started around $80)

Hey, Enron AND Worldcom here... However, they were inherited stocks and it took me 2-3 months to get full control of them from when Mom died in Oct 2001, and by the time I got control to sell them they were worthless.

Yeah, I know it is discouraging in the moment, but this is just a moment in time. The shortage will hit, plus I think the commodity exchanges are going to go under anyway, making this manipulation impossible at that point.

[hejira11]

I have seen a disenchantment come over many that are as new to Silver as I am. I am coming up on the 1 year anniversary of my first physical silver purchase. I agree that whatever computer program they have controlling the markets is well worth it's weight in silver. Having said that, it was the fundamental of Silver...most metals actually, and the advice and support from the fine folks here that brought me to this point. I am exited about the future of the metals, not so enthused about our Dollar.

[Mossy]

Just gives us more time to buy more silver, at a lower cost.

[OneBiteAtATime]

Calm before the storm.

[Chief]

Rome wasn't built in a day. Also, 'when in Rome...'

[JerrySpringer]

Meh. I suppose I don't get caught up in the whos and whys of the market. Just keep making sure that I'm growing my stack. In a short time it's gone from small to "relatively-small". I'd go insane if I tried to guess the short-term moves, and attempt to profit off of them. I just tune it out, get what I like, and keep moving towards financial security.

One can always take their mind off silver by getting more focused on gathering copper. It is not as enticing because the spot metal value is nominally only about 2x face, but sorting copper cents is much easier than agonizing over silver price and the marketplace's gaming of it. I think it would be much better to have some fungible cash vis a vis copper cents in storage as a major way to diversify and still keep some gunpowder dry if silver prices head back down. Seeing how silver has grown 7-fold in price since it took off in ca. 2004, one can not discount how much of that was due to dollar inflation perhaps? Compare with real estate prices taking off and now trying to regress back down. My whole take is that if you like silver, then DCA into it and plan to hold it for decades.

[TwoPenniesEarned]

One can always take their mind off silver by getting more focused on gathering copper.

Well said.

[Beau]

If, as Jeffrey Nielsen of BullionbullsCanada.com wrote last month, one of JPMorgan's goals, in addition to price suppression, is to create such volatility that it scares investors away from silver, then it appears they may have succeeded. WE, on this site, are the informed, with consummate knowledge of the reasons we should invest in precious metals, and many of us have been doing so for years. But there has been a change in the mental climate as I perceive it. Optimism is dwindling. We used to see posts anytime the markets ignited to a riproaring start in overnight training, but it seems we have all become inured to adrenalin rushes as, time after time, until we have become programmed, JPMorgat et al have pulled the rug out from under us. We all sense that any rally is illusionary and that TPTB will cap it at certain points... and go even further to do their damnedest to unwind it. November and December are traditionally strong PM's months, yet what are we doing? Are we ascending to new heights? No. Because of the bankers without fathers we are trending sideways or downwards, within a rigged market. I hope Sprott is successful in convincing some miners to hold back a portion of their production... cuz this constant manipulation is sure getting old.

.
beauandreous,
JP MORGAN has not succeeded.
you are the last one that I ever thought you would give up.
man you are our cheerleader.
don`t give up just keep stacking.
there will be ups and downs, highs and lows.
now get on your Dallas Cowboys cheer leader uniform and tell us how mush you think PM`s will go up next week or next month.

GOOD LUCK Beau

.

[silverflake]

JP Morgan will fail. The bigger they are the harder they fall.

Look on the bright side, the manipulative price suppression by these big boys has made it possible for us 'seers' to accumulate more at a price that hasn't exploded yet. We are with you beauanderos, just hang with us.

[rexmerdinus]

In a short time it's gone from small to "relatively-small".

You mean relatively large, relative to small. Right?

[beauanderos]

The point that I'm trying to make is not that I have become hopeless... but that I have become discouraged from enjoying rallies. If the constant manipulation can do that to US, then imagine how someone must feel who is on the fence about investing in silver? What I was saying was... it's not just me, from what I observe. It seems like it's been months since anyone posted a thread about how well silver started out the day, with comments about how much higher will it go? Everyone seems to sense that any rally will be stopped cold in it's tracks. I can't wait till JPMorgan gets their A$$ handed to them, but even if/when that happens, they will weasel their way out of it because they are "too big to fail." So silver will rise... but when it does it doesn't necessarily mean that the evil ones will suffer. I'm even beginning to wonder if MFGlobal was intentional to take out 100,000 "players" from the picture.

[68Camaro]

Interesting thing is the world-wide silver market is (hate to say it like this) almost trivial in size (at the moment), in the larger scheme of things. USA (Fed) has spent TRILLIONS over the last several years, and for that they could have bought the entire worldwise silver market literally 50 times over. Even gold is not - by itself - a dominant financial market. However, their prices are signs of confidence, or lack thereof. And TPTB realize that if gold and silver were allowed to rise to their historical values, that the combined knock-on effect would end their ability to control. If gold and silver were allowed to go to (let's argue), 16,000 and 1,000 per oz, respectively, the total value of their markets would be inherently uncontrollable in the way they are being manipulated today. The dollar (or whatever a future currency is called) would be denominated in an amount of grams of gold (as it used to be), rather than gold denominated in dollars (as it is today).

And that's the issue - control. Fiat money = TPTB control. Gold-based money = lack of TPTB control, because they can't print gold, there is a finite amount of it in the world, and it is increasingly difficult to obtain from the earth.

Yes, hard to get excited about small rallies, because the fluctuations of +/-20% in silver, and +/-5% in gold, have become "normal". Those levels are currently within abiltlies of TPTB to control. We will have to breakout to the high side before I get strongly excited again. And I believe it is coming. Just have to be patient. On the long-term scale, this is just a bump, and we've seen this or worse before.

[Sheikh_yer_Bu'Tay]

Calling Jonflyfish, calling Jonflyfish... Beauanderos needs a pep talk.

JFF has recently predicted the price of spot silver will go DOWN before we have the rallies you guys want to see. With the Euro becoming toilet paper, there is a flight to safety in FRN's. With FRN's strengthening, the spot Ag will go down. All the FRN's being printed by the Fed are also being sucked up by the Fed and it's crony banksters. They are not spreading it around, so there is no increase in velocity of currency. We have stagflation (some things inflate while others deflate).

I personally predicted Ag would drop to $25 before it does it's next serious climb up to $50. It didn't close at $25, but it did drop to $25 and then bounce back up. I can see spot Ag closing below that before the next trend up.

What I know for sure is that the Fed has not exhausted it's ability to print FRN without a negative impact yet. The manipulation in paper PM's has not been exhausted yet. When we finally reach that tipping point.... all of you are going to be so happy you hold PM's and other hard assets!!

[68Camaro]

Regardless of who predicted what/when (cause I don't want to get into or create a pissing contest here), let me attempt to state the problem (at least the one that I struggle with) - sometimes defining the problem clearly helps in the solution. Generally, it is how does one best optimize limited resources so as to come out on the other side of a negative event in the best possible shape? Specifically, at some future TBD point, before this TBD calamitous event occurs, I desire to maximize my physical holdings of PM.

Not an easy task, but that's what I am trying to do. It crosses boundaries into philosophy of life and world view as well as political and social views. I'm not giving the solution here, just stating my dilemma, which may be the same for other folk.

For me, I have two potentially contrary desires. a) I have paper PM in a 401K (and has to be kept there, for the moment, for good reason - not going to repeat myself on the why of it but I've stated it several times) - that paper PM can be traded for the purpose of increasing FRNs which might come available to me at some future point, if the system hasn't collapsed by then, and if FRNs still have any value by then. b) I have physical PM, and can choose to sell this and/or buy more, as I see fit, over time, within my resource limits.

I anticipate physical PM being worth significantly more in the more distant future, while unfortunately fluctuating up and down in the meantime, tied to spot price, with a long-term trendline up, and with the gold and silver ratio changing over time. I also anticipate the paper PM price (at least SLV/GLD) disconnecting from physical at some point. This because there is much more paper "PM" than actual real "PM" in the world, and at some future date people are going to place greater value on what they physically possess and significantly discount that which they can't touch.

I expect that (regardless of intermediate dips and spikes) there will come a time when a crash will briefly send everything falling. Briefly. And on the other side of this event things may be different in the world. But regardless, people will have to have their assets in something. Basically, it will have to be in either stocks, bonds, cash, or commodities (or paper instruments that equate to any of those). There will be a flight to cash, initially. And there will come a shortage of literal FRNs, for a time. Then what? Price of PM will technically fall, as based on spot. But price of physical PM will skyrocket, quickly. That's when you don't care about the price of spot, and you want to actually already hold physical. Because at that time, there will be no one selling any. If you don't have it then, you won't be getting any at a reasonable price. And that is when FRNs will start to become worthless, practically speaking.

[neilgin1]

Raymundo,
there are two events that cemented my view that silver is going to $130. the first was in Feb, or March..it was involving march 11 silver, and we had reports of a group of smaller raptor hedge funds, intimating they were going to stand for delivery NO MATTER WHAT....and do you remember what happened? these boys got a letter that said they two choices, 'either accept $50 FRN an ounce, or we'll default, and you'll be listed as an unsecured creditor, last in line..take your pick'....so they pulled their fangs back in, took the 50 FRN an ounce, and never traded silver again....look at the open interest......which leads to the second thing thats happened. MF Global and Corzine, and to a greater extent, the CME, regarding a certain missing 1.2 bln $ in customer SEGREGATED funds. i personally know a half dozen guys, had MF accounts, sizes ranging from mid five to upper six digits in said account, who have been told by counsel, they'll be lucky to see a dime on a dollar, years from now. This is a HUGE story, and its not really talked about. Not the half a dozen guys i know, but the very fact the CME, THE NEXT DAY, did not issue a press release stating all customer accounts, would be made good, 100 cents on the dollar by the CME. Thats the sole reason for the exchange to exist!!!....its like a stay at home wife saying to hubby, 'i need a hundred dollars for groceries, and i need to have my boat rocked tonight'...and the hubby says, 'sorry, aint got no money and my johnson dont get stiff no mo".......whats that wife gonna say?........shes gonna shout, 'well what good are ya for anyway?!?...nothing! He's good for nothing!...same for the CME----good for nothing! why trade?...trust is now gone, and whats happpened is this, every single liquid active futures market in the US has banded up, traded in narrow band, AND volumne has gone down at least 50%, as well as open interest, though i cant ascertain a percentage number on that. Ray, i'm talking about grains, food and fibers, the meat complex, petroleum complex, all moribund. the upside cant in crude is the war premium.

you'll be good.

[68Camaro]

Great to hear from you again Neil... Good words. I've been reading on really bad things about side affects from this spreading, and it is after reading about those instances that I started getting a larger view of what futures trading does for the market. It literally makes so much possible that we take for granted. Conversely, shut it down, and there is a lot that can't happen, to the extent that farmers can't put seed in the ground - literally. I'm not sure that those in the know appreciate how bad the negative side affects from this can be. But yeah - YOU were one of the first, if not THE first (not that you need the credit) that I heard talk about the real meaning of the CME response. Don't go too far from us dude. We need your perspective. Thanks!

[beauanderos]

Silver price pessimism bottoming out ready for the next big rally

http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1323542928.php

[neilgin1]

Great to hear from you again Neil... Good words. I've been reading on really bad things about side affects from this spreading, and it is after reading about those instances that I started getting a larger view of what futures trading does for the market. It literally makes so much possible that we take for granted. Conversely, shut it down, and there is a lot that can't happen, to the extent that farmers can't put seed in the ground - literally. I'm not sure that those in the know appreciate how bad the negative side affects from this can be. But yeah - YOU were one of the first, if not THE first (not that you need the credit) that I heard talk about the real meaning of the CME response. Don't go too far from us dude. We need your perspective. Thanks!

very kind of you to say that 68. ...the CME. not a surprise, but a vast disappointment. though i dont live in that world anymore, i want to be careful about what i write, except to say i'm not "throwing darts" when i say, 'get out of all paper vehicles of trade'. You wouldnt believe the number of calls i got on 9/11/2001...why do i bring that up? in 85, i was a member of the CME, we had moved into our new bldg, there were seven floors of underground garage below the two huge trading floors. i went on a holy tear, just breaking balls about the total lack of security, in our 7 story garage. was told, 'shut up, you're paranoid', etc...the reason i bring THAT up is i also saw a LOT of financial tomchicanery, on the floor. But what was i going to do? RAT?...i was a 25 year old kid, alone, not covered, not with a 'crew'. i never took the foul fruit of this theivery, but i wasnt going to rat anybody. in the ensuing years, all this thievery has gone so high up the foodchain, so entrenched, its institutionalized klepto-'capitalism'....and what can ANY individual do about it? look what happened to Frank Serpico...nuff said, thanks bud, neil